Having to only be able to use costume pieces of the same type is going to hard to do with holiday outfits and special occasions, and other costumes like merchant gear and royality.
I'd rather see these things restricted to use inside towns and cities regardless - or ideally non existent - I don't see why Verra would celebrate Christmas.
If they do end up in game, Santa Claus and Easter Bunnies have no place on the battlefield imo.
I could see a case for merchant clothing in regards to caravans, but only if the merchant clothing serves an actual purpose - negating the need for it to be a cosmetic item in the first place. For the most part, people running caravans would want to be ready for battle.
On the buff topic, it has it's pros and cons. In large groups, you wont be able to immediately see what people are wearing just by looking at them but you also have players who you wont have direct site of because they are behind others. The buff will make it easier to tell what these players are using. The buff is also better for telling what people are wearing when they are father away. On top of this, there could be other important information you gain by targeting a character like class.
I personally agree in general.
Open PvP breaks down in to two things, as far as I am concerned. Small scale and large scale.
In small scale PvP - no more than 6 players participating - it really isn't much to ask for players to have to target each enemy to discern the information about them that they would want. However, in large scale PvP, this is a totally unrealistic thing to ask.
To me, the information that should be readily apparent in large scale PvP is the following 4 things - enemy player numbers, player locations, cohesion and a rough breakdown of character types.
None of this is information that should be displayed in the games UI - as every piece of this information should be available simply by looking at the game world. It's usually easy to see roughly how many players you are up against and where they are. It's not hard to tell if they work well together or not, and that just leaves character type.
Unlike small scale PvP, in large scale, the exact class of a single opponent isn't that important. What is important is knowing who are melee and who are the casters, who are the stealth players and who are the healers.
This information *should* all be plainly displayed in the game world.
If this was an RP game or had RP servers maybe I'd agree with no toggle cosmetic option. However this is a pvx game... so if I want to see what people are geared with, I should have the option, if I want to see their cosmetics, I should have the option.
And a simple buff like in archeage can't solve this problem? A buff that is probably more recognizable then the gear itself as we already know each race looks different in gear.
For those who didn't play AA here is what i'm talking about: Ignoreing the text and looking in the upper left you will see the actual buffs. The shield meant that they were using a shield buff means the player is using a one-hander and shield and the buff that looks like a plate breastplate means they have a plate set equipped. There is also the red buff with the arrow that is showing you the quality of the gear equipped, not sure if it's necessary but it's an option.
Here is another example: You will see a buff that looks like a leather chest piece(3rd from left) which means leather and the buff that has two hands holding a stick (5th from left) means they are using a two hander.
Problem with this is that it only rewards using one set of armor. What about people that want mix sets? Like a battlemage wanting to mix heavy and light for looks/defenses? Unless there is a low threshold to the min like 2 or 3 pieces of gear that still yields a benefit to mix sets, you are kneecapping a lot of people.
Now if there is a minimum of 2-set bonuses for same armor buffs I'm on board for this. Have different tiers rewarding different bonuses. That way when fully decked you could have a t-3 light, t-2 medium, and t-3 heavy buffs going on at the same time. If you are really ambitious you could have qualities to the buffs as well. Like where the buff is the same quality as all the minimum levels of quality gear. Example would be an common t-6 light armor, a uncommon t-6, a rare t-6, and an epic t-6 buff. I doubt there would be enough legendary gear out there to be able to achieve a legendary set of gear... but maybe a small legendary t-1 buff for having two same-armor-type.
I guess this would be a more extreme version of what you are asking... unless I just don't understand AA and maybe it is the same thing... where it tells you exactly what armor type and quality the gear is.
I don't want to be restricted to just towns to be able to wear my appearance gear. Not only that, but there is going to be holiday because there is a Christmas video. There is going to be merchant gear as well as royalty that were perks in the Kickstarter. I want to wear these anywhere as I may want to be a traveling merchant. When I get holiday outfits I want to wear them, as they are my way celebrating.
I just don't see that it is so dang important to absolutely know without a doubt what the other guy is wearing. It should be considered a skill to figure that out what class someone is if you want to engage them. As has been pointed out, if your good enough at your own class that shouldn't be a problem.
I just don't see that it is so dang important to absolutely know without a doubt what the other guy is wearing. It should be considered a skill to figure that out what class someone is if you want to engage them. As has been pointed out, if your good enough at your own class that shouldn't be a problem.
It isn't about exactly what they are wearing, it is about what type of thing they are wearing.
Every player in the game, whether they know it or not, will approach a player with plate armor and a giant hammer differently than they will approach a player with robes and a staff.
The better you are at your class, the bigger the difference in how you approach each of the above.
But as I've said, this kind of in game feedback is *far* more important in large scale PvP than it is in small scale PvP. It isn't about seeing what one player has on, it is about seeing what 10 players have on.
I don't see how Intrepid will be able to allow cosmetic slots to always be visible in a game where they claim Pv Pis integral, and threat assessment is important (two claims they have made). It simply doesn't follow that such a thing could exist in such a game.
Sure, it works in games without PvP, but that isn't Ashes.
This conversation shouldn't even be about whether or not there should be ways for people to see what item types you are wearing, the conversation should be about how that should be implemented - as it actually *has* to be implemented if PvP is to be meaningful in Ashes.
I am pretty sure they voiced their anti stance for api support as well as built in parsers for the same reasons, elitism that is in several streams.
They did.
However, in at least one quote I read, they specifically left the door open on things like this to change later on - should Intrepid change their mind.
I don't want to be restricted to just towns to be able to wear my appearance gear. Not only that, but there is going to be holiday because there is a Christmas video. There is going to be merchant gear as well as royalty that were perks in the Kickstarter. I want to wear these anywhere as I may want to be a traveling merchant. When I get holiday outfits I want to wear them, as they are my way celebrating.
I just don't see that it is so dang important to absolutely know without a doubt what the other guy is wearing. It should be considered a skill to figure that out what class someone is if you want to engage them. As has been pointed out, if your good enough at your own class that shouldn't be a problem.
Not sure who suggested that... if you are talking about my suggestion.. that was for a client-side setting that'd only display cosmetic in towns (as well as other filter suggestions). This is client side so ... it literally has no bearing on anyone's gameplay if they turn it off.
Frankly I can see both sides of this so I'm not sure where to come down.
If I get jumped by someone I think it would be good to be able to tell at a glance what kind of fight I was in for. It would help determine how I would respond and give me a better chance of surviving a sneak attack.
At the same time I feel that if someone is going to jump me, attack me when I'm at a disadvantage, then I feel they should run the risk of me not being what my appearance says I am. If you're going to take me by surprise to get an advantage then you should also have a chance of being surprised.
I don't know how IS is going to handle this but I don't envy them. Things like this require you to walk a fine line or you can throw the balance of the game off to one side or the other. I'm pretty sure no matter how they do it someone is going to be unhappy
Frankly I can see both sides of this so I'm not sure where to come down.
If I get jumped by someone I think it would be good to be able to tell at a glance what kind of fight I was in for. It would help determine how I would respond and give me a better chance of surviving a sneak attack.
At the same time I feel that if someone is going to jump me, attack me when I'm at a disadvantage, then I feel they should run the risk of me not being what my appearance says I am. If you're going to take me by surprise to get an advantage then you should also have a chance of being surprised.
I don't know how IS is going to handle this but I don't envy them. Things like this require you to walk a fine line or you can throw the balance of the game off to one side or the other. I'm pretty sure no matter how they do it someone is going to be unhappy
Waking this one up as I've been out of the AoC loop for a while, but I think I'm with you - I can see both sides.
I think that my basic position would be this - I would like to be able to mask my gear. Not as in "I look like an acolyte in a robe, but I'm really Dreadnought in seven hundred pounds of steel armour" way though. I think that kind of thing would just get tiresome.
What I would like is something like the option of throwing on a cloak. Say I'm some kind of corrupted PvP assassin. I see some guy in a cloak waking down a path in the middle of a forest. At that point, all I see is a cloak and their face.
If I attack them and they go to fight, then they basically throw off the cloak, revealing what they're wearing. That way I go in with no info, and gain it when the fight starts, rather than this "I look frail but I'm actually the hulk" thing.
Or I could take time and use some kind of observation skill to get clues about what they're wearing. Maybe I take 5 minutes to stalk them through said wood in stealth, and my observation skill gives me broad info about their equipment - stuff like "wearing heavy plate, has a helm, steel boots, etc". I don't get the full breakdown, but I can get the gist of whether I'm fighting a dreadnought or an acolyte. Then when I go into combat, again, off comes the cloak, revealing the gear.
A good example would be from the Sword Art Online: Phantom Bullet anime. There's a bit where a group are planning to ambush another group. But there's one guy who they can't see because he's wearing a cloak. They can tell he's big, they can tell he's moving slow, so he's probably carrying some weight, but its not until he throws off his cloak that they can see he's actually carrying a minigun.
If this was an RP game or had RP servers maybe I'd agree with no toggle cosmetic option. However this is a pvx game... so if I want to see what people are geared with, I should have the option, if I want to see their cosmetics, I should have the option.
This is an MMORPG - so it is inherently an RP game. It's intrinsic to the genre type. The Elemental skin cosmetics seem to override armor slots.
...Or I could take time and use some kind of observation skill to get clues about what they're wearing. Maybe I take 5 minutes to stalk them through said wood in stealth, and my observation skill gives me broad info about their equipment - stuff like "wearing heavy plate, has a helm, steel boots, etc". I don't get the full breakdown, but I can get the gist of whether I'm fighting a dreadnought or an acolyte. Then when I go into combat, again, off comes the cloak, revealing the gear.
I kinda like the idea of a cloak... It should not be able to hide the outline of the armor that you are wearing. Steel plate shoulders should not look like cloth shoulders under a cloak ...IMO. There's got to be at least a hint of armor type at a glance.
...Or I could take time and use some kind of observation skill to get clues about what they're wearing. Maybe I take 5 minutes to stalk them through said wood in stealth, and my observation skill gives me broad info about their equipment - stuff like "wearing heavy plate, has a helm, steel boots, etc". I don't get the full breakdown, but I can get the gist of whether I'm fighting a dreadnought or an acolyte. Then when I go into combat, again, off comes the cloak, revealing the gear.
I kinda like the idea of a cloak... It should not be able to hide the outline of the armor that you are wearing. Steel plate shoulders should not look like cloth shoulders under a cloak ...IMO. There's got to be at least a hint of armor type at a glance.
I could get behind that. A guy in full plate cuts a very different profile to a guy in a robe.
There is a very easy solution - under the players name could be a small symbol denoting their base class or potentially the base and the Archetype.
For example, a slinkly looking lady in cosmetic dress has a little Blue Shield under her name - Tank.
I'd rather not have something like this. It makes everything really cheesy. PVP should absolutely be about the mystery and skill of the enemy, rather than insta-knowing right off the bat what someone is and how to handle them.
In my opinion it really detracts from the immersion of good quality pvp. Original SWG devs understood this well, and only wanted people to see only whatever the character looked like, but have to guess as to the rest. When going against an opponent you had no idea what skill lines they had, or quality of equipment they were using, but you figured out through the course of the fight if you were over, under, or equally matched. And it was fantastic! It made every encounter unique and unpredictable, which is what we should have here.
Constant predictability in pvp becomes really boring, really quick, and only serves to turn people off to it. If it is unknown, then it makes you look at all enemies equally, and teaches you not to underestimate players, and to judge them more fairly on skill rather than looks. It allows players to perform based on their merits and not what other people think about the gear they had equipped.
I'll side with the group about not being able to assess targets.
Sorry, but in my experience being able to do that leads to a large number of gankers roaming the land looking for easy marks. And that breaks the game immersion for more people that are easy marks, then it adds value to few who are indulging in the ganking.
Thieves and assassins and rangers are good at disguises. There are magical abilities to change appearance, as well as the skins. Gankers should not be able to look though these things to gain an insight into risk factors.
As my background is world pvp i'll add my two cents. The PvP is far superior when you cannot discern what someone is wearing beyond what a player can see. The reason for this is you have to learn to play to counter actions and not gear. Any game that revolves too much around gear is a poor game and is not a PvP classic. Good PvP revolves around skill. It is far superior to be caught on the back foot and switch the play around due to your reactions than it is to be able to halt combat to inspect someone. This is how names are made on PvP servers. People become recognized for their skills and not because of their armour. I've made great friends and great enemies who i would look for on a battlefield because i know they can beat me. I don't see their armour to know this i know this because of past experiences. In a fluid PvP battle people will be called out and focussed on irrespective of their armour. If a player cannot show themselves how they want it will break immersion and cause people to leave the game. I'm all for inclusion and skill. I'm all for Player verses Player not Player verses Items. This is also why i'm against PvP Armour. I prefer one armour set for all situations though the armour itself can be swapped out for certain uses.
Comments
If they do end up in game, Santa Claus and Easter Bunnies have no place on the battlefield imo.
I could see a case for merchant clothing in regards to caravans, but only if the merchant clothing serves an actual purpose - negating the need for it to be a cosmetic item in the first place. For the most part, people running caravans would want to be ready for battle.I personally agree in general.
Open PvP breaks down in to two things, as far as I am concerned. Small scale and large scale.
In small scale PvP - no more than 6 players participating - it really isn't much to ask for players to have to target each enemy to discern the information about them that they would want. However, in large scale PvP, this is a totally unrealistic thing to ask.
To me, the information that should be readily apparent in large scale PvP is the following 4 things - enemy player numbers, player locations, cohesion and a rough breakdown of character types.
None of this is information that should be displayed in the games UI - as every piece of this information should be available simply by looking at the game world. It's usually easy to see roughly how many players you are up against and where they are. It's not hard to tell if they work well together or not, and that just leaves character type.
Unlike small scale PvP, in large scale, the exact class of a single opponent isn't that important. What is important is knowing who are melee and who are the casters, who are the stealth players and who are the healers.
This information *should* all be plainly displayed in the game world.
Now if there is a minimum of 2-set bonuses for same armor buffs I'm on board for this. Have different tiers rewarding different bonuses. That way when fully decked you could have a t-3 light, t-2 medium, and t-3 heavy buffs going on at the same time. If you are really ambitious you could have qualities to the buffs as well. Like where the buff is the same quality as all the minimum levels of quality gear. Example would be an common t-6 light armor, a uncommon t-6, a rare t-6, and an epic t-6 buff. I doubt there would be enough legendary gear out there to be able to achieve a legendary set of gear... but maybe a small legendary t-1 buff for having two same-armor-type.
I guess this would be a more extreme version of what you are asking... unless I just don't understand AA and maybe it is the same thing... where it tells you exactly what armor type and quality the gear is.
I just don't see that it is so dang important to absolutely know without a doubt what the other guy is wearing. It should be considered a skill to figure that out what class someone is if you want to engage them. As has been pointed out, if your good enough at your own class that shouldn't be a problem.
Every player in the game, whether they know it or not, will approach a player with plate armor and a giant hammer differently than they will approach a player with robes and a staff.
The better you are at your class, the bigger the difference in how you approach each of the above.
But as I've said, this kind of in game feedback is *far* more important in large scale PvP than it is in small scale PvP. It isn't about seeing what one player has on, it is about seeing what 10 players have on.
I don't see how Intrepid will be able to allow cosmetic slots to always be visible in a game where they claim Pv Pis integral, and threat assessment is important (two claims they have made). It simply doesn't follow that such a thing could exist in such a game.
Sure, it works in games without PvP, but that isn't Ashes.
This conversation shouldn't even be about whether or not there should be ways for people to see what item types you are wearing, the conversation should be about how that should be implemented - as it actually *has* to be implemented if PvP is to be meaningful in Ashes.They did.
However, in at least one quote I read, they specifically left the door open on things like this to change later on - should Intrepid change their mind.
Fully opening up the API is unlikely, however.
I think that my basic position would be this - I would like to be able to mask my gear. Not as in "I look like an acolyte in a robe, but I'm really Dreadnought in seven hundred pounds of steel armour" way though. I think that kind of thing would just get tiresome.
What I would like is something like the option of throwing on a cloak. Say I'm some kind of corrupted PvP assassin. I see some guy in a cloak waking down a path in the middle of a forest. At that point, all I see is a cloak and their face.
If I attack them and they go to fight, then they basically throw off the cloak, revealing what they're wearing. That way I go in with no info, and gain it when the fight starts, rather than this "I look frail but I'm actually the hulk" thing.
Or I could take time and use some kind of observation skill to get clues about what they're wearing. Maybe I take 5 minutes to stalk them through said wood in stealth, and my observation skill gives me broad info about their equipment - stuff like "wearing heavy plate, has a helm, steel boots, etc". I don't get the full breakdown, but I can get the gist of whether I'm fighting a dreadnought or an acolyte. Then when I go into combat, again, off comes the cloak, revealing the gear.
A good example would be from the Sword Art Online: Phantom Bullet anime. There's a bit where a group are planning to ambush another group. But there's one guy who they can't see because he's wearing a cloak. They can tell he's big, they can tell he's moving slow, so he's probably carrying some weight, but its not until he throws off his cloak that they can see he's actually carrying a minigun.
In my opinion it really detracts from the immersion of good quality pvp. Original SWG devs understood this well, and only wanted people to see only whatever the character looked like, but have to guess as to the rest. When going against an opponent you had no idea what skill lines they had, or quality of equipment they were using, but you figured out through the course of the fight if you were over, under, or equally matched. And it was fantastic! It made every encounter unique and unpredictable, which is what we should have here.
Constant predictability in pvp becomes really boring, really quick, and only serves to turn people off to it. If it is unknown, then it makes you look at all enemies equally, and teaches you not to underestimate players, and to judge them more fairly on skill rather than looks. It allows players to perform based on their merits and not what other people think about the gear they had equipped.
Sorry, but in my experience being able to do that leads to a large number of gankers roaming the land looking for easy marks. And that breaks the game immersion for more people that are easy marks, then it adds value to few who are indulging in the ganking.
Thieves and assassins and rangers are good at disguises. There are magical abilities to change appearance, as well as the skins. Gankers should not be able to look though these things to gain an insight into risk factors.