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Gathering Cluster Question

In reading the overview of how gathering clusters work, it states that once they are exhausted, it will respawn somewhere else in the world. Is that somewhere random anywhere on the map, or within that region. 

I hope that resources are regional, so that certain nodes are more valuable because of the resources that are in the area. That would give a lot of weight to PvP and really make large scale wars worth something. It is also a way for the devs to subtly incite new battles. For instance they could add a new tier of weapons that use a new type of ore which makes the old resource less valuable and therefore everyone is now fighting for control over a different node. 
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  • "We really want resources to be persistent and non-renewable. If there’s a mithril vein, that mithril vein will be there until it runs out. The server will manage these amounts on its own, and will repopulate things where and when it desires. You might find another mithril vein in that location sometime later, or somewhere nearby, or maybe never again!"


  • I think the way they have it set up will encourage trade but not allow for a monopoly. Also, your node won't be powerful just because the only iron vein is in your nodes ZOI. I prefer this set up.
  • I like OPs idea... It would also "force" trade between nodes for different resources. We already know carry capacity is limited so this would serve to create more caravans as components are transfered around the map.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    I like OPs idea... It would also "force" trade between nodes for different resources. We already know carry capacity is limited so this would serve to create more caravans as components are transfered around the map.
    Right...it would create a great political game between nodes, you would have to pick strategic alliances with other nodes. The way I understand it, only one node in a ZOI can become a metropolis, it stunts the growth of other nodes. Therefore you would need to make an alliance with a node outside your ZOI. Thus making for long/dangerous supply runs through enemy territory. 

    In in my mind something as small as resource location can have a huge impact on the political/social makeup of a server.
  • I am still not following that logic to completion.
    I think having "roaming" resources will prevent one node from artificially being powerful for the entire life of the server due to having access to the most rare/valuable resource.

    I really want the game map, especially nodes, to develop dynamically and change often. Having static resource points encourages gank squads / guild war hot spots / and monopolies. I don't think any of those things are needed to encourage meaningful PvP.

    Gank squads can still flag a resource to gank gatherers.
    Guild wars will still fight over resources currently in the Guild Castles ZOI.
    Monopolies can occur with player driven crafts.

    What is the actual benefit of everyone always knowing exactly where a certain resource is? Besides making the game easier.
  • I would like for certain regions to be more prevalent with specific resources, e.g., a mountainous region would have a lot of ore and trees, plains would have a lot of grain and wildlife, forests would have trees and wildlife, etc. You wouldn't have to lock specific resources in a region you'd just have them much more likely to spawn. So with a normal hills area would have a normal rating for ore but a mountain or crag area would have twice as much so it'd have a better chance for a rare node. 

    If it was done in this way groups could level up nodes feeling reassured that their market of woodworking and metalworking would be safe and they could trade with wildlife-heavy zones for furs and other animal parts. Not that they couldn't find those in their own, just that they were so common in the other area that trading would be easier/faster. 
  • It promotes exploration and cuts down on those very monopolies discussed. If you know that you can log on, do your gathering circle for flowers 5 times in a row and log off with that days objectives complete. If you log on, and your flowers are gone, you have to go searching for new spawns, leading you into situations that you were not planning on.
    Groups of people who feel that they "own" that resource will have similar experiences. While that silver mine located just outside your city gates is convenient and is all the rage for people trying to "sell" access, it too will become depleted and go poof. If you know that it is just going to spawn over the next hill in some set pattern it allows people to get into set habits of play, get bored with the game, and leave. Finding out "your" silver spawn has popped up 3 nodes over and it being utilized by "that other group we don't like." leads to all sorts of reason for conflict.
  • That's why I'd like thousands and thousands of potential spawn points for nodes. I think all the types of materials should share spots. I think the only difference should be that certain biomes should be mineral/wood/fauna/flora rich, normal, or scarce. There shouldn't be any certain location of a specific material. It should be random. All over the world. This would add more to node warfare and trade wars. It'd also reward exploration as explorers could sell rare node location in an auction. 

    I really think keeping the entire world always relevant is very important. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Azathoth said:
    I am still not following that logic to completion.
    I think having "roaming" resources will prevent one node from artificially being powerful for the entire life of the server due to having access to the most rare/valuable resource.

    I really want the game map, especially nodes, to develop dynamically and change often. Having static resource points encourages gank squads / guild war hot spots / and monopolies. I don't think any of those things are needed to encourage meaningful PvP.

    Gank squads can still flag a resource to gank gatherers.
    Guild wars will still fight over resources currently in the Guild Castles ZOI.
    Monopolies can occur with player driven crafts.

    What is the actual benefit of everyone always knowing exactly where a certain resource is? Besides making the game easier.
    THIS. I also think that the general comments by the devs coincide with your sentiment, Azathoth. as far as I have seen (but I could be wrong). A node harboring a specific resource you can't get from any other node sounds fun in theory. Encouraging travel to that node for that resource sounds nice in theory. But I could see it just being a messy, ongoing war for that resource in that node. A "gank fest" essentially, as azathoth points to.

    I would like to note that Prevelance of a given resource in certain nodes, but not exclusivity, would be ok by me. 
  • UnknownSystemError said:
    It promotes exploration and cuts down on those very monopolies discussed. If you know that you can log on, do your gathering circle for flowers 5 times in a row and log off with that days objectives complete. If you log on, and your flowers are gone, you have to go searching for new spawns, leading you into situations that you were not planning on.
    Groups of people who feel that they "own" that resource will have similar experiences. While that silver mine located just outside your city gates is convenient and is all the rage for people trying to "sell" access, it too will become depleted and go poof. If you know that it is just going to spawn over the next hill in some set pattern it allows people to get into set habits of play, get bored with the game, and leave. Finding out "your" silver spawn has popped up 3 nodes over and it being utilized by "that other group we don't like." leads to all sorts of reason for conflict.
    This is basically what I was about to type.

    Static resource locations means the games population becomes static, and the ONLY way to shake things up is for Intrepid to do as the OP suggested and add a new material - thus decreasing the value of all items in game at present (something Steven wan'ts to avoid).

    If resources are dynamic, players going after those resources have to be dynamic as well.
  • Noaani said:
    UnknownSystemError said:
    It promotes exploration and cuts down on those very monopolies discussed. If you know that you can log on, do your gathering circle for flowers 5 times in a row and log off with that days objectives complete. If you log on, and your flowers are gone, you have to go searching for new spawns, leading you into situations that you were not planning on.
    Groups of people who feel that they "own" that resource will have similar experiences. While that silver mine located just outside your city gates is convenient and is all the rage for people trying to "sell" access, it too will become depleted and go poof. If you know that it is just going to spawn over the next hill in some set pattern it allows people to get into set habits of play, get bored with the game, and leave. Finding out "your" silver spawn has popped up 3 nodes over and it being utilized by "that other group we don't like." leads to all sorts of reason for conflict.
    This is basically what I was about to type.

    Static resource locations means the games population becomes static, and the ONLY way to shake things up is for Intrepid to do as the OP suggested and add a new material - thus decreasing the value of all items in game at present (something Steven wan'ts to avoid).

    If resources are dynamic, players going after those resources have to be dynamic as well.

    My argument is that static resources would drive the game. Almost all game systems are built on resource scarcity. Each ZOI has resources natural to the terrain, to craft you will need resources from each area. Therefore crafters need to set up trade lines with the caravan system. PvPers will need to be hired to defend those supply lines. 

    The social aspect of the game could be very deep within this system. It would create strife from both outside and inside a node. For example, say a metropolis has two strong crafting guilds. Each want to limit the others market share, they will then hire others to attack the competitions caravans. 

    On a macro level, you will need to have allies in other ZOIs to get the supplies you need. If there is an attack on your allies in another ZOI, you will need to go protect them in order to keep your supply lines running. Or you could see how it plays out and make a new deal with whoever wins. It brings a whole new level of strategy, diplomacy and intrigue to the game.


  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Static resources also drive bots. Random resource spawning and QTE events diminish automated actions. They can't set up a resource gathering loop and go afk (which is how they make money) if said resources are not being gathered because they have to keep an eye on QTE sweet spot gathering and resource spawns that move. For all the grief and rage over the corruption system, this game will also have that for bot control. See a bot train. Kill it. Don't want to gain corruption? Yell loudly in node...someone will.
  • Static resources also allow a single group, not even necessarily associated with the node, to control access for the potential length of the game. For me this is a flaw many other MMORPGS have had and that Ashes is working on changing for the better.

    Change is better, let us adapt our play styles to fit Ashes and stop trying to force Ashes into a box that is obviously not doing well.
  • Azathoth said:
    Static resources also allow a single group, not even necessarily associated with the node, to control access for the potential length of the game. For me this is a flaw many other MMORPGS have had and that Ashes is working on changing for the better.

    Change is better, let us adapt our play styles to fit Ashes and stop trying to force Ashes into a box that is obviously not doing well.
    idk... a group of people running protection on a rare node while their harvesters gather from it sounds exactly like what pvx should be.
  • If resources spawn everywhere, what will be the point of running caravans once metropolises are built and the servers start to settle down. If I can get everything I need in one ZOI the game will end up being pretty static. 
  • Hoax said:
    If resources spawn everywhere, what will be the point of running caravans once metropolises are built and the servers start to settle down. If I can get everything I need in one ZOI the game will end up being pretty static. 
    Exactly.   Resources that spawn sporadically across the world encourage exploration, trade and trade routes, and community involvement.   Going in groups for protection. guarding caravans and trade routes is a major part of Ashes.   Who wants to live in a static world or indulge in a static game?   Intrepid seems have Ashes heading in the right direction.   
  • Hoax said:
    If resources spawn everywhere, what will be the point of running caravans once metropolises are built and the servers start to settle down. If I can get everything I need in one ZOI the game will end up being pretty static. 
    I believe nodes are suppose to last for a while and you will need to load up a pack mule to move any meaningful amount to a processor.

    Also rare nodes will be just that, rare. This isn't wow where a rare node means a handful up in each node and just having to follow your gathermate to every node until you find it and harvest a small amount just for it to respawn in a few minutes elsewhere.

    Some resources will last a while and would benefit from constructs for gathering/collecting.

    Also I'm a bit confused, are you complaining that resources would be too easy for you to get or that they are too prevalent? If there is too much supply then turn to processing or crafting and become part of the demand. Or are you complaining that once settlements are built you'd have all the workstations you'd need? You do understand that processing and crafting can only occur at specific work stations.. said work stations would be limited per node and freehold. So if your node is working on armor and weapon smithing as well as a foundry to make smelt ingots and other metal pieces you'd need to import the other components. And that'd require moving cloth, leather, dyes, and not only that; they'd need to be ready to assemble, so it'd have to be leather straps, belts, cloth insulation and padding, etc. Since we are limited to the number of crafting/processing stations we would have to trade with nearby people. And sometimes that means trading hundreds of pounds of metal goods to the places we are buying hundreds of pounds of other goods. Unless you want to trek across the zone to bring in enough materials to make your one crafted good, you'd want to deal in bulk.
  • Loyheta said:
    Hoax said:
    If resources spawn everywhere, what will be the point of running caravans once metropolises are built and the servers start to settle down. If I can get everything I need in one ZOI the game will end up being pretty static. 
    I believe nodes are suppose to last for a while and you will need to load up a pack mule to move any meaningful amount to a processor.

    Also rare nodes will be just that, rare. This isn't wow where a rare node means a handful up in each node and just having to follow your gathermate to every node until you find it and harvest a small amount just for it to respawn in a few minutes elsewhere.

    Some resources will last a while and would benefit from constructs for gathering/collecting.

    Also I'm a bit confused, are you complaining that resources would be too easy for you to get or that they are too prevalent? If there is too much supply then turn to processing or crafting and become part of the demand. Or are you complaining that once settlements are built you'd have all the workstations you'd need? You do understand that processing and crafting can only occur at specific work stations.. said work stations would be limited per node and freehold. So if your node is working on armor and weapon smithing as well as a foundry to make smelt ingots and other metal pieces you'd need to import the other components. And that'd require moving cloth, leather, dyes, and not only that; they'd need to be ready to assemble, so it'd have to be leather straps, belts, cloth insulation and padding, etc. Since we are limited to the number of crafting/processing stations we would have to trade with nearby people. And sometimes that means trading hundreds of pounds of metal goods to the places we are buying hundreds of pounds of other goods. Unless you want to trek across the zone to bring in enough materials to make your one crafted good, you'd want to deal in bulk.
    Ok, that makes more sense to me now. My main worry is resources are too plentiful and you will only need to run caravans among freeholds/cities in your own ZOI. This means as servers mature there will be very little new conflict that takes place. Players will not want to disrupt the status quo. Resource scarcity/displacement among competing ZOIs will keep conflict in the game long term.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Sounds like that will make mining a difficult profession to undertake.
    I guess that just begs the question, how long a vein will last in general.
  • Regional resources would be bad since people could simply put a monopoly on things and also before those resources are all discovered there would be solid progress in node development.
  • Regional resources would be bad since people could simply put a monopoly on things and also before those resources are all discovered there would be solid progress in node development.
    To craft you would need resources from different ZOIs, your region may have the timber needed but you need to make an alliance with a node in the mountains for ore. Therefore the nodes that make quicker progress are the ones that get their supply runs going quicker/more efficiently.
  • @Loyheta
    Loyheta said:
    Azathoth said:
    Static resources also allow a single group, not even necessarily associated with the node, to control access for the potential length of the game. For me this is a flaw many other MMORPGS have had and that Ashes is working on changing for the better.

    Change is better, let us adapt our play styles to fit Ashes and stop trying to force Ashes into a box that is obviously not doing well.
    idk... a group of people running protection on a rare node while their harvesters gather from it sounds exactly like what pvx should be.
    I'm not sure why that couldn't be done in Ashes with roaming resources. The only difference would be those gathering and running protection would occasionally have to move their set up. Is there something I am missing here?
  • Nope, you got it in one. The point that has been made earlier is that it helps promote conflict and change and keeps large groups from dominating an area or resource to the detriment of the game. Look at the shitshow Albion became with control of resources by groups that were making RMT off of that control. It was in their real financial interest to keep certain markets artificial so that people would buy those resources for currencies they could then convert to cash dolla dolla bills. So you may have a group of people that say "you must pay us to farm in this patch, or we will kill you over and over." but eventually that resource is going to to poof, and that group may find when they try the same shit in another location that the gatherers have big, pointy teeth of their own.
  • Hoax said:
    Loyheta said:
    Hoax said:
    If resources spawn everywhere, what will be the point of running caravans once metropolises are built and the servers start to settle down. If I can get everything I need in one ZOI the game will end up being pretty static. 
    I believe nodes are suppose to last for a while and you will need to load up a pack mule to move any meaningful amount to a processor.

    Also rare nodes will be just that, rare. This isn't wow where a rare node means a handful up in each node and just having to follow your gathermate to every node until you find it and harvest a small amount just for it to respawn in a few minutes elsewhere.

    Some resources will last a while and would benefit from constructs for gathering/collecting.

    Also I'm a bit confused, are you complaining that resources would be too easy for you to get or that they are too prevalent? If there is too much supply then turn to processing or crafting and become part of the demand. Or are you complaining that once settlements are built you'd have all the workstations you'd need? You do understand that processing and crafting can only occur at specific work stations.. said work stations would be limited per node and freehold. So if your node is working on armor and weapon smithing as well as a foundry to make smelt ingots and other metal pieces you'd need to import the other components. And that'd require moving cloth, leather, dyes, and not only that; they'd need to be ready to assemble, so it'd have to be leather straps, belts, cloth insulation and padding, etc. Since we are limited to the number of crafting/processing stations we would have to trade with nearby people. And sometimes that means trading hundreds of pounds of metal goods to the places we are buying hundreds of pounds of other goods. Unless you want to trek across the zone to bring in enough materials to make your one crafted good, you'd want to deal in bulk.
    Ok, that makes more sense to me now. My main worry is resources are too plentiful and you will only need to run caravans among freeholds/cities in your own ZOI. This means as servers mature there will be very little new conflict that takes place. Players will not want to disrupt the status quo. Resource scarcity/displacement among competing ZOIs will keep conflict in the game long term.
    This is where the other side of the PvX equation comes into play. There are limited metropolis and the bonuses will be large for them... but so are the bonuses for taking them down. While an economic metro allows node-wide auction house access which would tremendously help the economy, the rewards for destroying and deleveling this metro grow (possibly by the day). That means other nodes will wage war on you (war is good for crafters) and try to disrupt you.

    So you may be in the metro node and now your trading partners have stopped sending you materials because they want to destroy you or a 3rd party has offered them a better deal. Or maybe you are the ones trading to them but you feel like you are being shorted because of their boons.. and your node wants to take them down. Or you are a 3rd party node and you are offering more gold to the outside traders to cripple the metro.

    The goal this PvX game is to have PvE and PvP fairly balanced. To encourage everyone to take part in the entire game and to have content that drives each other. PvE and PvP levels nodes. Higher nodes benefit and create more PvE content while node competition encourages PvP
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    Loyheta said:
    Hoax said:

      
    This is where the other side of the PvX equation comes into play. There are limited metropolis and the bonuses will be large for them... but so are the bonuses for taking them down. While an economic metro allows node-wide auction house access which would tremendously help the economy, the rewards for destroying and deleveling this metro grow (possibly by the day). That means other nodes will wage war on you (war is good for crafters) and try to disrupt you.

    So you may be in the metro node and now your trading partners have stopped sending you materials because they want to destroy you or a 3rd party has offered them a better deal. Or maybe you are the ones trading to them but you feel like you are being shorted because of their boons.. and your node wants to take them down. Or you are a 3rd party node and you are offering more gold to the outside traders to cripple the metro.

    The goal this PvX game is to have PvE and PvP fairly balanced. To encourage everyone to take part in the entire game and to have content that drives each other. PvE and PvP levels nodes. Higher nodes benefit and create more PvE content while node competition encourages PvP
    Right this is exactly the type of meaningful conflict I want to see in the game. But if resources are not regional, metros will be self sufficient.In my mind daily PvP should be centered around caravans. Sieges will be rare things that will need a lot of political will/maneuvering and in game work to put together. I think a metro can be seiged every two months, but in reality I would think that one might get a serious challenge every six to eight. 

    The economy is what would drive the most conflict on an everyday basis. Forcing nodes to trade across the map will create more political alliances and enemies. Say I am in mountain node 1, you are in forest node 3. We are trading partners, therefore the people in mountain node 2 and forest node 2 have a vested interest in stopping our caravans. In turn I have a real interest in helping you defend or topple the metro in your area. If that is the case you would see large sieges more often. Every 2 months there are several nodes across the server that want to help a partner across the map defend or siege a metropolis. 

     If my node can get all the resources I need in my ZOI, who cares what happens anywhere else on the map. Why would I dedicate funds and resources to help a node in another ZOI do anything. 

    The economic fates of the entire server need to be tied together, and that all comes back to how resources are allocated. If you depend on changing PVE content to drive PvP conflict, my guess is that many ZOIs will just rotate which metropolis’s are built every few months. That way you will get to see all the different Dev given content.




     
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2018
    @Hoax

    When you say regionalized do you mean exclusive? Like only the forest node will be able to produce lumber and only the mountain node will be able to produce ore?

    I mean... they are. They've stated (very first line) that gathering will be natural/organic. You will only find resources where they are suppose to be. So while you'll be able to find a bit of everything everywhere if it makes sense, you'll still have to worry about harvest rates. If your self-produced supply is very low you will be forced to import to meet demand.
  • Hoax said:
    In reading the overview of how gathering clusters work, it states that once they are exhausted, it will respawn somewhere else in the world. Is that somewhere random anywhere on the map, or within that region. 

    I hope that resources are regional, so that certain nodes are more valuable because of the resources that are in the area. That would give a lot of weight to PvP and really make large scale wars worth something. It is also a way for the devs to subtly incite new battles. For instance they could add a new tier of weapons that use a new type of ore which makes the old resource less valuable and therefore everyone is now fighting for control over a different node. 
    No sorry. First we want nodes rising and falling to shift content. If certain nodes are the only ones with access to certain necessary resources this will happen less often if at all. Having nodes randomly spawn where ever and when ever they choose will promote a lot more movement through the game world. To find the best mats you're gonna have to get out there and search for them! For a game that wants a player driven economy this is a much better setup imho. As far as othering resources being less valuable. Well personally I hope all resources retain a certain level of usefulness in the game regardless if a player is level 1 or capped out. I always feel like stuff becoming obsolete later is a bit of a waste. Obviously we need more rare/hard to find mats. But it would be nice to see even the most base materials used in consumables or what not throughout all levels of play.
  • A list of reasons I may want to attack a node that is outside of my home metropolis ZOI.

    I want my metropolis to be the only one of it's flavor on the server, in order to maximize the value of it's specific bonus.

    I want to weaken a guild that calls the target node home.

    I am working on a grande scheme towards taking over a castle.

    My guild is looking to move to a different area, and are weakening the node as to be ready for takeover.

    I want access to content that the target node in it's current state has blocked.

    I have a grande alliance that has the population to maintain two metropoles, and need to take down an existing metropolis in order to level up a nearby node.

    I enjoy PvP.

    ---

    All of that said, a metropolis being defeated in a siege is something that should be rare. It changes the face of the server for every player - not just those from that metropolis.

    I mean, if you are on a server with a single trade metropolis and you have something valuable that you want to sell, you will take it to a node within that trade metropolis' ZOI to sell it, as the potential market is many times larger than any other market on the server. Likewise if you wish to buy something valuable, you'll look in a market attached to a trade metropolis if one is available to you.

    While it may be rare for a metropolis to lose a siege, sieges themselves are not necessarily going to be rare things. Just because two players are citizens of nodes that fall under the ZOI of the same metropolis, doesn't mean they are automatically friends.

    Citizens of a metropolis can declare sieges against nodes within their own ZOI if they wish. All players can freely attack any other players caravan, regardless of node affiliation. While sometimes it won't make sense for players to do this, there are times when it will make sense. 
  • Nope, you got it in one. The point that has been made earlier is that it helps promote conflict and change and keeps large groups from dominating an area or resource to the detriment of the game. Look at the shitshow Albion became with control of resources by groups that were making RMT off of that control. It was in their real financial interest to keep certain markets artificial so that people would buy those resources for currencies they could then convert to cash dolla dolla bills. So you may have a group of people that say "you must pay us to farm in this patch, or we will kill you over and over." but eventually that resource is going to to poof, and that group may find when they try the same shit in another location that the gatherers have big, pointy teeth of their own.

    I want big pointy teeth.. eats me some corrupted..   :D
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