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The New Bar which needs to be met regarding Combat/movement Animations & Graphics.

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Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    SaintJ said:
    Noaani said:

    I mean don't you want combat that looks and feels this good?

    I want combat that feels good, but in all honesty, if the rest of the game is as it should be, I don't care if I end up playing on graphics akin to Runescape Classic.

    The following is true for *me*.

    Enjoyable combat mechanics > logical gear progression > raid encounter design > economic stability > crafting depth > functioning open PvP system > group content design > lore presentation > node system > siege system > lore depth > customer support > in game sound effects > graphical fidelity > soundtrack > vanity items.

    That is obviously not how things fall for you, if it were this thread wouldn't exist. I just want to point out that there are a LOT of things that a LOT of other players consider more important than graphics - graphics will not be the make or break for this game.


    Not for a Old time mmorpg player as yourself, who has grown up with less then amazing graphics/combat.

    A younger generation is not as forgiving, I gave my younger brother of 16 my Guild Wars 2 account, and the first thing out of his mouth was "what are these graphics".
    If you want to keep a younger generation of gamers iinterested or attract them as new mmorpg players.
    The old time graphics/tab-target combat won't cut it.
    The new generation is used a higher quality aesthetic.

    I see both of your points.  Although half of my suggestion does revolve around Combat mechanics which you @Noaani rated as #1 most important.  And I agree the combat outweighs the graphics.  

    BUT.   @SaintJ kinda hit the nail on the head regarding my concern about graphics.  Younger generations are terribly critical/have high demands in this regard.  And seeing as AOC is not launching until 2020 there will be a larger youth demographic with money to spend on games by then and they will have higher graphical standards.

    While I Agree with you that combat mechanics is #1,  Graphics is definitely in the top 5 and it is important enough to the younger demographics to the point where it might be #2 or #3 on their list. 

    Now it's possible they could launch with lower fidelity graphics then have a "remastered" version come out with much higher graphic fidelity much like BDO did but I feel they should make improving the graphics a high priority in the near future or at the very least improving the quality of the slower, blockier, cartoonish or ESO esque style animations in favor of more realistic/stylish ones depicted in BDO's animations. 
  • SaintJ said:
    The new generation is used a higher quality aesthetic.
    Have you *seen* fortnite?

    It looks like it is from 2006.
  • SaintJ said:
    @Noaani

    I have heard of it, and that is the style they went for, it is seposed to look cartoon like. 
    They still have nice graphics for what the game is. It’s in a league of it’s own, there are exceptions. 

    A maplestory 2 will never compete with a black desert online, a Lost ark, or a Ashes of Creation. 
    No kid will choose a WoW over a ashes of creation or black desert unless his pc would not be able to run it. 

    And again im sure there are exception, but majorty of the younger generation, enjoys flashy graphics. 


    @SkullMonkey
    I think you need to let go the thought of Ashes of Creation having BDO’s remastered graphics. Black Desert will probably have the best mmorpg graphics for a lil time. There is a sense of eye to small details they have perfected that is their trademark. I don’t think any mmo will beat that anytime soon 😊 Ashes still looks graphicly amazing to me as it is now❤️
    I mean realistically I know it's probably not going to happen.  As It is the graphics are pretty good, slightly cartoonish in the way that ESO is but still much better.  I feel like it's somehwere between ESO and Black Desert.   That's a good place to START but a lot of the reason behind this post was to point out how important graphics have become and to hopefully get the devs to think about doing a graphic overhaul sometime in the first 3-5 years of the game's life.  I do feel they could tweak the combat animations a little bit more before launch tho.  That seems feasible but I get that getting the fidelity of BDO remastered is not realistic as they would most likely have to switch to a completely new graphics engine. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    SaintJ said:


    I have heard of it, and that is the style they went for, it is seposed to look cartoon like. 
    They still have nice graphics for what the game is. It’s in a league of it’s own, there are exceptions. 

    On top of Fortnite, we also have Overwatch and Minecraft. These three games represent three of the top five games over the last few years - most of that popularity is due to a younger audience.

    You mentioned WoW. It's a shit game with shit graphics, but it was popular well past any other MMO. Yet even when it was released it's graphics were considered years behind other games. EQ2 - that released in the same quarter - had graphics that far exceeded WoW's.

    My point is, cutting edge graphics are not a make or break factor in games. This is easily demonstrated simply by looking at these four games.

    There *are* people out there that look at graphics and little else in games. However, these gamers are the type of people that are always bouncing to the newest game (always in search of better graphics), and as such are not the type of gamer an MMO with long term aspirations should be focusing on attracting.

    Once again, still not saying that graphics are something that should be totally ignored over other aspects, just that there is a point of diminishing returns, past which any improvements are unnecessary.
  • SaintJ said:

    I'm pretty sure a Overwatch MMO would get played just as much as a Ashes of Creation or a BDO.

    I agree it would, and that is my point.

    The graphics of of games like Overwatch are a result of a deliberate decision by the developers to not focus on graphics as much as the average FPS game. Particle effects are lower quality, only basic lighting effects are used, solid colors are favored over textures.

    This results in a cartoony graphic style. Even if cartoon graphics aren't the aim, they are the only possible result of the above decisions.

    In every objectively measurable metric, Overwatch has lower quality graphics than most other AAA games of the last few years. You may like the graphic style, but that is subjective.

    Yet, even with this lack of focus on graphics, resulting in objectively poorer graphics, we both agree that an Overwatch MMO would sell.

    Not a shining example of why Ashes needs to focus excessively on graphics in order to be successful.
  • Noaani said:
    SaintJ said:

    I'm pretty sure a Overwatch MMO would get played just as much as a Ashes of Creation or a BDO.

    I agree it would, and that is my point.

    The graphics of of games like Overwatch are a result of a deliberate decision by the developers to not focus on graphics as much as the average FPS game. Particle effects are lower quality, only basic lighting effects are used, solid colors are favored over textures.

    This results in a cartoony graphic style. Even if cartoon graphics aren't the aim, they are the only possible result of the above decisions.

    In every objectively measurable metric, Overwatch has lower quality graphics than most other AAA games of the last few years. You may like the graphic style, but that is subjective.

    Yet, even with this lack of focus on graphics, resulting in objectively poorer graphics, we both agree that an Overwatch MMO would sell.

    Not a shining example of why Ashes needs to focus excessively on graphics in order to be successful.
    It’s graphics vs aesthetics again.
  • As long as the graphics are reasonably good and serviceable I'm way, way more interested in performance, balance, gameplay, lore, and immersion.

    Character animations should be fluid and not stiff.  I don't have to be able to see the weave pattern in cloth items.  The elves in LOTRO always ran like they had a corn cob stuck up their butt.
  • It's interesting you guys both bring up overwatch.  The more and more I watch the Alpha 1 combat trailer the more it feels like overwatch style combat.  Which is not a bad thing.   I think what keeps getting to me are a lot of the little things. (I used to be an animator so some of these thing really stand out to me more than most). 

    For instance there is often times what I like to call "shoulder lock"  where the person's shoulders are locked mostly in place yet the character's legs and sometimes their arms are moving in separate directions from their torso.  The biggest place I saw this was using the crossbow or the bow and running left or right while aiming.  The upper body/torso is as still as a statue while the legs and arms are moving all over in separate directions.  It looks very robotic as Humans literally can't move their body in this manner because unlike robots which can have separate swivel points for their limbs our musculature is all interwoven.  If you tried running or side stepping to the left or right it would completely affect the positioning of your upper body. You would lean in the direction you are moving while firing etc. 

    In Black Desert for instance if you are running to the left or right your whole body is moving and leaning to the left or right.  It looks and feels realistic and that is one of the aspects of black desert and modern AAA titles which has raised the bar as far as animation quality goes.

    I'll try to get a couple of screenshots to illustrate what I'm saying and drop it in here.


  • Graphics and Animations are cool and all but generally cause the most problems both in performance and hacks. So while i admit i love flashy spells and sparks flying off sword when they collide i much rather performance be the focus.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Kadin said:
    Graphics and Animations are cool and all but generally cause the most problems both in performance and hacks. So while i admit i love flashy spells and sparks flying off sword when they collide i much rather performance be the focus.
    I agree with what you are saying with regards to performance but the changes I am referring to would not affect performance significantly.  Its a matter of taking the time to make the animations realistic vs robotic.
    Crymoar said:
    As long as the graphics are reasonably good and serviceable I'm way, way more interested in performance, balance, gameplay, lore, and immersion.

    Character animations should be fluid and not stiff.  I don't have to be able to see the weave pattern in cloth items.  The elves in LOTRO always ran like they had a corn cob stuck up their butt.
    Again not talking about thread count lol. But more addressing the "corn cob up butt" syndrome you are referring to.  The stiffness you are referring to is due to the character's shoulders being locked in place to the center of the camera as well as having a "turret torso" where the player's character is un-naturally vertical at all times with their feet/legs moving in one direction while attacking in the complete opposite direction.  

    Here are some screenshots depicting the issue.

    If you look at the above picture the player is rapidly moving in one direction while power attacking in the opposite direction... just try and do this in real life you'll wrench your back out or fall over. 

    Shoulder lock is much harder to depict while not in motion.. 

    in the above shot the player is strafing fairly rapidly from side to side yet the camera is "locked" on the character's shoulders and of course he's so upright he looks like he has a rod up is bum. 

    BDO solved this by not trying to lock the camera on the character's shoulders but to rather create separate strafing attack and dodge animations. (which could also be modified)

    (appologies on the poor quality of the pics below had to pull them from a heavily compressed screen capture vid)

    Here is an example of The ranger's standard side moving attack: 
    Notice how her whole body is facing the direction of movement the animation.

    Here is a picture of a mage doing a side projectile attack:

    additionally here is an example of a side evade from the witch:



    Now for Melee here is an example of a side attack with a two handed sword. The warrior steps sideways with and swings with his hips using his entire body which is what you actually have to do IRL.  I'm sure you've all heard "swing from your hips" before when it comes to sports like baseball and boxing.


    Here is an example of a dual blade weilding class doing 3 different moves.  Side attack, Side dash, general sideways movement. 
    Side dash (she's doing a bit of a kick spin/barrel roll move to evade)

    Basic sideways movement.


    So here you see the animations being more realistic while a also stylish/high fantasy and being very fluid and functional at the same time.  While some of the feats the player's character pull off might be slightly unrealistic/fantasy they never look robotic or stiff. 

    Another excellent example of how combat like this can be done well is Horizon zero dawn... HZD still has over the shoulder combat with great bow aiming mechanics and dodge rolls very similar to what's in AOC already while not having the player's camera "shoulder locked" on a stiff robotic turret torso. 
  • Animation is King in my book.  If you want intense immersion, then realistic movement and 'character twitches' fills the bill.   Graphics can be less if animation is more. 


  • Animation is King in my book.  If you want intense immersion, then realistic movement and 'character twitches' fills the bill.   Graphics can be less if animation is more.  
    Yep.  Great Animation can carry bad graphics and great graphics can carry sub par animation.  And As BDO proves a game with amazing graphics and combat can carry a shallow MMO with an endless grind, 1 note lack luster end game, crappy lore/lackluster story and a P2W cash shop. 
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