On "Glamour"

T-ElfT-Elf Member alpha-stress-tester
edited June 6 in Dev Journal Reactions
In the Live Stream June 4th, it was discussed that even with appearance gear that was different from what one would expect for certain classes, that there would be a way to know what that character is actually wearing underneath.  Unless that is done with an inspection mechanic like in EQ2, I don't like the idea.  Part of playing smart, especially in a game with PvP, is figuring things out and surprise.  My thought is that deception is part of the "mystery" of the game, and the fun.


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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member alpha-0-rank
    While I agree that playing smart is an important part of PvP, I don't personally think a system designed specifically (exclusively) for in game vanity should be open to PvP use/abuse.

    Personally, I'd like to see a clientside choice, where players can check any one of the following to determine what is shown on other characters.

    Show cosmetic appearance.
    Show cosmetic appearance if same item type as inventory.
    Show inventory items only.

    I seem to remember the developers saying that they don't want an inspect character mechanic in Ashes, though I don't have the quote on hand, and it may well have been a Bacon quote. If no such mechanic exists, at the very least, players should be able to tell the armor and weapon type a potential foe is using.

    In my mind, if you want to be really smart and fool people in PvP, wear actual plate armor as a mage, or be a robe wearing ranger. Just using appearance is kind of cheap in my mind.
  • UnknownSystemErrorUnknownSystemError Member alpha-stress-tester
    @Noaani You are correct about the no inspect character quote and it was from Steven during a livestream, so we can take it as official until he states otherwise. I would link the relevant livestream, but I have decided that people can look stuff up themselves. Tired of putting out information as we know it and then having the person whose viewpoint it doesn't fit then come back and say "Well, you may have that quote, but he could always change his mind. My opinion is better......"
  • NoaaniNoaani Member alpha-0-rank
    Tired of putting out information as we know it and then having the person whose viewpoint it doesn't fit then come back and say "Well, you may have that quote, but he could always change his mind. My opinion is better......"
    While it's a loss to the community, having seen some of this happening, I can understand your frustration.

    Some people seem to get confused between a debate on a topic that we don't have much info on, and discussion about something we have solid info on.
  • LoyhetaLoyheta Member, Alpha 1 Stress Test alpha-stress-tester
    Show cosmetic in cities
    Show cosmetic at all times
    Hide cosmetic while flagged
  • T-ElfT-Elf Member alpha-stress-tester
    The inspection I was talking about would show a window in which you could see what the character has equipped as in what they are actually wearing and what they are wearing as appearance.  It doesn't need to show stats.  You will notice I did not advocate for an inspection window.  What I like is you see what that player wants you to see.

    But since there will be no inspection how do you suppose they will communicate to other players what toons are actually wearing?


  • UnknownSystemErrorUnknownSystemError Member alpha-stress-tester
    Don't know what they plan to come up with, but they need to walk a fine line. The original argument why they were going with no inspection was that it promotes elitism. The pvp crowd is pushing for it because they want to know more easily which targets to attack, and the pve crowd will use it as a way to gate content and invites. I am sure that there will be conversations of "Remove your cosmetics so we can see what gear you are wearing or you can't play with us." planned already, which I hope any sensible person tells said group to go fuck themselves.
  • T-ElfT-Elf Member alpha-stress-tester
    Hmmm I thought the inspection Intrepid was against had to do with stats, but I can see where you are coming from just looking at gear.  I'm sure those type of guild/groups will make players manually type out all that info anyway.


  • McStackersonMcStackerson Member alpha-stress-tester
    I'm imaging them doing something similar to archeage where you get a visible buff related to the gear you're wearing.
  • LoyhetaLoyheta Member, Alpha 1 Stress Test alpha-stress-tester
    Honestly... why the hell should I or anyone care about this? Are you really only going to engage enemies with cloth armor? Are you going to change your weapon loadout depending on who you are fighting? Seriously though, who cares? They don't display health or resources numbers so why would they display magical or physical damage reduction? You either fight them or don't. You make a judgement call off of their class or what you know of them. 

    People can moan on about not seeing what they are wearing as not being fair but so what? I would go more off of what their class is anyways. Because in the end who knows... maybe your heavy armor won't cut it against magical damage and surprise, that fighter is subbing mage and doing a lot of magical damage.
  • Digital_WindDigital_Wind Member, Alpha 1 Stress Test alpha-stress-tester
    edited June 8
    There is a very easy solution - under the players name could be a small symbol denoting their base class or potentially the base and the Archetype.

    For example, a slinkly looking lady in cosmetic dress has a little Blue Shield under her name - Tank.


    Sometimes...when you've been bashing your head against a wall for hours trying to take down a boss and it seems like you will never progress - all you need is a breath of fresh Digital_Wind.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member alpha-0-rank
    I'm imaging them doing something similar to archeage where you get a visible buff related to the gear you're wearing.
    This is something I considered, but my main reason for not being a huge proponent for it is because I like the game world itself to provide me with information, resorting to using the UI only when necessary.

    I don't personally consider it necessary in this situation.
    There is a very easy solution - under the players name could be a small symbol denoting their base class or potentially the base and the Archetype.

    For example, a slinkly looking lady in cosmetic dress has a little Blue Shield under her name - Tank.
    This could also work, but is then providing even more information to your potential opponents.
    Loyheta said:
    Are you going to change your weapon loadout depending on who you are fighting?
    Yes.

    To me, a toggle option to only show what equipment a player is wearing - rather than showing cosmetic slot items - only affects the people that check it. I'm all for the idea of always showing cosmetics in towns and such (outside of sieges), but outside of town I am a firm believer that I should know the equipment a character is using simply by looking at the character.

    I believe it was said that Intrepid were discussing this in house as well. I'd actually be really interested to hear what their thoughts on it, what possibilities they have come up with, actually are.
  • GrisuGrisu Member alpha-0-rank
    edited June 8
    For me personally, I don't like the overall picture we get more and more.
    There will also be no API support for exactly that reason "elitism".

    It's as if Elitism will play a major role in the game that decides what one can do. Just looking at past topics at least suggests that, as always and every other game, elitists are just a little sub culture.
    It's as if you have to oblige with elitists the moment they exist.? What?
    First of all, if this game stays true to it's promises, the majority won't care or have even heard of it that you can get a 0.5% theoretical dmg increase by wearing this over that, liek every other game.
    Second, if they do find a broken way of building a character it just points out a flaw in the system faster and more prominently to be brought back in line.

    Just reminds me of the dps meter debate a while back and people faulting the dps meter for bad player behaviour like blaming someone. As if it's the reason people are rotten and don't know basic etiquette.
    I will ask here the same thing I asked back then, do you REALLY think, a PERSON that blames and harasses someone solely based on damage will not find a different reason like first death? It's a rotten person.. nothing else. Search for a better surrounding community.
    And to point something out separately, elitists are not synonymous with those rotten people. From my personal experience, the actual theorycrafters are usually pretty nice people that are just geniunly interested in how stuff works and not to much bothered by human error.

    I don't trust people overall, I don't want to have a nasty surprise, dragging someone through a dungeon he is CLEARLY not equip to run even tho he says he is. (For context, let's say this dungeon is supposed to have a dps check boss in it intended for max level gear (not the best of the best, simply "wearable at max level") and he comes in with equip that is 10 levels below) If I decide to take someone anyway cause I see that the rest of the group is well equiped, it's again thanks to the quick inspection that enables me to make that call without much hassle.

    If there is no quick inspect option, people will rely on having to link their equipment into the chat or are we going to forbid that too cause it can be used for "elitism"? Has been done before and is ,in my opinion, necesery to at least have a fighting chance.

    This obviously assumes that we have challenging content and is pure speculation on my part since we want to "go back to the good old days where everything matters". If it's all just trivial busy work content, well then I guess we won't have to bother with "elitism" anyway. I would call it appropriate preparation tho.

    On the "wearing something else than you are" debate. I don't really care. The moment the first spell/attack is cast I should, with time, know what I am up against and the rest of the time is just figuring out what skills that person chose for his particular style. First hit advantage? Maybe. Do I care. Not in Ashes context since we are at least promised that it will come down to more than just a few hits.
    "I can be your strangest life fulfilling wish." - Grisu
    'I can be your darkest life devouring nightmare.' - aka. Zekece#1819
    Let's build a Nation together.
  • McStackersonMcStackerson Member alpha-stress-tester
    Noaani said:

    To me, a toggle option to only show what equipment a player is wearing - rather than showing cosmetic slot items - only affects the people that check it. I'm all for the idea of always showing cosmetics in towns and such (outside of sieges), but outside of town I am a firm believer that I should know the equipment a character is using simply by looking at the character.

    I believe it was said that Intrepid were discussing this in house as well. I'd actually be really interested to hear what their thoughts on it, what possibilities they have come up with, actually are.
    I don't see a cosmetics toggle as a good option. I've talked about it in another thread but i'm basically against a button that removes a players ability to express them self and nullifies the investment they made into their characters appearance. 

    I also like a minimal, clutter free UI but I don't think adding an extra buff next to the list of buffs and debuffs a player has suddenly makes the UI more cluttered.

    If the buff is a big deal then i'd rather do nothing like Grisu recommended. I also don't think it is a big deal as there isn't much you can do to react.
  • LoyhetaLoyheta Member, Alpha 1 Stress Test alpha-stress-tester
    Noaani said:
    Loyheta said:
    Are you going to change your weapon loadout depending on who you are fighting?
    Yes.

    To me, a toggle option to only show what equipment a player is wearing - rather than showing cosmetic slot items - only affects the people that check it. I'm all for the idea of always showing cosmetics in towns and such (outside of sieges), but outside of town I am a firm believer that I should know the equipment a character is using simply by looking at the character.

    I believe it was said that Intrepid were discussing this in house as well. I'd actually be really interested to hear what their thoughts on it, what possibilities they have come up with, actually are.
    Unless you are going to whisper the person you are attacking and have them tell you their spec and stats I don't understand how looking at them would help. They could have cloth armor that is enchanted with physical damage reduction to where it'd be on par with heavy, same with heavy and magical damage reduction.

    You can see a mage and think, "I'm going to shred through that light armor", but you engage them only to find out the hard way they are subbing tank and are eating your attacks or subbing rogue and shred through yours. I personally don't want to be able to know an enemies sub or be able to tell at a glance what they are enchanted with.

    When it comes to pvp you should be attacking because you are confident in your abilities... not because you can guarantee you will beat them no matter how good they are. Fights should be a surprise and a challenge... not a faceroll case of paper, rock, scissors like other games handle strengths and weaknesses. A main class should be able to take on any other main if they accentuate their strengths or cover their weaknesses properly. A rogue shouldn't always beat a mage. A ranger shouldn't always beat a rogue. etc. 
  • NoaaniNoaani Member alpha-0-rank
    I don't see a cosmetics toggle as a good option. I've talked about it in another thread but i'm basically against a button that removes a players ability to express them self and nullifies the investment they made into their characters appearance. 

    If I don't go to an art exhibition, that doesn't mean the artist is able to claim that he was unable to express himself.

    Likewise, if I have the option to turn off cosmetic appearances, that doesn't alter your ability to express yourself.

    You don't need *MY* eyes to express yourself.
    Loyheta said:

    Unless you are going to whisper the person you are attacking and have them tell you their spec and stats I don't understand how looking at them would help. They could have cloth armor that is enchanted with physical damage reduction to where it'd be on par with heavy, same with heavy and magical damage reduction.

    You can see a mage and think, "I'm going to shred through that light armor", but you engage them only to find out the hard way they are subbing tank and are eating your attacks or subbing rogue and shred through yours. I personally don't want to be able to know an enemies sub or be able to tell at a glance what they are enchanted with.

    When it comes to pvp you should be attacking because you are confident in your abilities... not because you can guarantee you will beat them no matter how good they are. Fights should be a surprise and a challenge... not a faceroll case of paper, rock, scissors like other games handle strengths and weaknesses. A main class should be able to take on any other main if they accentuate their strengths or cover their weaknesses properly. A rogue shouldn't always beat a mage. A ranger shouldn't always beat a rogue. etc. 
    I don't need to know everything about the character that I am fighting. Nor should I.

    However, I should know if the character I am fighting is hitting me with a hammer or with a sword, or if I am swinging my weapon against someone in plate armor or in a robe.

    It shouldn't take anything more than a glance at the character I am fighting for me to be able to discern this basic information, and that is information that should be apparent before any confrontation begins.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member alpha-0-rank
    Grisu said:
    For me personally, I don't like the overall picture we get more and more.
    There will also be no API support for exactly that reason "elitism".

    It's as if Elitism will play a major role in the game that decides what one can do. Just looking at past topics at least suggests that, as always and every other game, elitists are just a little sub culture.
    It's as if you have to oblige with elitists the moment they exist.? What?
    First of all, if this game stays true to it's promises, the majority won't care or have even heard of it that you can get a 0.5% theoretical dmg increase by wearing this over that, liek every other game.
    Second, if they do find a broken way of building a character it just points out a flaw in the system faster and more prominently to be brought back in line.

    Just reminds me of the dps meter debate a while back and people faulting the dps meter for bad player behaviour like blaming someone. As if it's the reason people are rotten and don't know basic etiquette.
    I will ask here the same thing I asked back then, do you REALLY think, a PERSON that blames and harasses someone solely based on damage will not find a different reason like first death? It's a rotten person.. nothing else. Search for a better surrounding community.
    And to point something out separately, elitists are not synonymous with those rotten people. From my personal experience, the actual theorycrafters are usually pretty nice people that are just geniunly interested in how stuff works and not to much bothered by human error.

    I don't trust people overall, I don't want to have a nasty surprise, dragging someone through a dungeon he is CLEARLY not equip to run even tho he says he is. (For context, let's say this dungeon is supposed to have a dps check boss in it intended for max level gear (not the best of the best, simply "wearable at max level") and he comes in with equip that is 10 levels below) If I decide to take someone anyway cause I see that the rest of the group is well equiped, it's again thanks to the quick inspection that enables me to make that call without much hassle.

    If there is no quick inspect option, people will rely on having to link their equipment into the chat or are we going to forbid that too cause it can be used for "elitism"? Has been done before and is ,in my opinion, necesery to at least have a fighting chance.

    This obviously assumes that we have challenging content and is pure speculation on my part since we want to "go back to the good old days where everything matters". If it's all just trivial busy work content, well then I guess we won't have to bother with "elitism" anyway. I would call it appropriate preparation tho.

    On the "wearing something else than you are" debate. I don't really care. The moment the first spell/attack is cast I should, with time, know what I am up against and the rest of the time is just figuring out what skills that person chose for his particular style. First hit advantage? Maybe. Do I care. Not in Ashes context since we are at least promised that it will come down to more than just a few hits.
    I actually agree with most of your post here. Not all of it, but most.

    I particularly agree with you in regards to a DPS meter - there is actually no point in not having one. Even if you ignore the fact that people like myself will put in the effort to break down the classes as best we can, AND if you exclude the value support abilities will play in Ashes, players that are big enough dicks to exclude someone due to DPS parses will be big enough dicks to exclude people because they have a "feeling" that a particular class is under-powered.

    The only way to stop this kind of behavior is to have content that takes actual smarts to beat - as players that exclude players like this are inherently not smart.

    A fairly important point I want to make though, Intrepid have not completely ruled out things like DPS meters and such. Opening up the API is unlikely, but integrating such things in to the game in house is a *possibility* in the future.

    All they have said on the matter, when you really boil it down, is that they don't want to encourage elitist behavior with such things - which is not the same thing as saying they will never appear in the game.


  • DygzDygz Member alpha-stress-tester
    Any class can use any weapon, so I'm not sure how the weapon will inherently dictate class.
    Semms like we will have to try to remember the tactics of our opponents for subsequent confrontations.

    Augments will probably be more important than gear. With the gear really being chosen to supplement the augments.
    If someone is tossing lightning at us, we can be pretty sure they are wearing gear that enhances lightning damage. A person hurling Taunts will probably have gear that enhances Taunts.
    Doesn't matter what the gear looks like.
  • McStackersonMcStackerson Member alpha-stress-tester
    edited June 9
    Noaani said:
    I don't see a cosmetics toggle as a good option. I've talked about it in another thread but i'm basically against a button that removes a players ability to express them self and nullifies the investment they made into their characters appearance. 

    If I don't go to an art exhibition, that doesn't mean the artist is able to claim that he was unable to express himself.

    Likewise, if I have the option to turn off cosmetic appearances, that doesn't alter your ability to express yourself.

    You don't need *MY* eyes to express yourself.
    When you are expressing yourself through your character and people see a different character then what you designed, then your character becomes a misrepresentation of your expression. It's like going to the art gallery but seeing people's art covered in graffiti. Part of the reason people like to customize their characters appearance is to show off and a toggle would remove that. Of course they don't need you to see it but part of the reason they do it so you see it.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member alpha-0-rank
    edited June 9
    Noaani said:
    I don't see a cosmetics toggle as a good option. I've talked about it in another thread but i'm basically against a button that removes a players ability to express them self and nullifies the investment they made into their characters appearance. 

    If I don't go to an art exhibition, that doesn't mean the artist is able to claim that he was unable to express himself.

    Likewise, if I have the option to turn off cosmetic appearances, that doesn't alter your ability to express yourself.

    You don't need *MY* eyes to express yourself.
    When you are expressing yourself through your character and people see a different character then what you designed, then your character becomes a misrepresentation of your expression. It's like going to the art gallery but seeing people's art covered in graffiti. Part of the reason people like to customize their characters appearance is to show off and a toggle would remove that. Of course they don't need you to see it but part of the reason they do it so you see it.
    But in this situation, you are still expressing yourself as you want. You will be blissfully unaware what my checked preferences are.

    I went out of my way to check a box to change a preference for myself, knowing full well that checking that will alter the way I see you.

    I know full well that I am not viewing your character as you want me to view it - I am viewing your character as *I* want to view it. 

    Put another way, with check boxes, *I* would have the option to decide how *I* want to see your character, showing the information *I* place more importance on, rather than being forced to see what you place more importance on. However, *you* are able to dress *yourself* as *you* see fit, and also *you* can decide what *you* think is more important for *you* to see about me and my character.

    Essentially, it comes down to a case of what is more important - players having choices in situations that affect them, or players being able to force their will on others.

    To me, individual player choice literally always wins.
  • McStackersonMcStackerson Member alpha-stress-tester
    edited June 9
    Noaani said:
    Noaani said:
    I don't see a cosmetics toggle as a good option. I've talked about it in another thread but i'm basically against a button that removes a players ability to express them self and nullifies the investment they made into their characters appearance. 

    If I don't go to an art exhibition, that doesn't mean the artist is able to claim that he was unable to express himself.

    Likewise, if I have the option to turn off cosmetic appearances, that doesn't alter your ability to express yourself.

    You don't need *MY* eyes to express yourself.
    When you are expressing yourself through your character and people see a different character then what you designed, then your character becomes a misrepresentation of your expression. It's like going to the art gallery but seeing people's art covered in graffiti. Part of the reason people like to customize their characters appearance is to show off and a toggle would remove that. Of course they don't need you to see it but part of the reason they do it so you see it.
    But in this situation, you are still expressing yourself as you want. You will be blissfully unaware what my checked preferences are.

    I went out of my way to check a box to change a preference for myself, knowing full well that checking that will alter the way I see you.

    I know full well that I am not viewing your character as you want me to view it - I am viewing your character as *I* want to view it. 

    Put another way, with check boxes, *I* would have the option to decide how *I* want to see your character, showing the information *I* place more importance on, rather than being forced to see what you place more importance on. However, *you* are able to dress *yourself* as *you* see fit, and also *you* can decide what *you* think is more important for *you* to see about me and my character.

    Essentially, it comes down to a case of what is more important - players having choices in situations that affect them, or players being able to force their will on others.

    To me, individual player choice literally always wins.
    Shouldn't *I* have control over how you see *my* character? 
  • NoaaniNoaani Member alpha-0-rank
    edited June 9
    Noaani said:
    Noaani said:
    I don't see a cosmetics toggle as a good option. I've talked about it in another thread but i'm basically against a button that removes a players ability to express them self and nullifies the investment they made into their characters appearance. 

    If I don't go to an art exhibition, that doesn't mean the artist is able to claim that he was unable to express himself.

    Likewise, if I have the option to turn off cosmetic appearances, that doesn't alter your ability to express yourself.

    You don't need *MY* eyes to express yourself.
    When you are expressing yourself through your character and people see a different character then what you designed, then your character becomes a misrepresentation of your expression. It's like going to the art gallery but seeing people's art covered in graffiti. Part of the reason people like to customize their characters appearance is to show off and a toggle would remove that. Of course they don't need you to see it but part of the reason they do it so you see it.
    But in this situation, you are still expressing yourself as you want. You will be blissfully unaware what my checked preferences are.

    I went out of my way to check a box to change a preference for myself, knowing full well that checking that will alter the way I see you.

    I know full well that I am not viewing your character as you want me to view it - I am viewing your character as *I* want to view it. 

    Put another way, with check boxes, *I* would have the option to decide how *I* want to see your character, showing the information *I* place more importance on, rather than being forced to see what you place more importance on. However, *you* are able to dress *yourself* as *you* see fit, and also *you* can decide what *you* think is more important for *you* to see about me and my character.

    Essentially, it comes down to a case of what is more important - players having choices in situations that affect them, or players being able to force their will on others.

    To me, individual player choice literally always wins.
    Shouldn't *I* have control over how you see *my* character? 
    No.

    I should.

    In terms of any situation where information is at stake, you shouldn't have control over anything I see - just as I shouldn't be able to rearrange your UI to make it harder for you to find information you want.

    Something like a guild banner doesn't matter, because - even though you can design one yourself (iirc), me seeing that isn't preventing me from seeing something that could be more important to me.

    Armor and weapons, however, do matter.

    Edit; I'm all for things like cosmetic slots always showing in towns and cities (though the transition would be jarring), or cosmetics showing if they are the same item type (plate armor, longsword etc) as the item in the equipment slot. I'd even be up for checked options only applying to people you are able to flag on (or people that are able to flag on you), because to me, this is purely about threat assessment and if you are not a threat, then I don't need to assess you in that manner. 

    I'd also like to point out again that I'd only want to see this as an option, not as something that is forced on all players.

    Thing is though, not knowing if someone charging you down with a sword and shield *actually* has a sword and shield equipped seems totally stupid.

    That is all really basic stuff that - to me - shouldn't even be up for debate in a game where PvP plays a central role.
  • Digital_WindDigital_Wind Member, Alpha 1 Stress Test alpha-stress-tester
    edited June 9
    Too long; didn't read.


    Sometimes...when you've been bashing your head against a wall for hours trying to take down a boss and it seems like you will never progress - all you need is a breath of fresh Digital_Wind.
  • DygzDygz Member alpha-stress-tester
    Emperor's New Clothes
  • McStackersonMcStackerson Member alpha-stress-tester
    edited June 9
    Noaani said:
    No.

    I should.

    In terms of any situation where information is at stake, you shouldn't have control over anything I see - just as I shouldn't be able to rearrange your UI to make it harder for you to find information you want.

    Something like a guild banner doesn't matter, because - even though you can design one yourself (iirc), me seeing that isn't preventing me from seeing something that could be more important to me.

    Armor and weapons, however, do matter.

    Edit; I'm all for things like cosmetic slots always showing in towns and cities (though the transition would be jarring), or cosmetics showing if they are the same item type (plate armor, longsword etc) as the item in the equipment slot. I'd even be up for checked options only applying to people you are able to flag on (or people that are able to flag on you), because to me, this is purely about threat assessment and if you are not a threat, then I don't need to assess you in that manner. 

    I'd also like to point out again that I'd only want to see this as an option, not as something that is forced on all players.

    Thing is though, not knowing if someone charging you down with a sword and shield *actually* has a sword and shield equipped seems totally stupid.

    That is all really basic stuff that - to me - shouldn't even be up for debate in a game where PvP plays a central role.
    If someone is charging you with a sword and a shield, you will probably know they have a one hander and a shield. Weapon skins usually get locked to the weapon category they are in.

    We might need to agree to disagree here. As i said, I enjoy customizing my characters appearance and showing it off. A toggle removes a my ability to be seen how I want to to be which cheapens it. I'd understand if there was no other way around this but we have seen other options before in the form of things like a buff. If anything, a buff with an easily recognized icon does a better job showing this information then having to get close see what they are wearing. If it's really makes things cluttered then it could be toggled.

    On another note, as it's been said, i'm starting to become more unsure how much we need this and how much knowing your opponents armor type will change your fighting style. Knowing the armor and weapon type doesn't tell you how it's been augmented or the dials used which might mean a lot more then the armor type itself.
  • LoyhetaLoyheta Member, Alpha 1 Stress Test alpha-stress-tester
    If this was an RP game or had RP servers maybe I'd agree with no toggle cosmetic option. However this is a pvx game... so if I want to see what people are geared with, I should have the option, if I want to see their cosmetics, I should have the option.
  • nagashnagash Member alpha-stress-tester
    Loyheta said:
    If this was an RP game or had RP servers maybe I'd agree with no toggle cosmetic option. However this is a pvx game... so if I want to see what people are geared with, I should have the option, if I want to see their cosmetics, I should have the option.
    I have to agree. the problem we have is IS needs to cater to both groups

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead do not fight one another. The dead have no desires, no petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • McStackersonMcStackerson Member alpha-stress-tester
    edited June 9
    Loyheta said:
    If this was an RP game or had RP servers maybe I'd agree with no toggle cosmetic option. However this is a pvx game... so if I want to see what people are geared with, I should have the option, if I want to see their cosmetics, I should have the option.
    And a simple buff like in archeage can't solve this problem? A buff that is probably more recognizable then the gear itself as we already know each race looks different in gear.

    For those who didn't play AA here is what i'm talking about: 

    Ignoreing the text and looking in the upper left you will see the actual buffs. The shield meant that they were using a shield buff means the player is using a one-hander and shield and the buff that looks like a plate breastplate means they have a plate set equipped. There is also the red buff with the arrow that is showing you the quality of the gear equipped, not sure if it's necessary but it's an option.

    Here is another example:

    You will see a buff that looks like a leather chest piece(3rd from left) which means leather and the buff that has two hands holding a stick (5th from left) means they are using a two hander. 

  • NoaaniNoaani Member alpha-0-rank
    edited June 9
    Noaani said:
    No.

    I should.

    In terms of any situation where information is at stake, you shouldn't have control over anything I see - just as I shouldn't be able to rearrange your UI to make it harder for you to find information you want.

    Something like a guild banner doesn't matter, because - even though you can design one yourself (iirc), me seeing that isn't preventing me from seeing something that could be more important to me.

    Armor and weapons, however, do matter.

    Edit; I'm all for things like cosmetic slots always showing in towns and cities (though the transition would be jarring), or cosmetics showing if they are the same item type (plate armor, longsword etc) as the item in the equipment slot. I'd even be up for checked options only applying to people you are able to flag on (or people that are able to flag on you), because to me, this is purely about threat assessment and if you are not a threat, then I don't need to assess you in that manner. 

    I'd also like to point out again that I'd only want to see this as an option, not as something that is forced on all players.

    Thing is though, not knowing if someone charging you down with a sword and shield *actually* has a sword and shield equipped seems totally stupid.

    That is all really basic stuff that - to me - shouldn't even be up for debate in a game where PvP plays a central role.
    If someone is charging you with a sword and a shield, you will probably know they have a one hander and a shield. Weapon skins usually get locked to the weapon category they are in.

    We might need to agree to disagree here. As i said, I enjoy customizing my characters appearance and showing it off. A toggle removes a my ability to be seen how I want to to be which cheapens it. I'd understand if there was no other way around this but we have seen other options before in the form of things like a buff. If anything, a buff with an easily recognized icon does a better job showing this information then having to get close see what they are wearing. If it's really makes things cluttered then it could be toggled.

    On another note, as it's been said, i'm starting to become more unsure how much we need this and how much knowing your opponents armor type will change your fighting style. Knowing the armor and weapon type doesn't tell you how it's been augmented or the dials used which might mean a lot more then the armor type itself.
    In games where you skin a weapon, it is usually kept to the same weapon type.

    However, Ashes isn't just re-skinning weapons, it is supplying entire slots to put what ever items we want in them to act as our appearance. There is a possibility that they will place restrictions on these slots along the lines of only using the same item types - but there is the chance they won't do that, either.

    The big pitfall to buffs as a way to tell what armor people have on - other than it requiring the use of the UI which I dislike - is the fact that it doesn't help much in group situations. This was an issue in Archeage in large scale PvP, which went some way to causing large scale PvP tactics to be largely irrelevant in that game outside of "mageball" and similar gimmicks.

    Why should I have to target each member of a hostile group to see what they are wearing, and then have to remember that? Should it not be obvious to players what others are wearing?

    We know heavy armor will be more resistant to physical damage, and we know robes and such will be more resistant to magical damage. That in itself makes the need to know what people are wearing important.

    I'm all for you customizing your character how you want, and this is why I'd be up for options to be limited to the same item type. This would mean that if you are a plate user with a two-handed sword, and you want people to always see you as you want them to see you, if you limit your cosmetic items to only plate armor and two-handed swords, then all players would see you as you have intended.

    With this, I may not be able to tell exactly what plate armor and two-handed sword you have, but I'd at least know that you do indeed have plate armor and a two-handed sword - enough information for me to make a somewhat accurate threat assessment.
  • T-ElfT-Elf Member alpha-stress-tester
    Having to only be able to use costume pieces of the same type is going to hard to do with holiday outfits and special occasions, and other costumes like merchant gear and royality.


  • McStackersonMcStackerson Member alpha-stress-tester
    edited June 9
    Noaani said:
    In games where you skin a weapon, it is usually kept to the same weapon type.

    However, Ashes isn't just re-skinning weapons, it is supplying entire slots to put what ever items we want in them to act as our appearance. There is a possibility that they will place restrictions on these slots along the lines of only using the same item types - but there is the chance they won't do that, either.

    The big pitfall to buffs as a way to tell what armor people have on - other than it requiring the use of the UI which I dislike - is the fact that it doesn't help much in group situations. This was an issue in Archeage in large scale PvP, which went some way to causing large scale PvP tactics to be largely irrelevant in that game outside of "mageball" and similar gimmicks.

    Why should I have to target each member of a hostile group to see what they are wearing, and then have to remember that? Should it not be obvious to players what others are wearing?

    We know heavy armor will be more resistant to physical damage, and we know robes and such will be more resistant to magical damage. That in itself makes the need to know what people are wearing important.

    I'm all for you customizing your character how you want, and this is why I'd be up for options to be limited to the same item type. This would mean that if you are a plate user with a two-handed sword, and you want people to always see you as you want them to see you, if you limit your cosmetic items to only plate armor and two-handed swords, then all players would see you as you have intended.

    With this, I may not be able to tell exactly what plate armor and two-handed sword you have, but I'd at least know that you do indeed have plate armor and a two-handed sword - enough information for me to make a somewhat accurate threat assessment.
    I would also prefer a system where costumes are locked to armor types. Do we even know if that is not the case? I feel like they have told us the cosmetics works the way we are talking about but can't find where.

    On the buff topic, it has it's pros and cons. In large groups, you wont be able to immediately see what people are wearing just by looking at them but you also have players who you wont have direct site of because they are behind others. The buff will make it easier to tell what these players are using. The buff is also better for telling what people are wearing when they are father away. On top of this, there could be other important information you gain by targeting a character like class.
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