Item Level or Gear Score

As the title suggests, what is everyone's thoughts on Item Level or Gear Score (same thing but name differs by game). I personally think it is an aspect of a game that usually cannot be ignored if you want to do the toughest content.

Depending on the game, there needs to be a way of identifying how strong another player is, so you don't waste your time with someone super under geared or under leveled. You might think it is elitism, but it really isn't 99% of the time. You are literally INCAPABLE of running certain content without certain levels of gear. You ever heard of a DPS check? Yes? If you don't have at least the bare minimum required gear, you can usually never clear the content.
(This is a paragraph that I revised from a previous post in a different thread, just an FYI)
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Comments

  • Gear level is a joke, carry someone and they get great gear.

    Doesn't mean anything, play with someone to find out if they can hold their own. Relying on an artificial number is bull.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    For hard content you need to be a member of a Constant Party CP or a guild.
    You know who they are and if they can clear the content.

    Dps/gear check was invented for instanced mmorpgs. Mind you the best players that do Worlds First Clears dont even know what dps or mechanics are involved.

    Dps/gear check is out right stupid for open world mmorpgs. It will only great problems for people that are missing a xLV sword, and problems for bellow good players that need to be carried by a full group of DPS check approved numbers.


    Why would you pug hard content?
    How did you manage to solo until that content by constantly spending all of your time inspecting people?

  • [moved post from other thread to this one]
    I think it will be okay not having a Gear Score... it was mentioned the developers and design is aiming for 'inclusion' over 'exclusion' when it comes to players helping each other in the world including combat... by allowing 'low levels' contribute and join forces with 'high level' players. A Gear Score would be in direct contrast to that vision.

  • Gear score in my experience can help but doesn’t hurt (outside of hollow claims of elitism).  It’s useful in PUGs to give you an idea of where the player is at.  Outside of PUGs (playing with friends and/or in a guild) where people know you, they won’t care about gear score so they can ignore it and it doesn’t hurt.

    The only way that I’ve ever seen gear score be harmful is when players get locked out of content that will improve their score because their score isn’t high enough, pretty much giving a glass ceiling.  But designers have to be pretty dumb to allow that situation to happen.  It’s very rare.

    There are also sometimes cases where gear is rated arbitrarily, and “better” gear (more appropriate for a playstyle, buffing stats that matter more for a particular build) is rated artificially low.  Again though, that’s a problem with implementation, not with the concept.  It works well if done right.

    For those who say that it’s no good, what do you propose in its place?  Saying “only play with people you know” is far more elitist and will exclude many more people than filtering out players based on gear.

    Maybe some kind of achievement system?  But that has its own pitfalls.  I’ve had people in WoW refuse to let me in their group if I’ve never done the content before.  Which is stupid; if I can’t join a group without doing the content already how can I ever do it?  Again, there are much more idiotic ways to judge players than gear score.
  • It just seems like having a gear score is just another way to break immersion just a little bit more. Yes it's a helpful tool to see how strong someone is but I think your level is a good enough indicator and anything past that just talk to the person. We don't need more labels in MMO's that keep people from joining guilds, parties, or raids because their number is too low.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Long text incoming. Personally I wont be affected by performance checks since Ill play with a seasoned group, but I support tge game by giving feedback. Please read.

    I am against dps/gear checks and I will try to explain why it only has negative consequenses without offering anything that is Needed.

    But first let me say that I am playing Eso a game heavily based on dps and I Pug it.
    If I see a low lv player in the group immidietly I vote kick or leave without dps check.
    Because I know that:
    He cant deal dmg
    He may not know the mechanics.
    His stats might be all over the place.
    He just queued from a damn bank in a City and popped up in a dungeon on the other side of the map.
    If he loots an item I need it will be low level because it ended up in his inventory.
    So gtfo, dont join veteran queues you selfish want to be carried like a princess oblivious to your groups needs noob.

    For harder content never have I been in a guild raid in which any member check on another member. That is because the guild would first devote time to make sure everyone has the gear they need for their role and beat the boss.
    So in my experience I never needed dps/check in a game that supposedly requires it.
    Did you know that in dps/check scenarios a class that 40k dps is exluded because the other class deals 50k dps? How stupid is that when 2 expansions ago no class could pull more than 30k dps.


    Now let's talk about AoC.
    Two things. Firstly AoC will not have separete PvP and PvE.
    My Fighter may wear gear that increases my stun resistance. The guy next to me has gear that increases DoT dmg. 
    Who do you think will be kick in a dps/gear check? 

    Secondly and more importantly AoC will be mostly open world which means that not only people will not have gear 100% focused on dps numbers rather a balance of stats in order to survive PvE and PvP but more importantly who is going to be dps/gear checked?
    Obviously since I am on the zone "Death Desert" I am high enough to be here. Otherwise you would see me running from a mob because it can kill me in 4 hits.
    I really doubt that a player that cannot kill mobs in this zone would walk all the way over here without fearing of losing his stupid low lv gear upon death, make it in front of you alive and ask you to group for xp. 

    Open world does not need dps/gear check. Hell even roles are not necessary to lv up from mobs. 
    If you need to tackle harder mobs deeper in the zone that means that you are farming for something. Why would you farm for a random guy? You would farm for your people. Your people are people you enjoy playing with. Do you dps/gear check them?
    Most likely you know their gear.


    Dps/gear checkers will only focus on getting people to quickly clear content instead of joining a community or helping people they encounter.

    People that are getting dps checked will blame the game instead of socializing, forming their own guild and improving together with other people.

    Again, no agenta here. I have my group and we will join a guild which will help us and we will help the other members.
    I am just worried that dps/gear check will take out a lot of social interaction and replace them with toxicity.




    PS since there will be some instanced content in an open world mmorpg you better bet that the mechanics will be extraordinary.
    Dont pug it, dont dps check and argue. Make friends, improve together and enter the dungeon as a strong team.
  • Personally I'd like gear more like Vanilla wow where what stats the gear has is far more key then the item level. In Vanilla wow some of the best gear items for some classes wasn't even max level (level 60) gear, it was mid 50's gear but had stats or abilities your specific class needed over the level 60 gear.
  • It would be better to have the gear not so difficult to get.
    Some people just want to be stronger than others with their gear because they know they can't beat them otherwise.
  • Greygoose said:
    Gear level is a joke, carry someone and they get great gear.

    Doesn't mean anything, play with someone to find out if they can hold their own. Relying on an artificial number is bull.
    LMAO
    It's always happy to see exploitable players. How about I join then for free gear, and then leave after I got it?

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Darthaden said:
    Personally I'd like gear more like Vanilla wow where what stats the gear has is far more key then the item level. In Vanilla wow some of the best gear items for some classes wasn't even max level (level 60) gear, it was mid 50's gear but had stats or abilities your specific class needed over the level 60 gear.
    That's dumb, and wasn't even on purpose, but was exploits caused by lack of design insight in the early days.

    Bink said:
    It just seems like having a gear score is just another way to break immersion just a little bit more. Yes it's a helpful tool to see how strong someone is but I think your level is a good enough indicator and anything past that just talk to the person. We don't need more labels in MMO's that keep people from joining guilds, parties, or raids because their number is too low.
    If you like to suck, raid finder is always open for you. It doesn't discriminate... just don't be surprised, if you can't do shit there...

  • I always loved the idea of a system where everyone was equally strong, but you had a lvl based on how many you killed, keeps you have taken, ships sunk etc etc. That would show your skill in PvP and not your skill in getting high end gear... just my 2 cents ;-) 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018

    (This is quite long be warned)


    Level vs. Gear Score being used to determine a players "effective" combat ability. 

    Even though you state they are inherently the same thing in other MMO's, I think they represent two different concepts that get convoluted with one another to establish a players "effective" combat ability at a glance. 

    Before we jump into their difference and my thoughts on their usage, let's first establish that we're talking about a game that hasn't been introduced to power creep. (I'm going to assume that everyone knows or has heard of power creep). Since there isn't any (brand new game), and it takes a bit of time before that starts to happen in an MMO we can negate such an argument about someone being power leveled or power creep affecting your judgement initially regarding "at a glance" effective combat ability (i.e Level & Gear Score). A level 10 trying to power level a level 5 to level 10 is effectively not an issue (assuming that the rate of xp needed to level up sufficiently is tiered appropriately). You're worry about power leveling a level 10 to level 50 is effectively moot until such a time as power creep and the games longevity are taken into consideration.  

    Now moving on, to me "Levels" indicate someones time sink and inherently their familiarity with that particular class/role that they're in. It is useful to let oneself and others know initially what the other players experience and familiarity are with their mechanics, skills, and role. A lvl 1 cleric doesn't have the same skills/mechanics/experience that a lvl 50 cleric does. Also if skills are gated by level they will obviously be a huge factor in your effectiveness in your particular class (a cleric that can't heal because they're not at a high enough level is lacking). This only helps me figure out their effective combat ability regarding PvE or Role awareness (again at a glance). It is a poor indicator of their PvP or Dungeons/Raid capability. 

    Gear score on the other hand is a much more immediate indicator of PvP or Dungeon/Raid capability. It gives a numerical indicator of how effective ones dps/defense/buffing/debuffing/healing/ect... are. If you need a weapon to be +15 before you're able to add an extra heal stat or use your buff at your level at it's full potential then those minute difference in points could be what lead to victory or defeat at the higher stages of MMOs.

    So in conclusion, Level = PvE or Role Awareness, Gear Score = PvP or Dungeon/Raid capability.

    Both are important as one progresses deeper and higher into a game. With either imbalanced your effective combat ability drops because you're not able to exert your maximum potential. 

    The issue with one out scaling the other in players doesn't became a conversation until the game has had some longevity and allowed power creep to crop up. At that time there isn't really a way to tell an effective combat ability since imbalances will appear with power leveling, and gear gifting. Then the actual weight of either Level or Gear Score drops, and one is lead to use DPS meters or experience (observation, timers on dungeons, ect...) to be able to tell what someones effective combat ability really is. 

    Now to get to the crux of the question, is using either or both of these indicators to "gate" other people from joining your guild/dungeon run/raid/ect... "fair" or "proper". Now I don't really want to dig into the moral ambiguity of not being friendly and allowing a under-geared or under-level player join you when you're trying to accomplish a task that takes a certain requirement of both (running a dungeon to its fullest, getting a certian speed/time through a dungeon, having an average effective combat amongest your comrades to compete in group PvP, ect..)

    I will simply say this. That MMOs inherently level & gear-score gate at all stages. It's one of, if not the main way, of how one measures progress in an MMO. Can you go to that next region over the hill, not yet not a high enough level...time goes on...congrats you're now high enough can you go over to that region and kill those things, not yet not a high enough gear score...time goes on...congrats now you're able to effectively kill those thing and then you progress. Rinse and repeat. 

    MMOs are built on the premise of if you can't do this thing now, keep working on getting stronger and sooner or later you will be able to. Can you really blame players for using that same premise as the MMO to gauge other players usefulness. MMOs is quite totalitarian when dealing with NPC enemies (dungeons/mobs/creatures/raids/ect...) why wouldn't players be the same with one another.

    Now that's my opinion, please feel free to tell me your thoughts. 


  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Superior gear is part of mmorpg process and game depth.
    I am 10 I can do with low gear.
    I am 25 I will buy better gear so that I can venture in dangerous zones.
    I am 40 I will travel the map in order to farm materials for my gear. I need better gear to keep defeating PvE and enemy players.

    I am pressent in a dangerous zone. I find it stupid that people need to gear check me.
    I didnt teleport there. This is not an instanced dungeon. I fought my way to this dangerous place of the map. Why do you need  to gear check me?

    This is an open world mmorpg. Not PvE or PvP. It is PvX. 
    My gear is for PvX. My gear offers stun resistance.
    How will you judge my DPS?
    Based on your gear that offers crit rate chance? You chose crit rate chance for PvX. That also makes your DPS higher than mine. 
    Why would we add gear/dps check in a PvX game?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Bink said:
    It just seems like having a gear score is just another way to break immersion just a little bit more. Yes it's a helpful tool to see how strong someone is but I think your level is a good enough indicator and anything past that just talk to the person. We don't need more labels in MMO's that keep people from joining guilds, parties, or raids because their number is too low.
    akmaa said:

    If you like to suck, raid finder is always open for you. It doesn't discriminate... just don't be surprised, if you can't do shit there...

    Well someone's a bucket of sunshine this morning.. Before you embrace your inner angst and express it by rubbing your flesh stubs over some buttons angrily, at least take some time to learn a little about the game.

    If you would be willing to lower yourself so, you might discover something, such as how this game is not planned to offer a dungeon/raid finder - at least, not in the standard sense. It will be based more on player interaction and cooperation, and so the point being made was that players would judge others numerically and exclude people solely on the fact that their numbers were too low. Although, I think regardless of whether or not some sort of Gear Score is implemented, this system will be a challenge for you in particular : p.
  • Greygoose said:
    Gear level is a joke, carry someone and they get great gear.
    TBH, my biggest worry would be an extension of this.

    It's not the best comparison but take Pokemon Go. To give an example (I haven't played Go for a while, but this is what I'm told by those who do), if you do a raid in Go with 5 people, 4 at level 35, 1 at level 27, then when it comes to catching the pokemon, the level 27 is favoured to get a much higher IV pokemon while the level 35's are given lower IV pokemon.

    Because of that, it creates real elitism. I started playing go again about 3 months ago (I played it for a week when it released, then stopped). I stopped about a month ago when I was told by players in my area that because I was only level 24, they wouldn't raid with me or even add me to a WhatsApp group until I was at least level 30, ideally level 35, purely because they didn't want me dragging their IV's down.

    Pokemon raids were marketed as a way to get people out and socialising to catch powerful pokemon, but what it actually did was create a two-tier system.

    I don't care if an L10 carries an L2, so long as they get the same gear. But if the L2 gets stronger gear at the expense of the L10, I'll be annoyed.
  • I played WoW from Vanilla to WotLK. I didn't raid much as I didn't have time. I recall once in WotLK joining my guild for one of the raids. I recall being about 10% lower in DPS then another warrior of the same spec out had about 50% higher gear score.

    Obviously I had the better understanding of the class, I was grossly outclassed in terms of gear but my DPS was marginally lower.

    In BC we had a core of 4 people for 10-man raids and could carry 6 fairly easily so I'm totally fine helping people gear up.

    GS helps create P2W, I recall guilds that advertised spots for cash in raids, people with enough cash could join a raid they had no business doing and then suddenly have top gear.

    I don't see this being an issue in AoC though so it doesn't really matter.
  • Gear should somewhat indicate skill.
    There will be no lvl boosts in this game and no gear to buy.
    So if I person has good gear, there should be no reason to think they cant do the raid.
    But in wow I hated when people would asked for a specific GS and even if you where a tiny bit below what they asked you literally had to beg sometimes.
  • My feelings is that there should not be level/gear scores in game.
    I would like to see the best gear/weapons in game player made!
  • hey @Guildart maybe try re-reading my post buddy, you are a bit misinformed.

    "As the title suggests, what is everyone's thoughts on Item Level or Gear Score (same thing but name differs by game)."

    Item Level
    Gear Score

    ARE both the same thing with a different name.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    I don't have a problem "wasting my time" with other players who are undergeared.
    I'd rather repeat the same dungeon many times trying to figure out how we can defeat it with what we have rather than force someone to create a build different than what they prefer to play.

    If it's mechanically impossible to defeat content with a subpar gearscore, the content should lock you out until you reach the minimum gearscore.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018

    Depending on the game, there needs to be a way of identifying how strong another player is, so you don't waste your time with someone super under geared or under leveled. You might think it is elitism, but it really isn't 99% of the time. You are literally INCAPABLE of running certain content without certain levels of gear. You ever heard of a DPS check? Yes? If you don't have at least the bare minimum required gear, you can usually never clear the content.
    You identify a other player by playing with him.
    Iam playing and raiding in mmos since more as 15years.
    I have seen players with super high end gear who sucked. And i have seen "medium" geared players who did a better job at healing / tanking and dpsing as those super high end geared players.  
    Getting this super gear is not a question of skill, its a question of having enough time to end up in a good raiding guild.
    Gear score is stupid elitism - you take the player with a score of 5000 over the player with a score of 4800. That way you will never see that the 5k player sucks and the 4.8k player know and plays his class perfectly.

    Its even bad for the player itself (or for the a good number of players). If he does have 2 items, one with a score of 500 and a other one with a score of 600 he will take the one with 600, even if the one with 500 will fit his needs and playstile better.


  • This dude has a good point! ^^
  • hey @Guildart maybe try re-reading my post buddy, you are a bit misinformed.

    "As the title suggests, what is everyone's thoughts on Item Level or Gear Score (same thing but name differs by game)."

    Item Level
    Gear Score

    ARE both the same thing with a different name.
    Hello @[email protected]

    Ah I see, my mistake. It was quite late (around 3-4AM) and I must have missed the first part "item", and just read it as Level and Gear Score. Please feel free to ignore my previous response then. 

  • No, just no. Players shouldnt be getting gear by what ilvl number it has, but by its statistic. It is very casual to just put ilvl to game
  • DaveMLG said:
    No, just no. Players shouldnt be getting gear by what ilvl number it has, but by its statistic. It is very casual to just put ilvl to game
    Honestly i very much prefer this way.

    Put endgame stats on every item just massively vary what stats they have. (box of chocolates style), and make base stats the main thing.

    the stats on items just help you with your specific build that you want that you have theory-crafted for.

    Spend all your time hunting for that one piece that just has a slightly better rolled set of stats.(in example each item piece will have the chance to have a total of say 35 extra points, will all of those points randomly assigned to each of say 15 different possible stats, with 4 different stat options per piece. so say a chest piece drops:

    15 str
    10 agi
    8 lifesteal
    2 dodge


    When say the next time the same chest piece drops you get

    10 str
    15 agi
    1 lifesteal
    9 dodge


    Allows min-maxing and optimal gear without making it so someone with BREASTPLATE OF THE GODS EXTREME MONSTER HUGE DONG EDITION doesn't have a any jump over someone wearing Iron Studded Brigandine.

    Make the main difference be cosmetic and rarity of the look.

    if said breastplate of the huge dong edition is a boss drop specifically give it say an extra 2 stat points(minimal increase) OR(better imo) some activate-able skill such as weak slow with a long cooldown or something that can provide a benefit to someone skilled enough to use it at the right time, but not big enough to make it gamebreaking.

    It gives people multiple reasons to go after actual content, unique look of gear as well as a BARELY noticeable difference in stats(so skill can still beat someone who is carried up)

    One of my biggest hopes for this game is that zergbuster groups of very skilled players will be able to hold a choke point against a mass of lesser skilled players.

    If that doesn't turn out and the game ends up being a huge zergbased game then well...I can either use my lifetime sub to do arenas or go play another game.

    Either way I REALLY want skill to be a part of this game. Archeage had complete morons who would just get geared as a darkrunner hit 2 buttons and it didn't matter how good you were if they had better gear.

    There were videos of koonkoon using his feet his character naked except for his OP bow to utterly dominate people. If this game turns out like that....then i have failed.
  • Timrum said:

    Depending on the game, there needs to be a way of identifying how strong another player is, so you don't waste your time with someone super under geared or under leveled. You might think it is elitism, but it really isn't 99% of the time. You are literally INCAPABLE of running certain content without certain levels of gear. You ever heard of a DPS check? Yes? If you don't have at least the bare minimum required gear, you can usually never clear the content.
    You identify a other player by playing with him.
    Iam playing and raiding in mmos since more as 15years.
    I have seen players with super high end gear who sucked. And i have seen "medium" geared players who did a better job at healing / tanking and dpsing as those super high end geared players.  
    Getting this super gear is not a question of skill, its a question of having enough time to end up in a good raiding guild.
    Gear score is stupid elitism - you take the player with a score of 5000 over the player with a score of 4800. That way you will never see that the 5k player sucks and the 4.8k player know and plays his class perfectly.

    Its even bad for the player itself (or for the a good number of players). If he does have 2 items, one with a score of 500 and a other one with a score of 600 he will take the one with 600, even if the one with 500 will fit his needs and playstile better. 
    If someone is decently geared they have a better chance of being successful than someone of equal skill with lesser gear.  That’s a fact whether you want to pretend otherwise or not.

    If I’m a longtime veteran of an MMO and I know every in-and-out of every fight, and I go into content horribly undergeared because I’m playing an alt that I haven’t geared up properly I’m going to fail.  Having principles about not being “elitist” isn’t going to change a game’s mechanics.  If you’ve really been gaming for 15 years you’d know that by now.

    Nobody’s going to turn down someone they know and trust because their gearscore is a tiny bit low, as you suggest in your absurd example.  Having the presence of a gear score doesn’t dictate player behavior.  It’s just more information to help you make an informed decision.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Atama said:

    Nobody’s going to turn down someone they know and trust because their gearscore is a tiny bit low, as you suggest in your absurd example.  Having the presence of a gear score doesn’t dictate player behavior.  It’s just more information to help you make an informed decision.
    True nobody is going to trust someone they know because their gearscore is low but I'm positive they will turn down people they don't know because of it. Gearscore is information but more often than not it's misleading and that's where it causes a problem. If we reduce players down to a gearscore it's just another way for people to not interact with you because it's too low or overestimated you because it's high. It cuts down on the social aspect of the game and turns into a grind to get the highest gearscore even if that gear doesn't fit your playstyle. Why do you need it? You're an mmo vet, Im sure your perfectly capable of checking to make sure someone is up to snuff without checking a number that doesn't even give you a good indication of the player.
  • Bink said:
    Atama said:

    Nobody’s going to turn down someone they know and trust because their gearscore is a tiny bit low, as you suggest in your absurd example.  Having the presence of a gear score doesn’t dictate player behavior.  It’s just more information to help you make an informed decision.
    True nobody is going to trust someone they know because their gearscore is low but I'm positive they will turn down people they don't know because of it. Gearscore is information but more often than not it's misleading and that's where it causes a problem. If we reduce players down to a gearscore it's just another way for people to not interact with you because it's too low or overestimated you because it's high. It cuts down on the social aspect of the game and turns into a grind to get the highest gearscore even if that gear doesn't fit your playstyle. Why do you need it? You're an mmo vet, Im sure your perfectly capable of checking to make sure someone is up to snuff without checking a number that doesn't even give you a good indication of the player.
    Well, in absence of a gear score I’d inspect their gear.  If they’re all in beginner quest greens or if they’re wearing completely inappropriate stuff (let’s say a fighter type wearing cloth giving bonus to spellcasting in an extreme example) I’d be wary if this was challenging content.  (If it wasn’t I wouldn’t care, as long as they don’t go AFK or go all Leeroy or otherwise get in the way it doesn’t matter.)  And I admit the cloth example shows how gearscore might be a problem, in that someone could wear high end gear with a high score that’s still garbage (for them to wear).  But WoW for one gets around this by having weighted scores that will increase or decrease based on whether the stats are optimal for your class and build, so it can be accounted for.

    It’s not the end-all, be-all, but let’s say you’re doing content that normally warrants a 1,500 score and a guy in 900 gear joins I’d at least know to check them out.
  • Pretty sure this is asked and answered with a No. There is no gear inspection so no need for GS or any other such nonsense.
    Personal opinion GS is a lazy way to pick or omit people. Rather then building a community and figuring out what peoples strengths and weaknesses are GS divides us. Give people a chance and build them up, Help them out and they WILL surprise you what they can do when helped to rise to the challenge. Will gear be important I hope so. Will some people fail with mechanics most likely.  Will GS sort who is who most defiantly not.
  • I would say no gear score or item level. Instead of those systems I would opt for good old fashioned test ones performance and situational awareness in a trial run. Someone wearing the best gear can still suck at playing their class or role.
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