Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
General feedback from a 20 year MMO player
Hello, I've been playing MMOs for long time and id just like to share with you some of the ways MMOs fail.
Follow this advice and your MMO will still be spoken about and played in 20 years time.
1. Make sure the world feels alive and lived in.
Best example of this are Inns/taverns, players need to walk in and feel like people actually work and drink here, there has to be a bit of sleaze about it, people whispering in the corners, people drinking too much, each inn needs to feel different.
SWTOR had horribly bland and sterile cantinas that were always empty.
2. Exclusive items, I cannot stress this enough, gamers hate exclusive items, seeing something you can never obtain because of forces beyond your power is maddening for the average MMO gamer.
Anything in your store, make it permanent, nothing limited time only.
Even the pre order bonuses, make them available in game a year later, always have cool stuff dropping from bosses, it gets people doing content and if people are always doing content it forms a community.
Anything you need to remove from the store to make room for new stuff, put in game as super rare drops, the players will love you for it.
3. Subscription fee, I don't care much about sub fees, but if you added a loyalty reward of 50p off a year for three years, it would make your sub fee £7.50 a month instead of £9.00 (assuming that's how much it will be)
This would make you one of the cheapest MMOs out there, which means more players= more money.
4. Ignore pvp for awhile.
Hear me out..pvp players are a mystery to me, frankly I worry about any person who can just pvp endlessly and still enjoy it.
The only Pvp I enjoy is 1v1 duels and arenas of 2v2,3v3 etc.
The reason I say forget pvp at the start is that pvp players are going to be happy with whatever you give them, look at warsong gulch in WOW, its so simple and people still lose their shit over it.
Pve on the other hand is much tougher to get right, fill an MMO with boring kill and fetch quests, mixed with easy and bland dungeons and you will lose your pve players.
I don't use the term "Gold" often, but follow this feedback and its all you will be making, I assure you.
Comments
2. If they weren't exclusive, then they would just be items. IRL must be maddening for you too, realizing that there are things that you are just never going to achieve due to financial and timing decisions you have made. Just because you missed out, doesn't mean you get a second chance later. Uniqueness and exclusivity give people a sense of worth. Why the hell would I want to run around in the same cosmetics that any scrub who joins 5 years down the line can get?
3. It will be $15 US. No more, no less. I don't know what the conversion would be to whichever currency you are using, but I am sure you can figure it out. They have not announced any "loyalty" rewards so far. Doesn't mean they won't, but so far nothing announced. Then again, highly doubtful since there are already around 5k of their base with lifetime subs.
4. Not gonna happen. Pvp is one of the central issues to make the system work the way they have described it. Remove one of their "pillars" and the game would be broken from the beginning. The whole "remove pvp" or "remove restrictions on pvp" debate has raged back and forth over these forums all year. They know what they are planning to do and what it needs to get it done.
TL:DR Opinions are like Ashholes. And we have the best Ashholes.
Higher Node LvL = More Content unlocked for that Node & the overall game.
Arena-PvP is ... in all honestly ... is nothing like Open-World PvP ... you might as well call it training grounds if anything else. They'll still have Arenas -1v1, 2v2, 3v3 , 4v4 ... maybe more for Arenas ? But Intrepid's Term of ... " BattleGrounds " are considered a completely different term from Arenas. Regardless, combat is being designed via Group-Play/ Teamwork as opposed to being designed via 1v1
@Grimseethe What sorts of concerns do you have ?
Player owned inns sounds like RP, I'm not into RP.
The NPCs should be the most interesting part of the game.
Real life is the reason most of us game, Nothing needs to be exclusive, it doesn't mean everyone would wear the same stuff.
I was using my currency...remove $1.50 from $15 and you have yours.
The loyalty reward system would be a huge success.
I didn't say forget pvp forever, obviously have pvp at launch but pve is ultimately more important for longevity.
I don't give opinions, I give information that will work, that they can follow or not.
My concerns is that they will make a pretty MMO, that will make all the mistakes of ESO.
The devs of ESO didn't listen to my ideas until it was too late.
Too late for me anyway, but other seem to love it now.
They made so many mistakes and still do.
I need an MMO to last me forever as I cant make my own.
I don't know what it is you do in your professional life, but I guarantee that any time some random person walks in off the street to give you their opinions, you will afford those opinions as much thought as Intrepid affords these.
Look at their body of work, not someone else's.
I have similar reservations as you about ESO @Grimseethe but I do believe they made a good job on #1. I really enjoyed that you could walk around and hear people talking about what you'd done or had been doing. I agree that SWTOR and many other MMOs got this wrong but Tamriel did feel alive. I understand what you mean but I also believe that @UnknownSystemError makes a valid point. You don't need to participate in RP (Neither will I) but I do believe RP will add to the immersion generally.
My opinion differs from yours on #2 and #3 but I think you're mistaken about #4. They will never "leave PvP for a while" as it is absolutely central to the development of all that is good about Intrepid's vision. In fact, I would argue the opposite, that it's the PvP they need to get right from the start, more so than the PvE. Dungeons can get tweaked, bosses made harder etc but if the corruption system doesn't work as intended or any numbers of PvP related issues could irrepably damage this game.
I too want this MMO to be a game changer for the genre. I started playing MMO's when I was at Uni in 1999 and EQ blew me away at the time. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been blown away by MMO's since. The genre needs this game to work and I am confident that Intrepid know what they're doing, but let's not kid ourselves that the final product will be one of compromise as far as the wider community is concerned.
Just my 2 cents.
Your statements of fact (read: opinion) are not representative of all of our views. Please do not presume to speak on behalf of a community you evidently don't understand particularly well.
1. I agree. I like a world that feels alive, busy and engaging.
2. I disagree completely. Exclusive items and items that are incredibly hard to get/find are what makes MMOs special. It offers the opportunity to be unique in a world where people are following very similar story lines. Having access to everything always is not conducive to an inspiring MMO experience.
3. Their subscription fee is totally reasonable.
4. There are games that survive solely based on the strength of their PvP experience. PvP is enormous in today's gaming market. It would be absolute marketing foolishness to neglect PvP.
Not arrogance, truths relative to me over 20 years of gaming.
Sorry if it appears arrogant, I don't fake modesty when it isn't needed.
You cant possibly enjoy a game filled with items you can never receive.
This idea that everyone will look the same if all people are able to earn items is nonsense, not everyone's tastes ae the same.
I don't want these items handed to me I want to earn them.
The fee is reasonable if you're rich or don't pay bills.
Making it slightly lower via loyalty program, would be a ground breaking step for MMOs.
The game should have pvp, but pvp is super easy to make, pve as far as I'm concern all past mmos have failed pve.
My arguments are pretty self explanatory, use logic and foresight and they make perfect sense.
I'm done with this topic though, I have given information which would save any MMO.
If they don't use it, its their failing, not mine.
Please no more replies from anyone, thanks.
No increase for inflation, no increase to reflect the increased complexity of the games now vs then.
Ashes isn't even charging a box fee, nor charging for any expansions or future DLC. This makes it the cheapest pay-to-play MMO in the entire time you claim to have been playing MMO's - and that is before you factor in the games referral system.
Sure, there is a cash shop - but as it is cosmetic only, it is entirely optional.
Not that you seem to know the difference, but that is fact - not opinion.
When the game launches, the first players through are supposed to be among the first people in Verra for a thousand years.
If the world feels lived in, I'm going to have questions to ask.
We are going to be building the world from nothing. It shouldn't feel any more lived in than the living we - as players - live in it.
The responses to my comment are so disappointing.
They're all so black and white, so fixed in a certain moment in time with no thought of the future.
It pains me that you are the vocal majority and the ultimate downfall of MMOS with your limited imagination and creativity.
Not one of you used foresight when approaching my ideas.
Critically engaging with your ideas does not make this community lacking in creativity or imagination... In fact, if anything, said critical engagement is a demonstrating of precisely those two traits; imagination because we can see holes in your arguments and critique them, and creativity because we have our own ideas and want to make sure those are heard and yours aren't taken as gospel.
I really like @Noaani's point about the world feeling empty to start with. Well considered, and something I hadn't thought of. We don't want to move into an already busy world; that would jar hugely with the lore.
No offence but there's nothing creative or imaginative about your ideas at all. There's nothing original that folks who've been here a while haven't seen or read before. If your aim is to add credence to discussions that have already taken place or perpetuate ideas within the community I suggest you give pause before making sweeping generalisations about those who engage in dialogue with you.
@Noaani, I totally agree with you, I just took that as a given in my previous comment regarding #1.
Make the world vibrant.
Not exactly a new concept, though not one that fits in with *THIS* game.
Don't have exclusive items.
Exclusivity is a cornerstone of modern economics. Do some research in to diamonds. If you think developers take items out of an in game store to "make space", I'm not quite sure how to proceed in civil conversation with you.
Make the game cheaper.
The game is the cheapest non free-to-play MMO in years.
Ignore PvP to start.
PvP is one of the cornerstones of the game.
Rather than it being *US* not using foresight, it is you that hasn't done the research to see exactly what Ashes actually is as a game. Some of your points work well for many MMO's, but simply don't apply to *THIS* game the same way they would to other games.
Lol, nope....still none of you get it.
If my ideas are not original how come they don't exist in any MMO ever made.
One day maybe I will find a way to make my games, I'm going to get so many apologies on that day.
Wish I didn't make that comment, people don't get it and are just getting mad.
learning not to alienate myself in communities is really hard for me.
The fault is mine for failing to explain my ideas better, I don't have any vision aides.
If you could enter my mind for a moment you would completely understand how I'm right...saying I'm right is also something people hate, but I refuse to lie to myself.
Nuclear fission isn't a new idea, yet no one has done it.
Perpetual motion isn't a new idea, yet no one has done it.
Flying cars aren't a new idea, yet no one has done it.
it's really easy sitting at home, at your computer, coming up with these ideas. Implementing them, however, is another matter entirely.
Can you provide us to a link to the game you made with the world that feels alive and lived in?
*When* they're not implemented in games it's because they're bad ideas. They're not *new* ideas. As for your ideas all being new and neglected by the collective wisdom of RPGs, let's look more closely:
1. Lots of RPGs have tried to create living, breathing, engaging environments (and as has been stated, THIS MMORPG does not want such a thing to start with, as we're meant to be returning to the world after abandoning it).
2. Lots of MMORPGs in the past had very little exclusive content. Recently, some MMORPGs have abused cash shop structure.
3. Lots of MMORPGs give a discount for bulk-purchase of subscription, and some, such as ESO, encourage loyalty through store currency. I'm not sure why you think additional discounts on game pricing are going to maintain loyalty any more than these schemes already in motion.
4. Many games have forsaken PvP to the extent that they lose a huge number of players because there's no content to access in the end-game (and yes, pvp is no less an end-game infrastructure than pve). Again, this is not a relevant point anyway as AoC is trying to entwine the two elements of MMORPG gaming to create a far more complex PvX environment.
Your ideas are either not new or not relevant. Perhaps you are right; we all need to move on from this thread so we can spend our time commenting on more valuable areas.
You read my ideas in a very absolute way.
You need to read them from a future prospective.
The game doesn't have to have a busy world at the start, but that's not 100% what I meant.
I meant id like NPCS to have jobs and scripted schedules they adhere to based on what's happening in the world.
I want enemies that don't pace back and forth but that actually have lives and purposes.
Enemies that do everything in their power to survive combat with humanoids being almost equal to real players (line of sight, dodging, use of environment)
As for exclusive items, I believe everything down to a pet or dye pack is content and no one should miss out.
Children today will be gamers tomorrow, why should they miss out on content.
People have this insane idea that the entire player base will look the same if everyone has the ability to earn all items, utter nonsense.
No MMO has ever done a loyalty discount system, in the way I described.
It would be very public and noticeable and people would enjoy the visual side of seeing that reduced price go down each year.
Also encourage what I call the "meh" effect, where something is so cheap you pay for it, even if you may not like it.
Pvp is so easy to get right, all it requires is an active player base.
Once you have that add some arenas, instanced battlegrounds, some open pvp maps and done, pvp perfected.
Pve has never been done right in an MMO.
kill 10 of those, collect some of this, go escort this cat out of danger or pick up shit to fertilise my crops, I'm sick of it.
Quests should have branches of options and actually affect the world.
They should be as fun as they're challenging.
Any moron can make pvp great.
Pve will be their ultimate challenge, that and making a world that begs to be explored.
What I say may sound arrogant, but this is what utter surety sounds like.
I do not speak on matters I do not fully understand.
Are you saying they're impossible ideas, that cant be done.
My games are finished..in my mind.
Unfortunately I cant code or draw, or I would be in the process of changing the world of MMOs.
My standards are stupidly high, its a curse really.
But the games I've made I adore, so its safe to say the world would also.
I'm using game guru at the moment to try and make something, but it lacks the tools to do my games justice and I mind it quite hard to use.
I know how easy it was to come up with the ideas..as I've been sitting on them since I was a child
I can't draw but I can picture amazing and original art inside my mind.