Why ranged weapons need a minimum distance

ArchivedUser

A minimum distance for ranged attacks, especially for the ranger are important. 
It will promote smart gameplay at the same time as increasing immersion. Also, since rangers usually have high damage, this will serve as a form of balancing. This will also promote more decision making and positioning which is more fun for a player playing the ranger and more fun to play against. 

With this said, this does not mean the ranger should be useless during a close meele fight. Abilities designed to help the ranger in meele ranged should be avaible. An example of this could be some kind of vault or tumble. 

By not having a minimum distance some balancing and gameplay issues appear. For example a leather armored dude staying still in meele fight vs a large barbarian bashing him with simply sounds stupid. Also, this will ultimatly lead to rangers simply fighting in meele which is completly counter intuitive. 

ArchivedUser

To me that is quite unfair. 
A warrior can charge combined with a teleport or some movement augment they are instantly in your face. You have lost your main dps against someone who excels in what they are doing. You lose. If this does happen i'll happily create a warrior/mage instead of a mage/ haven't decided, probably warrior.

ArchivedUser

Actually, I think rangers and their ilk ought to be able to switch to dual wield melee when in close range.  This is how EQ2 does it and it works very well.  EQ2 also has Point Blank Range as an ability.

ArchivedUser

Rangers should also have attacks that slow or pin, it seems balanced.
There should be a damage curve for all classes imo.
Melee's damage should fall off the further out they go and they should be given the option to take ranged abilities to make up for some of that.
Ranged focused characters should fall off the closer they are and they should be given options to take melee abilities to make up for some of that.
Some classes should be balanced both ways, but not have the ability to reach the same level of DPS since their 'curve' would be flat. They should have the option for some abilities to help them focus a bit more on either.

Any way, this thread has been mulled over at least 4 times now including this one and a "one size fits all" answer has yet to be given.

Good luck @Marzzo1337

ArchivedUser

Joka99999 said:

To me that is quite unfair. 
A warrior can charge combined with a teleport or some movement augment they are instantly in your face. You have lost your main dps against someone who excels in what they are doing. You lose. If this does happen i'll happily create a warrior/mage instead of a mage/ haven't decided, probably warrior.

This is where skill comes into play. A skilled Ranger would be using every tool and trick possible to keep Fighters at a distance, while a Fighter will be using every toll and trick possible to close the distance.

Gap-closers like a teleport or charge tend to have a limited range as well as a cooldown. Rangers are hardly going to be sitting ducks (unless the Ranger literally stands still and neglects all mobility advantages).

Of course, we'll have to see how IS handles the issue.

I will state that in my last game (Rift), ranged DPS had no real limiters or disadvantages. Melee DPS was niche, and usually only played by those who had top-tier pocket-heals, or those who were too new to understand how much of a disadvantage they suffered. PvP battles were inevitably range-fests, and those who enjoyed melee classes either complained a lot or left to go find a game that actually understood balance.

I'd rather not see IS make the same mistake.

ArchivedUser

Marzzo1337 said:

" A minimum distance for ranged attacks, especially for the ranger are important. 
It will promote smart gameplay at the same time as increasing immersion. Also, since rangers usually have high damage, this will serve as a form of balancing. This will also promote more decision making and positioning which is more fun for a player playing the ranger and more fun to play against. 

With this said, this does not mean the ranger should be useless during a close meele fight. Abilities designed to help the ranger in meele ranged should be avaible. An example of this could be some kind of vault or tumble. 

By not having a minimum distance some balancing and gameplay issues appear. For example a leather armored dude staying still in meele fight vs a large barbarian bashing him with simply sounds stupid. Also, this will ultimatly lead to rangers simply fighting in meele which is completly counter intuitive. "

Many attributes which you have described have not yet been defined. If you limit what each Archetype is able to do, then it is essentially crippling what could become of it - especially if its based off of other MMO-Experiences ... as such it will mirror other MMOs , not only in design, but on a fundamental level. 

It opens-up new doorways of possibilities that would not be considered " the norm " in other MMORPGs. 

You say ,  " it'll break immersion " ? Well, thats quite the Contradiction. But possibly a balance of the two ideals. You must remember that these Stages that we about to enter are (one of) the most Critical in alot of ways ...  and i wouldn't dismiss the other possibilities of what could be - be considerate of other suggestions that (could) assist in making Combat better overall.

If not free-in-use , then AT LEAST one or two abilities that has no Parameter-limit NOR Range-Limit/ Minimum-Distance ... and not isolating/ relegating these potential abilities to solely High-levels either. 


Plus ... this idea of ... " No Parameter-limit nor Range-limit " can be considered for the Bard as well; depending on how they construct the Bard ... the Bard can make great use of this concept [ of no Range-Limit/ Distance-Limit] as well

[...]

When i think of Bards i think of a lot sources. 

• Casting Hallucinations 
• Spells involving Hyms, Verses - similar to " Curses " .
• Spells involving Manipulation , " Periodic Damage " , 
• Possible " Voodoo Magic "
• Musical Instruments

And maybe others  
But also these videos too:

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLe34Un8OXw
  
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsI5B6QQqIk  

The Bards can essentially be manipulators so as long as they have (more) freedom - including the Rangers

ArchivedUser

You should still be able to use range at close distances just with significant damage/accuracy reductions.  On that note though, say you choose to go Ranger/Ranger class spec, those reductions are probably less and maybe some different close range evade/slow abilities to help them increase distances.  BUT if you go, let's say Ranger/Warrior, you may get the full damage/accuracy penalty at close range, but will definitely have a close-combat skill set.  Should all be dependent on the class spec.  **My speculation and thoughts, don't stone me**

ArchivedUser

There's a bunch-more i can say about how bad of an idea this ...
 " Parameter-Limit/ Range-Limit/ Distance-Limit " is

But if Intrepid Devs' minds have already decided on the worse-case-scenario ... I'd at least like to be able to play an iteration of the Ranger in which it's Range is not limited for testing
All it needs for a potential baseline of Mechanics are ...

• The Arrow will not stop until it lands on something 
• ... There should be a .. " Peak-DMG " for DMG-ouput midway of the Travel-Distance of the Arrow , BUT if it travels for too long ... the DMG-output will decrease, potentially being (noticeably) weaker than it would normally be
• The in-game Wind mechanics should affect the Direction via a Random-Gust of Wind. The only issue with this one is ... I'm fairly confident that it may be a considerable Technical issue for the Server to relay this kind of info back. Plus, it'll make the Mage's Wind-Magic potentially anti to all of the Ranger's Bow-&-Arrow basic-attacks ... that's not imbued with Magic ...
•  ( hence: which is why i proposed for the Ranger to have at least one or two abilities with the Freedom of shooting the Arrow this way )

And there a bunch more i can say  about the Bard too ... but I'll only ask Intrepid - and anyone else on the Forums - if Intrepid considers not having a
Parameter-Limit/ Range-Limit/ Distance-Limit for long-range ...

because you say ... it'll " increase immersion " ... but tell me ... why is it that in tab-targetting MMORPGs ... that EVERY basic long-range attack follows its target like a heat-seeking-missile ? And its considered the norm? Something like this should've never been considered the norm - in fact, it should be more of an temporary-ability as opposed to being set to default

because we all know that "this"  breaks immersion. It gives preference to long-range via " Kite-&-Spank " , while close-range has to hustle

ArchivedUser

For some reason people seem to be really focused on the idea that their character will be the only one fighting against 'x' number of enemies....

The archer in real life is deadly because...either the enemy has to approach him and is slowed/blocked by terrain.  (or ambush) Or he is with a lot of other archers who use mass fire in a (wait for it) arch so the arrows plummet down at an angle.  

If a guy with a sword gets anywhere near a guy with a bow...the guy with the bow will die.  He knows it, and will rout long before that happens.

He won't stand there and hope to squeeze off one last shot that may or may not hit, and may or may not stop the guy with the sword from killing him.

So immersion?  Hell ya...make that guy with the bow run when the enemy gets too close.

An archer by himself is probably only good as a sniper.  Take a shot at an easy target and stay hidden....or run.  Not stand there while the wolf is chewing on his leg and shoot down at it.  Not run around in a circle pulling arrows out of his butt and shooting at the creature that somehow cant seem to get closer running straight at you.


Or worse...running backwards while shooting forwards.  These are artifacts of a computer engine, not real world archery.

ArchivedUser

In case people want to pull out the 'fantasy' card....lets look at a couple famous moments in Tolkien with archery.

Battle of Helms Deep.....thousands of orcs attack...much mayhem.  Legolas with his bow kills less then 20.  

Aragorn...a ranger.  Not a big user of the bow in the books.

My favourite....what happens when archers meet up with a fighter who can get up to them...Boromir.  Dozens of dead orcs with bows.  One fighter.

Farimir and his group..  Mostly archers.  FIght from ambush using terrain to keep the enemy back.  Pull back before they can regroup and charge.

Not much in the way of guys with bows standing in one spot out in the open plinking away at moving targets charging them.

ArchivedUser

mage>tank>ranger>mage and you have suport classes in between

That's why you don't leave a ranger alone on the front lines. you need to have people protecting you and buffing you. rember ashes will not be balanced around 1v1 but as a group, so some classes will beat others easily than others.

ArchivedUser

...but I want to solo as a ranger...
...I want to use my best DPS no matter how close or far away I am...
...I want to be able to swiftly get away from any charge...
...I want to be able to pin/slow any melee...
...limiting me in any of these aspects is an unfair advantage to other classes...

There, again, is not a best fit answer as this is preference. Those who don't appreciate or like rangers will want them to be more realistic for obvious reasons (many are valid).

Those that prefer rangers above all other classes will want them to feel as equals no matter how the combat turns and have reasons (many valid) for expecting that.

Classes should have options to give them some ability at their unnatural range (melee for ranged and ranged for melee). Some players will choose those options and others won't. If you will lose a few times because you weren't diverse enough that was a risk you took, and I am sure it will pay off more than it will fail.

ArchivedUser

No range for Ranger.

ArchivedUser

Azathoth said:
Classes should have options to give them some ability at their unnatural range (melee for ranged and ranged for melee). Some players will choose those options and others won't.

Your choice of subclass will likely determine whether you specialize or cover weaknesses. I'm not sure how well it will accomplish that though.

From what I've read, one's subclass will add bonuses to the primary class abilities that reflect the nature of the subclass. But I haven't heard anything about the choice of subclass leading to any new abilities.

Ranger/Fighter can play out in a number of ways. Perhaps the class combo will allow the Ranger to use some of its Ranger abilities at a closer range. Or perhaps the combo will introduce a small number of melee abilities for a Ranger to use when caught in melee range. Or perhaps the combo will not address melee range combat at all, and the Ranger will be forced to use it's normal Ranger utility abilities to move back into range.

Unless there is some information that I am missing, we have nothing but speculation at this point.

ArchivedUser

I would be fine if the ranger had melee capability that wasn't trash and somewhat viable if you injured the target first. Actually i'd quite like this. I don't know enough about mage tools for this to apply to mages. I think it should decrease accuracy. Maybe even buff melee in raids by 5% or something so they can be on par with ranged not caring about some mechanics?

ArchivedUser

If range weapons would get a minimum distance then meele also needs some sort of disadvantage, realistically it would be that they are slowed down quite a lot when they are hit whats more mages should easily be able to cast point blank but maybe they would take a small % of dmg when they do for the more flashy spells

ArchivedUser

AutumnLeaf said:

If range weapons would get a minimum distance then meele also needs some sort of disadvantage, realistically it would be that they are slowed down quite a lot when they are hit whats more mages should easily be able to cast point blank but maybe they would take a small % of dmg when they do for the more flashy spells

Melee do have a disadvantage against range. They have to get close enough to hit them because their max range is like 5-10 feet 

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

AutumnLeaf said:

If range weapons would get a minimum distance then meele also needs some sort of disadvantage, realistically it would be that they are slowed down quite a lot when they are hit whats more mages should easily be able to cast point blank but maybe they would take a small % of dmg when they do for the more flashy spells

Melee do have a disadvantage against range. They have to get close enough to hit them because their max range is like 5-10 feet 

I think you forgot that melee have a charge skill most of the time or some other form of gap closer, anyway reduced speed when being hit is pretty common especially if you get pelted with spells or arrows from a distance.

ArchivedUser

Marzzo1337 said:

A minimum distance for ranged attacks, especially for the ranger are important. 
It will promote smart gameplay at the same time as increasing immersion.

I guess my only response to that, is this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

ArchivedUser

AutumnLeaf said:

Zastro said:

AutumnLeaf said:

If range weapons would get a minimum distance then meele also needs some sort of disadvantage, realistically it would be that they are slowed down quite a lot when they are hit whats more mages should easily be able to cast point blank but maybe they would take a small % of dmg when they do for the more flashy spells

Melee do have a disadvantage against range. They have to get close enough to hit them because their max range is like 5-10 feet 

I think you forgot that melee have a charge skill most of the time or some other form of gap closer, anyway reduced speed when being hit is pretty common especially if you get pelted with spells or arrows from a distance.

I did not forget, but thanks. Ranged classes also usually have escape abilities and CC like cripples, roots, and stuns so gap closers aren't as effective as people are making them out to be. The warrior dashes in, the Ranger dashes out and roots you. And another thing to consider is that we will have a limited amount of skills we can have on our bar at any one time, people will have to pick and choose whether having extra gap closers or escapes are worth the loss in dmg and other utility abilities. If a melee person only picks one gap closer and the Ranger has one escape then the Ranger is still at an advantage because the Ranger will just get right back out of range as soon as the melee person charges in. If the melee has two gap closers and the Ranger has one escape then they need to switch to melee weapons. If they only have ranged attacks then they were simply ill prepared and should learn for next time. 

ArchivedUser

AutumnLeaf said:

I think you forgot that melee have a charge skill most of the time or some other form of gap closer

As I mentioned earlier, gap-closers tend to have limited range as well as a cooldown. We can only speculate about the gap-closing abilities in AoC, but I doubt they'll make range meaningless by making it too easy for melee to close the gap to their ranged opponents.

Regardless, at the start of combat the ranged DPS can use the majority of his best abilities against the melee DPS. The melee DPS may or may not have some ranged abilities to deploy while trying to close the gap. At this point, the ranges DPS should be kiting away from the melee DPS to maintain as much distance between the two as possible, all the while continuing to deploy his bread-and-butter abilities.

AutumnLeaf said:

anyway reduced speed when being hit is pretty common especially if you get pelted with spells or arrows from a distance.

I'm not sure that archers and wizards are able to cast their arrows/spells while at full sprint either. Perhaps IS will give them a pass in this regard, in which case they can give the melee DPS a pass as well.

Rumbleforge said:

Marzzo1337 said:

A minimum distance for ranged attacks, especially for the ranger are important. 
It will promote smart gameplay at the same time as increasing immersion.

I guess my only response to that, is this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

First off, that was a fantastic video. Not only is it relevant to the discussion, but it corrects some common misconceptions about archery that 99.9% of people likely have.

Lars Andersen is able to turn around and shoot an arrow that was aimed at his back while that arrow is still in the air. I think it is fair to say that Andersen is one of the best combat archers in the world, and perhaps the absolute best.

Even so, if he were to be pitted against one of the best swordsmen in the world at a starting range of 2.5 or less meters, he would find his hand impaled upon a sword before he could let off his arrow. The world's top swordsmen are no joke, and the fastest among them can execute an attack in 0.1 seconds.

That said, Lars Andersen certainly makes the point that one can nock and fire an arrow very quickly at targets that are 3+ meters away. I previously figured that an archer should not be able to use his bow within 5 meters of a target. After watching the video you posted, I'd reduce that limit to 2.5 or 3 meters.

Basically, if a melee warrior is close enough to you that extending your arm to shoot an arrow brings your arm within range

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

AutumnLeaf said:

Zastro said:

AutumnLeaf said:

If range weapons would get a minimum distance then meele also needs some sort of disadvantage, realistically it would be that they are slowed down quite a lot when they are hit whats more mages should easily be able to cast point blank but maybe they would take a small % of dmg when they do for the more flashy spells

Melee do have a disadvantage against range. They have to get close enough to hit them because their max range is like 5-10 feet 

I think you forgot that melee have a charge skill most of the time or some other form of gap closer, anyway reduced speed when being hit is pretty common especially if you get pelted with spells or arrows from a distance.

I did not forget, but thanks. Ranged classes also usually have escape abilities and CC like cripples, roots, and stuns so gap closers aren't as effective as people are making them out to be. The warrior dashes in, the Ranger dashes out and roots you. And another thing to consider is that we will have a limited amount of skills we can have on our bar at any one time, people will have to pick and choose whether having extra gap closers or escapes are worth the loss in dmg and other utility abilities. If a melee person only picks one gap closer and the Ranger has one escape then the Ranger is still at an advantage because the Ranger will just get right back out of range as soon as the melee person charges in. If the melee has two gap closers and the Ranger has one escape then they need to switch to melee weapons. If they only have ranged attacks then they were simply ill prepared and should learn for next time. 

Yeah but at the end of the day the range class is at a disadvantage and just remember that this would apply to PVE aswell and monsters dont tend to have the same limitations that players do, if 3 mobs went after you and all had some way to close the gap then any range class would be doomed in PVE and healers would technically not be able to heal if something was close to them either.

ArchivedUser

AutumnLeaf said:

Yeah but at the end of the day the range class is at a disadvantage and just remember that this would apply to PVE aswell and monsters dont tend to have the same limitations that players do, if 3 mobs went after you and all had some way to close the gap then any range class would be doomed in PVE and healers would technically not be able to heal if something was close to them either.

... I think there may be a miscommunication here.

You refer to ranged DPS being at a disadvantage, and to them being doomed when hostile DPS or mobs close the gap... but no one has suggested that ranged DPS be rendered useless at close range.

The only thing being discussed is the loss of the ranged DPS' ranged abilities with ranged weapons. At close range, perhaps the archer would rely on daggers, a short sword, a kick that creates some distance, a leap backwards, or a variety of other abilities that could be performed with a melee weapon, foot, or fist - preferably with the intent of creating some space so that the ranged DPS can get back to using ranged weapons. Heck, maybe the ranged DPS could also use his bow to bash attackers over the head!

The ranged DPS' melee abilities would likely be weaker than their ranged abilities, but it would be up to the player to create some distance once again in order to use the more effective ranged abilities.

This is where individual skill comes in.

ArchivedUser

Nefelia said:

AutumnLeaf said:

Yeah but at the end of the day the range class is at a disadvantage and just remember that this would apply to PVE aswell and monsters dont tend to have the same limitations that players do, if 3 mobs went after you and all had some way to close the gap then any range class would be doomed in PVE and healers would technically not be able to heal if something was close to them either.

... I think there may be a miscommunication here.

You refer to ranged DPS being at a disadvantage, and to them being doomed when hostile DPS or mobs close the gap... but no one has suggested that ranged DPS be rendered useless at close range.

The only thing being discussed is the loss of the ranged DPS' ranged abilities with ranged weapons. At close range, perhaps the archer would rely on daggers, a short sword, a kick that creates some distance, a leap backwards, or a variety of other abilities that could be performed with a melee weapon, foot, or fist - preferably with the intent of creating some space so that the ranged DPS can get back to using ranged weapons. Heck, maybe the ranged DPS could also use his bow to bash attackers over the head!

The ranged DPS' melee abilities would likely be weaker than their ranged abilities, but it would be up to the player to create some distance once again in order to use the more effective ranged abilities.

This is where individual skill comes in.

I was talking about the fact that if a range class should be at a disadvantage at close range then a melee class should be at a disadvantage at a distance (and I'm not talking about the distance itself since most classes will have gap closers most likely). I just dont like the idea since it literally deprives the class of what makes it that very class.

ArchivedUser

AutumnLeaf said:

Nefelia said:

AutumnLeaf said:

Yeah but at the end of the day the range class is at a disadvantage and just remember that this would apply to PVE aswell and monsters dont tend to have the same limitations that players do, if 3 mobs went after you and all had some way to close the gap then any range class would be doomed in PVE and healers would technically not be able to heal if something was close to them either.

... I think there may be a miscommunication here.

You refer to ranged DPS being at a disadvantage, and to them being doomed when hostile DPS or mobs close the gap... but no one has suggested that ranged DPS be rendered useless at close range.

The only thing being discussed is the loss of the ranged DPS' ranged abilities with ranged weapons. At close range, perhaps the archer would rely on daggers, a short sword, a kick that creates some distance, a leap backwards, or a variety of other abilities that could be performed with a melee weapon, foot, or fist - preferably with the intent of creating some space so that the ranged DPS can get back to using ranged weapons. Heck, maybe the ranged DPS could also use his bow to bash attackers over the head!

The ranged DPS' melee abilities would likely be weaker than their ranged abilities, but it would be up to the player to create some distance once again in order to use the more effective ranged abilities.

This is where individual skill comes in.

I was talking about the fact that if a range class should be at a disadvantage at close range then a melee class should be at a disadvantage at a distance (and I'm not talking about the distance itself since most classes will have gap closers most likely). I just dont like the idea since it literally deprives the class of what makes it that very class.

Being in close range should be be dangerous for a ranger. They already have access to two abilities in the Alpha 0 that help they get back out of melee range and they have a couple snares and roots already as well. A skilled Ranger will be able to keep their distance utilizing their abilities.
In pve they should be relying on their buddies to keep aggro off of them. In solo play, they should be equipped for the possibility of getting in melee (they should always be honestly).
Rangers do not necessarily have to be Ranged combatants all the time. They will get melee abilities and can use melee weapons so they have options. They have every oppurtunity to survive and win against primary melee combatants, they just have to play smarter than their opponent and be prepared by compensating for their weakness or bolstering their strength so much that their weakness no longer matters.

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

AutumnLeaf said:

Nefelia said:

AutumnLeaf said:

Yeah but at the end of the day the range class is at a disadvantage and just remember that this would apply to PVE aswell and monsters dont tend to have the same limitations that players do, if 3 mobs went after you and all had some way to close the gap then any range class would be doomed in PVE and healers would technically not be able to heal if something was close to them either.

... I think there may be a miscommunication here.

You refer to ranged DPS being at a disadvantage, and to them being doomed when hostile DPS or mobs close the gap... but no one has suggested that ranged DPS be rendered useless at close range.

The only thing being discussed is the loss of the ranged DPS' ranged abilities with ranged weapons. At close range, perhaps the archer would rely on daggers, a short sword, a kick that creates some distance, a leap backwards, or a variety of other abilities that could be performed with a melee weapon, foot, or fist - preferably with the intent of creating some space so that the ranged DPS can get back to using ranged weapons. Heck, maybe the ranged DPS could also use his bow to bash attackers over the head!

The ranged DPS' melee abilities would likely be weaker than their ranged abilities, but it would be up to the player to create some distance once again in order to use the more effective ranged abilities.

This is where individual skill comes in.

I was talking about the fact that if a range class should be at a disadvantage at close range then a melee class should be at a disadvantage at a distance (and I'm not talking about the distance itself since most classes will have gap closers most likely). I just dont like the idea since it literally deprives the class of what makes it that very class.

Being in close range should be be dangerous for a ranger. They already have access to two abilities in the Alpha 0 that help they get back out of melee range and they have a couple snares and roots already as well. A skilled Ranger will be able to keep their distance utilizing their abilities.
In pve they should be relying on their buddies to keep aggro off of them. In solo play, they should be equipped for the possibility of getting in melee (they should always be honestly).
Rangers do not necessarily have to be Ranged combatants all the time. They will get melee abilities and can use melee weapons so they have options. They have every oppurtunity to survive and win against primary melee combatants, they just have to play smarter than their opponent and be prepared by compensating for their weakness or bolstering their strength so much that their weakness no longer matters.

Well I guess we all have different opinions I just dont like it especially in solo it would just take the fun away from the classes.

ArchivedUser

AutumnLeaf said:

I was talking about the fact that if a range class should be at a disadvantage at close range then a melee class should be at a disadvantage at a distance (and I'm not talking about the distance itself since most classes will have gap closers most likely). I just dont like the idea since it literally deprives the class of what makes it that very class.

Keep in mind that gap closers tend to not have unlimited range, and tend to have a cooldown as well. If a ranged DPS kites well, the melee DPS will have a hard time closing that gap.

Perhaps you can point out a game in which the a melee DPS could keep up with ranged DPS with ease. My personal experience runs the other way, but there are many gamed that I have not played. Perhaps your experience is different, in which case I'd like to hear about it.

Regardless, eliminating the use of ranged weapons at a 2.5 to 5 meter range is hardly depriving the ranged player of its flavour. It is placing a sensible restriction for the sake of balance and immersion. Our disagreement seems to stem from our different perceptions of how often a ranged DPS would lose the use of his ranged weapons.

In PvP situations, a ranged DPS player would have to keep positioning and mobility in mind at all times. The enemy moves up, the ranged DPS moves back. The enemy uses a gap closer, the ranged DPS uses a root while moving back. The enemy breaks out of the root and approaches again, the ranged DPS uses an ability to 'slow' the opponent. And so on.

With enough practice, kiting out of a melee player's range becomes second nature, and getting stuck in melee range becomes more and more uncommon. I'm frankly more concerned about AoC making melee competitive, rather than the walking practice dummy it ended up being in Rift.

ArchivedUser

AutumnLeaf said:

I think you forgot that melee have a charge skill most of the time or some other form of gap closer

As I mentioned earlier, gap-closers tend to have limited range as well as a cooldown. We can only speculate about the gap-closing abilities in AoC, but I doubt they'll make range meaningless by making it too easy for melee to close the gap to their ranged opponents.

Regardless, at the start of combat the ranged DPS can use the majority of his best abilities against the melee DPS. The melee DPS may or may not have some ranged abilities to deploy while trying to close the gap. At this point, the ranges DPS should be kiting away from the melee DPS to maintain as much distance between the two as possible, all the while continuing to deploy his bread-and-butter abilities.

AutumnLeaf said:

anyway reduced speed when being hit is pretty common especially if you get pelted with spells or arrows from a distance.

I'm not sure that archers and wizards are able to cast their arrows/spells while at full sprint either. Perhaps IS will give them a pass in this regard, in which case they can give the melee DPS a pass as well.

Rumbleforge said:

Marzzo1337 said:

A minimum distance for ranged attacks, especially for the ranger are important. 
It will promote smart gameplay at the same time as increasing immersion.

I guess my only response to that, is this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

First off, that was a fantastic video. Not only is it relevant to the discussion, but it corrects some common misconceptions about archery that 99.9% of people likely have.

Lars Andersen is able to turn around and shoot an arrow that was aimed at his back while that arrow is still in the air. I think it is fair to say that Andersen is one of the best combat archers in the world, and perhaps the absolute best.

Even so, if he were to be pitted against one of the best swordsmen in the world at a starting range of 2.5 or less meters, he would find his hand impaled upon a sword before he could let off his arrow. The world's top swordsmen are no joke, and the fastest among them can execute an attack in 0.1 seconds.

That said, Lars Andersen certainly makes the point that one can nock and fire an arrow very quickly at targets that are 3+ meters away. I previously figured that an archer should not be able to use his bow within 5 meters of a target. After watching the video you posted, I'd reduce that limit to 2.5 or 3 meters.

Basically, if a melee warrior is close enough to stab your extended arm, he is too close for you to use a bow.

ArchivedUser

Rumbleforge said:

Marzzo1337 said:

A minimum distance for ranged attacks, especially for the ranger are important. 
It will promote smart gameplay at the same time as increasing immersion.

I guess my only response to that, is this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

That was an awesome video!  

ArchivedUser

I agree with OP and since you will be able to pick warrior/rogue or maybe even tank to have some melee attacks/defence i think that all the rangers ranged/archery attacks should have a minimum range system... if you die in PvP maybe pick the skills from the ranger class or another class that will help you get away or to kick them back. 

We have to wait and see but i hate seing in your face archery classes and would rather have them have a minimum range. 

ArchivedUser

Marzzo1337 said:

A minimum distance for ranged attacks, especially for the ranger are important. 
It will promote smart gameplay at the same time as increasing immersion. Also, since rangers usually have high damage, this will serve as a form of balancing. This will also promote more decision making and positioning which is more fun for a player playing the ranger and more fun to play against. 

With this said, this does not mean the ranger should be useless during a close meele fight. Abilities designed to help the ranger in meele ranged should be avaible. An example of this could be some kind of vault or tumble. 

By not having a minimum distance some balancing and gameplay issues appear. For example a leather armored dude staying still in meele fight vs a large barbarian bashing him with simply sounds stupid. Also, this will ultimatly lead to rangers simply fighting in meele which is completly counter intuitive. 

You haven't seen The Lord of the Rings? 
Legolas is an archer.. He point blank shoots Orcs n Goblins in their eyesockets, then pulls out a dagger n cuts their throat before kebabbing another 3 with a single arrow.