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Curious about raids and dungeons.

I have been following AoC loosely ever since the initial kickstarted, watching some videos here and there and reading some things, I am getting more and more interested as time goes on. I have heard the game will have raid and dungeon content but I am curious about it, I know we have seen open world dungeons but will there be instanced dungeons? Will there be instanced raids? What will the player size for raids be? I think 20 is generally the best number. I also hope to see new types of pve instanced content. I realize this game is going for a sandbox but personally, I like it when games can be both. Any answers would be appreciated, thank you!
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Comments

  • There will be open world dungeons and raids. To a lesser extent there will be instanced dungeons and instanced raids. Content is being balanced around groups of 8 for dungeons and raids are up to 40. Content will not be available to everyone all the time. Certain types of content/bosses will have to be cleared before other content becomes available in a raid setting. They are going with many different styles, not just a single treadmill progression of raid advancement. Some people may never see a certain dungeon depending on what node you are near and the decisions made during node advancement. The game is not a true sandbox or a true themepark. The word being tossed around for lingo is "Themebox"
  • Also realize that there are going to be some live spur of the moment raids (see the most DCN live-stream).    

    We don't have all the details but I think some good examples would be FATES from FFXIV, the siege of the main city from FFXI and Treasure of Aht Urgan, or RIFTS from RIFT...at least that's sorta how I see it in my head.   
  • There will be open world dungeons and raids. To a lesser extent there will be instanced dungeons and instanced raids. Content is being balanced around groups of 8 for dungeons and raids are up to 40. Content will not be available to everyone all the time. Certain types of content/bosses will have to be cleared before other content becomes available in a raid setting. They are going with many different styles, not just a single treadmill progression of raid advancement. Some people may never see a certain dungeon depending on what node you are near and the decisions made during node advancement. The game is not a true sandbox or a true themepark. The word being tossed around for lingo is "Themebox"
    Well that about covers it, what he said! :trollface:
  • Jahlon said:
    Also realize that there are going to be some live spur of the moment raids (see the most DCN live-stream).    

    We don't have all the details but I think some good examples would be FATES from FFXIV, the siege of the main city from FFXI and Treasure of Aht Urgan, or RIFTS from RIFT...at least that's sorta how I see it in my head.   
    I do love dynamic content and world raids, but I think a good flow of instanced raids with meaningful progression is crucial for an mmorpg.
  • Static instanced raids are only crucial for MMORPGs with an endgame.
    Which, hopefully, Ashes will not have.
  • Dygz said:
    Static instanced raids are only crucial for MMORPGs with an endgame.
    Which, hopefully, Ashes will not have.
    This makes no sense.

    "End game" is what players do when they reach the level cap.

    An MMO can do one of two things - offer players something to do at the level cap in order to keep players playing (and paying). Taking this option means there is an end game.

    The second thing they can do is not offer players anything they can do at the level cap, meaning players will simply level up and then play something else as there is nothing left to do. I've never seen an MMO that does this.
  • Noaani said:
    Dygz said:
    Static instanced raids are only crucial for MMORPGs with an endgame.
    Which, hopefully, Ashes will not have.
    This makes no sense.

    "End game" is what players do when they reach the level cap.

    I think end game more applies to a max-level experience in which you can say, "I have achieved all that there is to do right now", such as full completion of current mythic tier in WoW as an example. 

    I think the goal in mind for Ashes, at least in regard to all I've read thus far, is that the game stays so fluid that the content available to you one day is not the content available to you the next, thus making it next to impossible to say you've done everything before the next patch. In this respect, there is no viable finish line to the "end game" offered giving it a very different feel to the max-level experience many of us from other MMO's might be used to.
  • Noaani said:
    Dygz said:
    Static instanced raids are only crucial for MMORPGs with an endgame.
    Which, hopefully, Ashes will not have.
    This makes no sense.

    "End game" is what players do when they reach the level cap.

    I think end game more applies to a max-level experience in which you can say, "I have achieved all that there is to do right now", such as full completion of current mythic tier in WoW as an example. 

    I think the goal in mind for Ashes, at least in regard to all I've read thus far, is that the game stays so fluid that the content available to you one day is not the content available to you the next, thus making it next to impossible to say you've done everything before the next patch. In this respect, there is no viable finish line in sight to the "end game" offered.
  • Noaani said:
    Dygz said:
    Static instanced raids are only crucial for MMORPGs with an endgame.
    Which, hopefully, Ashes will not have.
    This makes no sense.

    "End game" is what players do when they reach the level cap.

    I think end game more applies to a max-level experience in which you can say, "I have achieved all that there is to do right now", such as full completion of current mythic tier in WoW as an example. 

    I think the goal in mind for Ashes, at least in regard to all I've read thus far, is that the game stays so fluid that the content available to you one day is not the content available to you the next, thus making it next to impossible to say you've done everything before the next patch. In this respect, there is no viable finish line in sight to the "end game" offered.
  • I hope there are no instanced stuff, i cant stand those people who play games to never experience the other half of the game because all they do is 100% safe instanced dungeons....

    Even though its their decision, instanced stuff kills games super fast, especially open world games where you need to fill those big maps with people, and you struggling because everyone sitting in the instanced portion and the rest have nothing to interact with.
  • Endgame is when you have reached max level and you are stuck repeating the same dungeons and raids and dailies over and over and over and over again while you wait 2 years for the devs to provide new content.

    According to the Ashes game design, nodes will continue to provide new content even after max level, so Ashes does not have an endgame.
    Ashes will have max level content. Sure.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    In my opinion, anything instanced is the worst thing for an MMORPG. MMO used to be about an actual open world where anyone would be able to access any area at any time. Players had to figure out and settle between themselves who benefits from each area. It was like you took similar big open world from an RPG like The Elder Scrolls, or Gothic, enlarge that world, and put massive amount of players inside the one world to interact with each other. Where player can find someone else on his adventure, not only dumb NPC defined earlier. Instanced content literally kills that idea.
  • Dygz said:
    Endgame is when you have reached max level and you are stuck repeating the same dungeons and raids and dailies over and over and over and over again while you wait 2 years for the devs to provide new content.
    That is *BAD* endgame, not *ALL* endgame.

  • Imo introducing mix of open world and instanced dungeons/raids is only a good thing. It will cater wider audiance. We have to remember, that maybe there ain't both options available at the same time and it depends situation of the node what kind of content is available. This part is the most interesting what it comes to PvE side of Ashes.

    However, will there be something more than just nodes to spice up PvE content? Because dungeons and raids are kind of basic stuff of MMORPG's and something new would be nice to have.

    What if we mix a little bit.. What about a large scale PvE Battleground where players attacks or defends certain objective against mobs or monsters? Or could there be some kind of PvP raid? *thinking*
  • Noaani said:
    Dygz said:
    Endgame is when you have reached max level and you are stuck repeating the same dungeons and raids and dailies over and over and over and over again while you wait 2 years for the devs to provide new content.
    That is *BAD* endgame, not *ALL* endgame.

    Nope that is endgame.
    Ashes doesn't have an endgame because the "game" doesn't end at max level.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Mentors could of course hand hold new players through level 50 content too.
    In which case you can do level 50 content pretty sharpish if not on day 1.

    Depends if level 50 means I have a few more skills and am 50x more powerful or if level 50 means I am only twice as powerful with a whole plethora of skills to pick from and combine with other group members.

    How things have traditionally been done, is not necessarily how it will be done in Ashes. And almost certainly not in most cases.

    All we can say is that there is openworld and instanced, but their structure is unknown as is the nature of the levelling system.
  • Levels are a measure of vertical progression.
    And horizontal progression will continue even at max level.

    Plus, Steven indicated that Level 50 is at least 10 times more powerful than a Level 1, since he stated that if a Level 50 kills a Level 1 non-combatant the Corruption gain will be the equivalent of killing 10 Level 50s.
  • Dygz said:
    Levels are a measure of vertical progression.
    And horizontal progression will continue even at max level.

    Plus, Steven indicated that Level 50 is at least 10 times more powerful than a Level 1, since he stated that if a Level 50 kills a Level 1 non-combatant the Corruption gain will be the equivalent of killing 10 Level 50s.
    Has he stated anything like that ? I know the corruption system penalty as you stated, but that doesnt imply any relationship to the magnitude of the level power gap in any way shape or form.
  • Dygz said:
    Noaani said:
    Dygz said:
    Endgame is when you have reached max level and you are stuck repeating the same dungeons and raids and dailies over and over and over and over again while you wait 2 years for the devs to provide new content.
    That is *BAD* endgame, not *ALL* endgame.

    Nope that is endgame.
    Ashes doesn't have an endgame because the "game" doesn't end at max level.
    Neither does AA. Neither does BDO. Neither does EQ2. Honestly, neither does WoW, even though all it offers at the level cap is bad endgame.

    You are getting "endgame" and "WoW's endgame" mixed up.

    Look at AA, it has contested PvP content, PvP events, open dungeons AND instanced dungeons as it's endgame - on top of it being perfectly viable to carry on with other non-endgame activities while at the level cap (unlike WoW-ish games)

    It is literally a game that never ends in exactly the same manner that AoC will be a game that never ends. Yet it still has endgame content.

    Any content that a player can't reasonably expect to participate in until they are at the level cap - whether PvP, PvE, PvX or even crafting - is endgame content.

    If AoC has a quest that can't be started until you are a max level blacksmith (which I hope it does), that is endgame content.
  • There is always some kind of end-game or the game will just end. Themepark games usually have end-game content created around lore. In sandbox games players creates the end-game content by themselfs and game just gives the frames. So if Ashes is a hybrid then i suppose we are going to see some kind of mix of end-game, where game will give us something lorewise content, but leaves space for players too. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    I haven't played AA or BDO, so I can't really comment on those.
    WoW certainly does end at max level. You reach max level and then you repeat the existing content over and over and over and over and over again for a couple of years while you wait for the next expansion.
    That is endgame.

    I don't know what people do in AA or BDO while the wait for new content.
    If the instanced dungeons are repeatable and static - repeatedly killing the same boss, that is endgame. If the content in the dungeons are dynamic with new mobs an new bosses appearing in them, that is not endgame.

    If it were a game that never ends, the word endgame would not have been used to reference max-level gameplay.
    Endgame content is static content that players can repeat while waiting for new content to be implemented by the devs.
  • Dygz said:
    I haven't played AA or BDO, so I can't really comment on those.
    WoW certainly does end at max level. You reach max level and then you repeat the existing content over and over and over and over and over again for a couple of years while you wait for the next expansion.
    That is endgame.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say all (or at least 90%) of your MMO experience is from WoW.

    The reason I say this is because almost all of your opinions are tainted by the poor design that game has. You take terms that are fairly generic in the MMO world and only think of them in terms that only apply to WoW. 

    Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with only (or mostly) having played WoW, just try really hard to remember that if this is the case, your perspective is somewhat limited.

    In non-WoW games, endgame is what you do when you get to the level cap that you were unable to reasonably do before then. It is not inherently static - even though it sometimes can be. It is not inherently repetitive - even though it sometimes can be.

    Your experience of endgame content may well be static and repetitive, but don't taint all MMO's with WoW's bad design.
  • Well. You would, as usual, be wrong.

  • Dygz said:
    Well. You would, as usual, be wrong.
    I doubt that very much.

    Literally everything you say only relates to WoW, and you seem to think that is the only way to do things.

    If (and I say that with serious doubt) you have played an MMO that is not WoW, I will guarantee it will be a WoW clone.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    hahahaha
    Of course, you are wrong about stuff so often, it doesn't really matter what you think.
    But, thanks for playing.
    I haven't played an MMO other than Landmark since NWO.
    That much is true.
  • You guys take the arguing elsewhere it has nothing to do with the post itself, if you have your own opinion about what endgame is and is not then great but stop pushing that way of thinking onto others.
  • Dygz said:
    hahahaha
    Of course, you are wrong about stuff so often, it doesn't really matter what you think.
    But, thanks for playing.
    I haven't played an MMO other than Landmark since NWO.
    That much is true.
    Landmark?

    That's actually quite funny.

    First, even SoE (pre-Daybreak) didn't originally consider Landmark a game - it was a showcase of the tech to be used with EQN, and transitioned to be used to help lower EQN development costs by getting players to develop structures. Daybreak "released" it purely as an attempt to make some money, nothing more.

    I'm embarrassed for you for thinking Landmark was even a game, let alone an MMORPG.

    NWO was an MMO, a poor one, but an MMO.
  • Yeah, I love dungeons in particular large dungeons. and I love that Intrepid plans to make them both Open world and Instanced since some bosses require such attention that they would become impossible if other players could interfere and hinder the attack. On the other Hand, when bosses are a bit easier, I love to add the intrigue and danger of maybe getting jumped by an enemy group of players.

    I'm sure this will be tuned and changed during the testing phases but man am I excited to see how they pull it off.

    as for the people that are at each other's throats here, please. The topic here is not Endgame, there is a topic debating what Endgame is here. Also, you guys are, right now, just having an offtopic conversation among you two. please have your conversation in private
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Noaani said:
    Dygz said:
    hahahaha
    Of course, you are wrong about stuff so often, it doesn't really matter what you think.
    But, thanks for playing.
    I haven't played an MMO other than Landmark since NWO.
    That much is true.
    Landmark?

    That's actually quite funny.

    First, even SoE (pre-Daybreak) didn't originally consider Landmark a game - it was a showcase of the tech to be used with EQN, and transitioned to be used to help lower EQN development costs by getting players to develop structures. Daybreak "released" it purely as an attempt to make some money, nothing more.

    I'm embarrassed for you for thinking Landmark was even a game, let alone an MMORPG.

    NWO was an MMO, a poor one, but an MMO.
    NWO is an MMORPG.
    I am well aware of what Landmark was and was not.
    I typically would say that I haven't played an MMORPG since NWO, but lots of people here know me from Landmark.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Dygz said:
    Noaani said:

    NWO was an MMO, a poor one, but an MMO.
    NWO is an MMORPG.
    Oh look, we agree!

    If we were to now say that your MMO experience is WoW, NWO and Landmark (lol), it wouldn't change my initial assumption made in regards to your comments and assumptions being somewhat limited by limited MMO experience.
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