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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
The dungeon dance
ArchivedUser
Guest
This has been in the back of my mind for quite some time now.
From my experience in MMO's doing dungeons becomes quite stale pretty quickly. I think the term was being used around here and somewhere else, that running dungeons is like a dance.
if you don't know the steps it can be extremely difficult and/or frustrating however if learn the steps it becomes a grindable situation.
I don't if this is a gripe for more people, for me though this became noticeable back when I was playing Elder Scrolls Online and Guild Wars 2. After that I just started watching videos of dungeons in other MMO's (final fantasy, never winter, Wow etc.). And the set formula of dungeons of : "go into room, fight, walk to next room, fight" is pretty much the same.
And the dungeon mechanics which are supposed to switch up the fights and make things more interesting usually feel really gimicky and boil down to :
- Use item X in some way to deal damage.
- Or the usual burn down the boss fast enough
It seems that dungeons seem to end up in a DPS race, or using some gimmicky item. And failure in these ends up in some form of one shot mechanic from enemies/boss.
Now this might be a personal gripe, that is not shared among others. However I was thinking isn't there a better way to do this? something that is more dynamic and requires players to adapt?
personally I was thinking of some akin to the 'director mode' like in Left4Dead, where depending on how well players are doing and in what situation they are more enemies would be thrown at them, or they could be ambushed.
Furthermore I would like to see different approaches in dungeons instead of the fight or wipe scenario. I would love to see moments where running away is a viable strategy where you actually bring classes/skills with you because they might help you get out it tight situations alive when the poop hits the fan.
Or where sometimes a stealth character can sneak by open up a path for the party where a fight can be avoided. Where some fights are so though that winning isn't an option but rather surviving and finding a path to escape to the next area is an objective.
Anyway these are just some examples, to summarize I would like to see dungeons that require a party to think quick on their feet and will be facing the unknown for a part.
That being said, I think there are a lot of challenges and problems involved,
- Production cost
- Balancing (to avoid certain strategies being too dominating)
- Memorability (you still want dungeons to be memorable, if they are too randomized they won't stand out)
- Difficulty (with more variables involved difficulty will be much harder to balance)
Now I am wondering do you see this a problem? If no why not? if you do what would you like to see implemented?
From my experience in MMO's doing dungeons becomes quite stale pretty quickly. I think the term was being used around here and somewhere else, that running dungeons is like a dance.
if you don't know the steps it can be extremely difficult and/or frustrating however if learn the steps it becomes a grindable situation.
I don't if this is a gripe for more people, for me though this became noticeable back when I was playing Elder Scrolls Online and Guild Wars 2. After that I just started watching videos of dungeons in other MMO's (final fantasy, never winter, Wow etc.). And the set formula of dungeons of : "go into room, fight, walk to next room, fight" is pretty much the same.
And the dungeon mechanics which are supposed to switch up the fights and make things more interesting usually feel really gimicky and boil down to :
- Use item X in some way to deal damage.
- Or the usual burn down the boss fast enough
It seems that dungeons seem to end up in a DPS race, or using some gimmicky item. And failure in these ends up in some form of one shot mechanic from enemies/boss.
Now this might be a personal gripe, that is not shared among others. However I was thinking isn't there a better way to do this? something that is more dynamic and requires players to adapt?
personally I was thinking of some akin to the 'director mode' like in Left4Dead, where depending on how well players are doing and in what situation they are more enemies would be thrown at them, or they could be ambushed.
Furthermore I would like to see different approaches in dungeons instead of the fight or wipe scenario. I would love to see moments where running away is a viable strategy where you actually bring classes/skills with you because they might help you get out it tight situations alive when the poop hits the fan.
Or where sometimes a stealth character can sneak by open up a path for the party where a fight can be avoided. Where some fights are so though that winning isn't an option but rather surviving and finding a path to escape to the next area is an objective.
Anyway these are just some examples, to summarize I would like to see dungeons that require a party to think quick on their feet and will be facing the unknown for a part.
That being said, I think there are a lot of challenges and problems involved,
- Production cost
- Balancing (to avoid certain strategies being too dominating)
- Memorability (you still want dungeons to be memorable, if they are too randomized they won't stand out)
- Difficulty (with more variables involved difficulty will be much harder to balance)
Now I am wondering do you see this a problem? If no why not? if you do what would you like to see implemented?
0
Comments
I thought IS mentioned something along the lines of Dungeons requiring Skills in addition to combat, so even if this balance was 80/20 Combat/Skills there is still lots of opportunity for things besides "burn down boss" and "use item X." If you have all the skills said challenges require that dungeon might be easier, if you are missing some of the designed for skills the dungeon could be harder.
This for me would be the best case scenario for dungeons with groups. Dungeons that can be ran solo would be a lot harder to balance for. For me that would be fine, I like challenges, I'm okay with not always being able to succeed, and I can role-play reasons why that dungeon is 'off-limits' to my character.
...that might not work so well for Solo players that are dead set on being able to do everything in Ashes solo, knowing IS is not aiming for that being a goal at all.
- Memorability (you still want dungeons to be memorable, if they are too randomized they won't stand out)
- Difficulty (with more variables involved difficulty will be much harder to balance)
That being said there is still only so much they can do, eventually all the combinations are going to be known.
However dungeons are also going to be seasonal, so some dungeons will be locked or open and others not depending on the in game season which will also add some diversity as you can't run certain dungeons all the time.
That and with nodes also changing what is available in the world if a node falls or grows it will also change things up.
And without fast travel and everyone bouncing to the next big thing if you get tired of the grind in whatever area you have put down roots, move far enough away and you get an entire different set of dungeons/raids.
@Morashtak
The adaptive AI would help a lot here, if it works as intended of course. The thing that I am worried about is that the adaptive AI can be baited/abused in certain ways.
Now this is highly speculative, however let's say the adaptive AI for some reason just doesn't work and they would have to replace it with something else. What would you like to see?
Additionally I think what also would be interesting to see in some dungeons, would be some form of detection in the lines of :
- make a lot of noise and you wake the hornet nest
- stay quiet and you'll you have less trouble
anyway like I said this highly speculative, but it might be interesting to theorize about it.
@nagash
shouldn't you be saying something like : "Dance for me puppets, dance!"
Scroll down on this page. You'll see a list of games the developers of Ashes have worked on.
Of the 7 there that are MMO's (though only 6 that were released), how many of them had the issue quoted above?
To me, the answer is "none of them".
People seem to be forgetting that this development team is already made up of veteran developers that have solved or worked around many of the issues other games - games with less experienced development teams - run in to.
The single game most of the Intrepid team seem to have worked on - EQ2 - is by far the game with the most varied group content I have ever seen or heard of in regards to an MMO.
To me, looking at the team at Intrepid and then asking them to not make mistakes from games like ESO, WoW or GW is like talking about going to the latest Christopher Nolen film, hoping he doesn't make it like a Micheal Bay film.
This development team have a pedigree, one they openly disclose on their website because they are quite proud of it. Rather than looking at what OTHERS have done, why not look at what THEY have done?
I mean, they are FAR more likely to build on their existing body of work than they are to rip off someone else's body of work.
I get your point, but this wasn't aimed the devs. I Was curious about how other players saw this this, and what their ideas were on tackling it.
I just like discussing mechanics like these, to gain new insights. How do other players see it? Why? How would they like to see it implemented and why ?
Maybe they don't even see it as an issue ?
The OP of this thread is the kind of thing someone browsing new MMO's could see, and leave thinking Ashes will just be another generic dungeon delving MMO.
"Now I am wondering do you see this a problem? If no why not? if you do what would you like to see implemented?"
But i could add an extra paragraph at the beginning to make it more clear.
Additionally discussions like these, if they get going, might provide some cool insights.
On the topic, I'd love to see problem solving be a big part of the game. Traps, levers, possible routes, puzzles etc. could really add variety and engagement to an area of gameplay that, as you rightly notice, can become very stale. I trust the developers have a range of excellent ideas for PvE content - I look forward to seeing it in action!
What would have been better though, is spending a few minutes looking in to the topic in relation to games the development team at Intrepid have worked on in the past. I mean, you mentioned five MMO's and one non-MMO game in the OP - none of which are games the development team here have worked on.
On the topic of 'possible routes'. What I personally would like to see is where failure in certain battles/events within the dungeon might not mean a certain wipe, if you manage to haul ass that is
But failure might lock a certain path forcing a party to take a more dangerous path. Or on the other hand succes might open new paths.
While it may still get stale after a few years once everyone has learned every variable of it, it would still greatly increase player interaction for quite some time, if not indefinitely.
On topic, though, I do think dungeons should be more than DPS races or checks. That is just lazy content creation. There should be puzzles and traps, need for CC and utility abilities, and perhaps even encounters where you cannot beat the enemy and just have to hold out for a certain amount of time and survive or run away while being chased. There are so many interesting ways a dungeon and its denizens can be constructed; I don't understand why DPS has become the norm nowadays.
Thank the almighty lords of Ashes that IS doesn't have a publisher breathing down their necks.