Watched the latest combat video and just not happy

ArchivedUser

cant wait to test it   

ArchivedUser

My hopefully constructive criticism is that the human movement was not quite as fluid as I would prefer.  Camera placement was a little disorienting.  The color flashes seemed a bit extreme.

I get the idea of immersion.  So perhaps I could get used to the camera placement and the mind-blowing explosions and blinding light.  I also understand that camera placement will be adjustable.

However, hopefully the movement of the players will be a little more fluid.

(Yes, I know it is Alpha or pre-Alpha.  I also know the developers are asking for thoughts and constructive criticism.)

ArchivedUser

considering the improvements they already made about the combat in general, and considering the small time slot they needed to accomplish it, im pretty darn sure it will be very fluid once it needs to be


i think fluidity is not a thing to discuss in/before an alpa 1 phase, but i get your point

ArchivedUser

Tab targetting = button mashing and knowledge of rotation and placement

True action (Tera is the only mmo with true action so far, no matter how poorly supported it is by the devs XD) = requires fast reaction time and where to place your attacks

ArchivedUser

As far as I am concerned the Action Combat is the way to go. I've been playing MMOs since UO and while tab target only games can do it right and have a fun combat system it will always be lacking in comparison to Action Combat. Most action combat games out now that are also MMO's (GW2, ESO, Wildstar, BNS etc) have all had limited action sets (limited number of abilities you could set at any given time). They have done well for themselves, but they were more hybrid systems with soft targeting. Then you have games like MO and Darkfall that didn't do so hot. It was a myriad of reasons as to why they didn't do well and had nothing to do with the chosen action combat. 

Now there are two prime examples of action MMOs without limited action sets, BDO and TERA. BDO is a game that is not slowing down. TERA is a game that survived and is surviving because of its combat. 

That says something when a game is alive only because of its combat. Just shows how great the combat is in that game. If Ashes could bring a combat system that could literally carry the game to success and also have all the systems they plan on bringing, I say more power to them. 

The only real difference between Tab target and Action combat is the extra layer action combat brings of having to be skilled enough to aim and dodge. Everyone argues that tab target is more tactical etc. Plain and simply false. Everything that a tab target system has, an action combat system has as well. It just forces you to think faster and play at a higher skill level. 

ArchivedUser

Vunak said:

As far as I am concerned the Action Combat is the way to go. I've been playing MMOs since UO and while tab target only games can do it right and have a fun combat system it will always be lacking in comparison to Action Combat. Most action combat games out now that are also MMO's (GW2, ESO, Wildstar, BNS etc) have all had limited action sets (limited number of abilities you could set at any given time). They have done well for themselves, but they were more hybrid systems with soft targeting. Then you have games like MO and Darkfall that didn't do so hot. It was a myriad of reasons as to why they didn't do well and had nothing to do with the chosen action combat. 

Now there are two prime examples of action MMOs without limited action sets, BDO and TERA. BDO is a game that is not slowing down. TERA is a game that survived and is surviving because of its combat. 

That says something when a game is alive only because of its combat. Just shows how great the combat is in that game. If Ashes could bring a combat system that could literally carry the game to success and also have all the systems they plan on bringing, I say more power to them. 

The only real difference between Tab target and Action combat is the extra layer action combat brings of having to be skilled enough to aim and dodge. Everyone argues that tab target is more tactical etc. Plain and simply false. Everything that a tab target system has, an action combat system has as well. It just forces you to think faster and play at a higher skill level. 

BOOM, Nailed it dude. Love your explanation. I was lazy and went very simple with mine XD

*Grabs popcorn* Now it is time to wait for the tabbies to come screeching in and listen to them wale like banshees

ArchivedUser

I hope there will be a mix of skills which hit the target automatically and skills which need to be aimed. Also an ''action camera'' with a crosshair instead of the tab target style with a cursor. From what I've heared it the game will offer this.

ArchivedUser

Yep, they have quoted 75/25 as the mix you will have to go with. There will be no one with 100 percent action skills or 100 percent tab target. So there will be "wails" from the action brahs too. Hybrid is just that. Could go 50/50 or 60/40, up to you. There are reticules, they were just UI disabled for the latest video.

ArchivedUser

... this discussion would be better without antagonistic partisans trolling the forums.

If you prefer tab-targeting, then good for you. But there is no need to be a prick about it. Same goes for those who prefer action combat.

I do have issue with BDO's combat, but it has nothing to do with the fact that it is action combat. Instead, I am more concerned with the ridiculous range of melee attacks and the AoE spam I see in the various BDO videos I've watched.

Of course, the bland nature of BDO's PvE combat doesn't help. There is so much potential there for engaging combat, but instead BDO players are just stuck with farming mob clusters like a chore.

ArchivedUser

Vunak said:

The only real difference between Tab target and Action combat is the extra layer action combat brings of having to be skilled enough to aim and dodge. Everyone argues that tab target is more tactical etc. Plain and simply false. Everything that a tab target system has, an action combat system has as well. It just forces you to think faster and play at a higher skill level. 

Well, the thing that tab-target typically has that action combat does not is more time to think through tactics. Which is why action combat is called action combat.
And RPGs are supposed to provide sufficient time for analysis to think through tactics and counter-tactics.

That being said - I typically prefer playing action combat MMORPGs over tab-target MMORPGs. The tab-target only MMORPGs just feel way too slow movement-wise after playing action-combat MMORPGs.
Direct PvP combat is my least favorite aspect of MMORPGs, so I don't ex[ect to be enjoying this next phase of Alpha testing, but it's all very early. And a thin slice of combat.
Seems like we would still need to wait until we're able to play with a mix of tab-target and action abilities and augments to properly pass judgment on how fun the combat will feel. And, I will need to be able to factor in PvE combat since I don't enjoy direct PvP combat.

ArchivedUser

Vunak said:

TERA is a game that survived and is surviving because of its combat. 

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Tera isn't surviving anything, and even if it would not cause it's pathetic combat.

Tera atm is dead, that's a fact and even the hardcore tera players admit, that it have abysmal palyerbase. Even it's developers abandoned the game, as they have no clue what to do with it.

But that's pretty much the same on ALL action based combat mmos... yeah, it's flashy... it's fun for a week or two, but after that, it become repetitive and boring.

It's laughable seeing a small but louder minority that get hyped every time there are a game with action combat in it, but too bad... they are the first who leave within a half year for a another game.

You can't build a mmorpg upon hyped kids...

btw use your brain a little. Realistically that's combat isn't any better than the already existing action based mmo's combat, so why would one pick aoc?

There are tons of (failed) action based game already, and pretty much all of the are f2p/b2p (as they failed with the subscription quickly after launch), why would anyone play with aoc, where you need to pay every month, when it has literately tons of f2p alternatives?

You are pretty egoist if you think that it will be the messiah of the mmorpgs, and will change everything out from nowhere...

From the thing looks so far, there will be a initial hype, lasting for a half or so year, and it will be at least partly f2p within 2years of release due to low playerbase.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Vunak said:

The only real difference between Tab target and Action combat is the extra layer action combat brings of having to be skilled enough to aim and dodge. Everyone argues that tab target is more tactical etc. Plain and simply false. Everything that a tab target system has, an action combat system has as well. It just forces you to think faster and play at a higher skill level. 

Well, the thing that tab-target typically has that action combat does not is more time to think through tactics. Which is why action combat is called action combat.
And RPGs are supposed to provide sufficient time for analysis to think through tactics and counter-tactics.

That being said - I typically prefer playing action combat MMORPGs over tab-target MMORPGs. The tab-target only MMORPGs just feel way too slow movement-wise after playing action-combat MMORPGs.
Direct PvP combat is my least favorite aspect of MMORPGs, so I don't ex[ect to be enjoying this next phase of Alpha testing, but it's all very early. And a thin slice of combat.
Seems like we would still need to wait until we're able to play with a mix of tab-target and action abilities and augments to properly pass judgment on how fun the combat will feel. And, I will need to be able to factor in PvE combat since I don't enjoy direct PvP combat.

Aion would like to have a work with you. 

ArchivedUser

Nanfoodle said:

reaccon said:

Judge, soon we will 

I guess its a little too early to say that the combat system is gonna be a one hit wonder thing, but i found the new combat video very refreshing. I think the Camera-Mode made it look super agile and speedy.
Though i think, once we have all classes, augmented skills etc added to the game it will still be a nice combat system. They definitely added speed to the combat, which i personally find awesome  but i dont think its gonna be or feel like a warframe copy. We will see

It was made clear the people in the combat video that died were one shotted because of hit boxes. Aim in the right spot and it can happen with the right skills. Like the head shots you keep seeing in the combat video. 

The mix is tab targeting and action hybrid game, letting people train in what kind of skills they would rather play. Tab classic skills or action style skills. This makes me mad to see the action skills one shotting people as this is not how tab target skills work. As pointed out by Steven, that tab skills will random roll hits and misses. This will unbalance PvP and make tab target skills much weaker. This is a mess and wont work. If you promise tab targetting and tactic type combat and then hand over this hot mess its a sad bait and switch. 

You realize this was only a showcase of one half of the combat system? And it is not an accurate representation of combat balance?

Quite simply, the damage to headshots could have been dramatically turned up to make a flashy gameplay trailer. Calm your tatas until we can actually play it and see how the game is balanced. 

P.S. Before you say “it’s not balanced, just look at the trailer”, go back and read my first paragraph. 

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Vunak said:

The only real difference between Tab target and Action combat is the extra layer action combat brings of having to be skilled enough to aim and dodge. Everyone argues that tab target is more tactical etc. Plain and simply false. Everything that a tab target system has, an action combat system has as well. It just forces you to think faster and play at a higher skill level. 

Well, the thing that tab-target typically has that action combat does not is more time to think through tactics. Which is why action combat is called action combat.
And RPGs are supposed to provide sufficient time for analysis to think through tactics and counter-tactics.

That being said - I typically prefer playing action combat MMORPGs over tab-target MMORPGs. The tab-target only MMORPGs just feel way too slow movement-wise after playing action-combat MMORPGs.
Direct PvP combat is my least favorite aspect of MMORPGs, so I don't ex[ect to be enjoying this next phase of Alpha testing, but it's all very early. And a thin slice of combat.
Seems like we would still need to wait until we're able to play with a mix of tab-target and action abilities and augments to properly pass judgment on how fun the combat will feel. And, I will need to be able to factor in PvE combat since I don't enjoy direct PvP combat.

I will have to disagree with this. If you take for example some of the more popular tab target games that have come out over the years like Lineage 2, WoW, SWTOR, GW1 and even FFXIV with its long GCD. They are very fast paced games when you are playing at the top end of play. You have about as much time to plan your next attack as you do in a game like TERA. 

Sometimes you have even more time in a game that has Action Combat because you can effectively kite and dodge attacks while trying to plan your next attack, where as in a tab target game your only real tool of mitigation is maybe defensive skills or LOSing behind something since everything tracks and has a backend rng mechanic of hit/miss. Which again, you can do the same in an Action Combat game along with the already mentioned. 

ArchivedUser

Vunak said:

Dygz said:

Vunak said:

The only real difference between Tab target and Action combat is the extra layer action combat brings of having to be skilled enough to aim and dodge. Everyone argues that tab target is more tactical etc. Plain and simply false. Everything that a tab target system has, an action combat system has as well. It just forces you to think faster and play at a higher skill level. 

Well, the thing that tab-target typically has that action combat does not is more time to think through tactics. Which is why action combat is called action combat.
And RPGs are supposed to provide sufficient time for analysis to think through tactics and counter-tactics.

That being said - I typically prefer playing action combat MMORPGs over tab-target MMORPGs. The tab-target only MMORPGs just feel way too slow movement-wise after playing action-combat MMORPGs.
Direct PvP combat is my least favorite aspect of MMORPGs, so I don't ex[ect to be enjoying this next phase of Alpha testing, but it's all very early. And a thin slice of combat.
Seems like we would still need to wait until we're able to play with a mix of tab-target and action abilities and augments to properly pass judgment on how fun the combat will feel. And, I will need to be able to factor in PvE combat since I don't enjoy direct PvP combat.

I will have to disagree with this. If you take for example some of the more popular tab target games that have come out over the years like Lineage 2, WoW, SWTOR, GW1 and even FFXIV with its long GCD. They are very fast paced games when you are playing at the top end of play. You have about as much time to plan your next attack as you do in a game like TERA. 

Sometimes you have even more time in a game that has Action Combat because you can effectively kite and dodge attacks while trying to plan your next attack, where as in a tab target game your only real tool of mitigation is maybe defensive skills or LOSing behind something since everything tracks and has a backend rng mechanic of hit/miss. Which again, you can do the same in an Action Combat game along with the already mentioned. 

Speaking as someone who has invested time in WoW, SWTOR, and FFXIV, I kinda feel like you probably never played any of those games if you're saying there is no dodging or kiting elements that exist anywhere besides action combat games, let alone that your argument against tab targeting gives you time to think is that some percentage of certain tab target games have a portion of an endgame which is fast paced. So tell you what? I'll concede that maybe, in that specific circumstance, you might be right that action might possibly give more breathing room. Too bad that only accounts for about 3% of the overall experience, and the rest of the time tab targeting really is the way we frame it.

ArchivedUser

Lythawan said:

Vunak said:

Dygz said:

Vunak said:

The only real difference between Tab target and Action combat is the extra layer action combat brings of having to be skilled enough to aim and dodge. Everyone argues that tab target is more tactical etc. Plain and simply false. Everything that a tab target system has, an action combat system has as well. It just forces you to think faster and play at a higher skill level. 

Well, the thing that tab-target typically has that action combat does not is more time to think through tactics. Which is why action combat is called action combat.
And RPGs are supposed to provide sufficient time for analysis to think through tactics and counter-tactics.

That being said - I typically prefer playing action combat MMORPGs over tab-target MMORPGs. The tab-target only MMORPGs just feel way too slow movement-wise after playing action-combat MMORPGs.
Direct PvP combat is my least favorite aspect of MMORPGs, so I don't ex[ect to be enjoying this next phase of Alpha testing, but it's all very early. And a thin slice of combat.
Seems like we would still need to wait until we're able to play with a mix of tab-target and action abilities and augments to properly pass judgment on how fun the combat will feel. And, I will need to be able to factor in PvE combat since I don't enjoy direct PvP combat.

I will have to disagree with this. If you take for example some of the more popular tab target games that have come out over the years like Lineage 2, WoW, SWTOR, GW1 and even FFXIV with its long GCD. They are very fast paced games when you are playing at the top end of play. You have about as much time to plan your next attack as you do in a game like TERA. 

Sometimes you have even more time in a game that has Action Combat because you can effectively kite and dodge attacks while trying to plan your next attack, where as in a tab target game your only real tool of mitigation is maybe defensive skills or LOSing behind something since everything tracks and has a backend rng mechanic of hit/miss. Which again, you can do the same in an Action Combat game along with the already mentioned. 

Speaking as someone who has invested time in WoW, SWTOR, and FFXIV, I kinda feel like you probably never played any of those games if you're saying there is no dodging or kiting elements that exist anywhere besides action combat games, let alone that your argument against tab targeting gives you time to think is that some percentage of certain tab target games have a portion of an endgame which is fast paced. So tell you what? I'll concede that maybe, in that specific circumstance, you might be right that action might possibly give more breathing room. Too bad that only accounts for about 3% of the overall experience, and the rest of the time tab targeting really is the way we frame it.

Mmm I suppose I could go through my "credentials" but that would seem more like bragging than actually adding anything meaningful to the discussion. Suffice it to say I have had a lot of experience in the top end of those games listed and the games I listed. 

There are kiting elements to any game really. Even GW1 which was a much more difficult game to pull kiting off on. The amount of dodging in tab target games is very minimal. They don't have ingrained mechanics such as I-frames that action combat games have.

Most defensive play in tab targeting comes from intelligent use of Cooldowns like Saber Ward in SWTOR or Unending Resolve in WoW. In the case of FFXIV it has telegraphs on the Limit Breaks in PvP and on big abilities in PvE, but in PvP the telegraph really doesn't matter  because of how the game operates. As soon as that telegraph is placed the ability already fired on the backend meaning even if you move out of something like Terminal Velocity's telegraph before it fires animation wise you are still going to take damage. 

In a tab target game once the spell is casted or ability is used everything is dictated by the backend of whether that ability hit/missed, which is based on when the ability was actually used. So if you LOS someone but it was after an ability was used it will track to you whether you are behind something when the animation actually catches up with the game. 

In an action combat game like TERA you can actually move out of the way of abilities and skills without using any ability whatsoever aside from your WASD. You can very effectively make people miss attacks and leave themselves open to counter play just by having intelligent movement. 

Ahhh good. Made up statistics that's what we needed. 

ArchivedUser

Yeah, I started kiting in EQ vanilla.
I dunno about dodging in WoW. I suppose there is some, but I prefer the Dodge of NWO and Wildstar.
In WoW, you really move away rather than Dodge.

Last year at PAX West, it felt like I was able to use obstacles to break line of sight, so I hope that remains a viable tactic even with against tab-target attacks at launch.

ArchivedUser

Nefelia said:

... this discussion would be better without antagonistic partisans trolling the forums.

If you prefer tab-targeting, then good for you. But there is no need to be a prick about it. Same goes for those who prefer action combat.

I do have issue with BDO's combat, but it has nothing to do with the fact that it is action combat. Instead, I am more concerned with the ridiculous range of melee attacks and the AoE spam I see in the various BDO videos I've watched.

Of course, the bland nature of BDO's PvE combat doesn't help. There is so much potential there for engaging combat, but instead BDO players are just stuck with farming mob clusters like a chore.

I apologise, my first post in this forum may have been filled with too much salt. I'm a GW1 vet that played the game to death and was woefully disappointed with GW2. The first Ashes of Creation gameplay videos gave me hope that I could relive the glory of old in the present day.

I have no problem with people that enjoy action oriented MMO's, people have different tastes. Just got my hopes up is all.

ArchivedUser

I really don't pay much attention to the forums, live streams, etc.....but hasn't it been stated from the beginning that they wanted a mix of action and tab targeting? i'm not sure why everyone is so surprised by this, it was always in the plans.

ArchivedUser

I agree action combat requires a high level of skill, but that doesn't mean it's the best option for mmos.

With a broad skill set and deep tactical options the skill requirement may just be unrealistic for many people, causing big fights to slow down, ironically. Who knows if it's practical.

Also, everyone assumes action combat is the best way to simulate all action types. In classic RPGs some spells target by sight, not with targeting hand gestures, so I feel tab targeting by player vision on the screen maybe simulates this better than action combat..just a thought.

ArchivedUser

I mean we're going into Alpha testing soon so the whole point is to see whether the combat works. Personally I am a fan of action combat, I am an avid pvper so I prefer having to rely on personal skill over cookie cutter builds and skill rotations. As my only comparison, GW2 did mostly a good job with  their hybrid combat as a system until the balancing issues got out of hand, yet GW2 lacked the build diversity that I loved in GW1. but this alpha footage feels very different in a good ways. What I saw looked promising especially the movement animations. The camera angle works very well with this kind of combat, the field of view is big enough to see what is going on in front but not so big you get overwhelmed and distracted by everything that might be going on. It shows that positioning and flanking will hold more strategic importance during gameplay. My only criticism is that the skills are maybe a little too flashy, but like I said the movements looked really good (EDIT: maybe a little floaty and lacking weight but again this is alpha footage) the inclusion of the dodge roll also made me very happy. 
The fact they're testing combat with pvp along side pve is also a good move, balancing around pvp first then adjust for pve and you can't go wrong. Cant wait to see the tab target included in phase 2, when done correctly both sides of combat can cater for each playstyle preference without hindering or overshadowing the other.

ArchivedUser

R41D3NZ said:

I really don't pay much attention to the forums, live streams, etc.....but hasn't it been stated from the beginning that they wanted a mix of action and tab targeting? i'm not sure why everyone is so surprised by this, it was always in the plans.

To be fair I only recently discovered Ashes and went in without prior knowledge, if I had known before hand they would include the Guildwars 2 esque gameplay I wouldn't have made a fuss.