I would say no gear score or item level. Instead of those systems I would opt for good old fashioned test ones performance and situational awareness in a trial run. Someone wearing the best gear can still suck at playing their class or role.
What I want you to do is go into RMHM on console Tera with a full team of people between 417 and 421 Item level semi-new people and let me know how you do.
When you give up, let me know, I will be here waiting.
i'm not really a fan of gear score plus the combat in this game leads me to believe that some amount of skill is involved and that it isn't all just the power of your gear that matters, guild wars 2 is a fairly good example of this. It would be cool to visually recognise if a player is well geared or not judging solely off the appearance of the gear on their character but i admit that is reaching :P
Gear score, item level or whatever other term one wants to use for it is little more than a simplified interpretation of the base stats which a certain item has. Bearing that in mind, for efficiency reasons, I like its presence. As a person who has often lead raids for years and years, it helps in quickly assessing what's available in the group.
For raids with a static? As progression in MMO's is often pretty linear a higher iLvL/GS/whatever makes it a free take for the primary class in the static if he or she wants it. If not, up for greed.
For non-static raids, a rapid assessment of iLvL/GS helps to identify those players with an iLvL/GS at such a level that they literally have to be braindead to still mess things up, which is alright, that's when my blocklist comes in to play soon enough. And for those who have a lower iLvL/GS to confirm with them whether they are familiar with the required tactics or not. If they are, still fine. If the MMO has combat logging mods, I quickly give a browse and if the results are fine, the player is certainly welcome despite gear. Most raids in MMO's are faceroll raids anyway, making it very well possible to clear undergeared if valid tactics are appreciated. If the iLvL/GS is artificially elevated by throwing in non-class gear, the person is out.
Can I survive without gear score or item level? Certainly, similarly as in the old days rather I'll just make the same assumptions based on the base stats once more. It's just that little more cumbersome, takes a little more time. And that's really the only difference. It's not as if prior to the gear score addon was popularized in WoW players weren't already judged based on gear primarily. After all, when dealing with PUGs gear truly is the only value you see. In MMO's where combat logging mods and online profiles for this are available, this helps. But without? It truly would be impossible to do any form of successful PUG raiding, something what many players often forget.
To all the "we won't carry an under-geard person" types I pose one question. How do you suggest people get geared? I'm assuming that you were never under-geared and hence have an answer to this.
But seriously. I have always played with the mentality that the challenge of helping people gear up is part and parcel of the process and part of the fun. I have been involved in speed run exercises and have never enjoyed it.
Gear checks and scores etc do not guarantee a true picture of whether a player will be a hindrance or a help. Even in WoWish games if you get a buffon who has just purchased a max level account with the best in slot in every slot in your group you will no doubt wipe. whereas a skilled player that knows the mechanics with average gear will at least know not to steal agro, leroy Jenkins or do any other potentially disastrous things and be far more of an asset than the previous player.
Intrepid have stated that altho having best in slot will be an advantage it won't be the same as WoW where it can literal make 100s of thousands of points of damage diference.
I remember a time when gear checks were based on how you looked.
then cosmetics became a thing so everyone looks the same.
So we got spreadsheets on gear and resulted in number flexing...I am not a fan.
I would like to see a way of player recognition done perhaps through the "achievement system" not character scanning. That way you are more likely to asses a player through ability and skill and not RNG and luck.
To all the "we won't carry an under-geard person" types I pose one question. How do you suggest people get geared? I'm assuming that you were never under-geared and hence have an answer to this.
But seriously. I have always played with the mentality that the challenge of helping people gear up is part and parcel of the process and part of the fun. I have been involved in speed run exercises and have never enjoyed it.
Gear checks and scores etc do not guarantee a true picture of whether a player will be a hindrance or a help. Even in WoWish games if you get a buffon who has just purchased a max level account with the best in slot in every slot in your group you will no doubt wipe. whereas a skilled player that knows the mechanics with average gear will at least know not to steal agro, leroy Jenkins or do any other potentially disastrous things and be far more of an asset than the previous player.
Intrepid have stated that altho having best in slot will be an advantage it won't be the same as WoW where it can literal make 100s of thousands of points of damage diference.
You seem to be misunderstanding something about this conversation dude lol. What I was originally referring to is along the lines of what Tera does with their gear system. Gear based on class so you can't have too bad of gear unless you intentionally reroll to weird stats. Also the item level system is fairly decent in terms of telling where someone sits if they are a random (FAIRLY DECENT . . . not saying it's amazing). If you want to heal RMHM which has a recommended item level of 422, but a skilled healer can enter and be fine at 400+. My guild and I however will only take those who we KNOW are skilled at it unless they are at least 422 (which is maxed Tier 10 gear attained from the lower dungeons) if they are healers. That specific rule ONLY applies to heals though. As for tank and DPS it is REQUIRED to be at least 422, unless we have a DPS at 427+ with their ambush weapon near or at max, so you don't get trapped on second boss which is a DPS check. You either kill the spider before the baby eats all the eggs or it becomes hell because you have to cheese the boss. We are not dealing with that crap anymore. If you cannot put in the effort to get the minimum gear, you are worthless.
Yes, we are a semi-hardcore guild (on XBOX Tera), so we are a bit stringent on the requirements, but it only takes about 20-30 hours of gametime from the second you make a new character, to when you are max Tier 10 gear as a new player (Experienced players can do it in less than 10 hours). This kind of Item level requirement helps weed out the useless kids who just want carried and don't want to work for their stuff. Dont want em, dont need em, get rid of em!
Yeah I say no on gs or item levels. I personally would rather go by work of mouth or experience it myself. I am personally not a fan of pugs anyways but some times you need to do it.
Level vs. Gear Score being used to determine a players "effective" combat ability.
Even though you state they are inherently the same thing in other MMO's, I think they represent two different concepts that get convoluted with one another to establish a players "effective" combat ability at a glance.
Before we jump into their difference and my thoughts on their usage, let's first establish that we're talking about a game that hasn't been introduced to power creep. (I'm going to assume that everyone knows or has heard of power creep). Since there isn't any (brand new game), and it takes a bit of time before that starts to happen in an MMO we can negate such an argument about someone being power leveled or power creep affecting your judgement initially regarding "at a glance" effective combat ability (i.e Level & Gear Score). A level 10 trying to power level a level 5 to level 10 is effectively not an issue (assuming that the rate of xp needed to level up sufficiently is tiered appropriately). You're worry about power leveling a level 10 to level 50 is effectively moot until such a time as power creep and the games longevity are taken into consideration.
Now moving on, to me "Levels" indicate someones time sink and inherently their familiarity with that particular class/role that they're in. It is useful to let oneself and others know initially what the other players experience and familiarity are with their mechanics, skills, and role. A lvl 1 cleric doesn't have the same skills/mechanics/experience that a lvl 50 cleric does. Also if skills are gated by level they will obviously be a huge factor in your effectiveness in your particular class (a cleric that can't heal because they're not at a high enough level is lacking). This only helps me figure out their effective combat ability regarding PvE or Role awareness (again at a glance). It is a poor indicator of their PvP or Dungeons/Raid capability.
Gear score on the other hand is a much more immediate indicator of PvP or Dungeon/Raid capability. It gives a numerical indicator of how effective ones dps/defense/buffing/debuffing/healing/ect... are. If you need a weapon to be +15 before you're able to add an extra heal stat or use your buff at your level at it's full potential then those minute difference in points could be what lead to victory or defeat at the higher stages of MMOs.
So in conclusion, Level = PvE or Role Awareness, Gear Score = PvP or Dungeon/Raid capability.
Both are important as one progresses deeper and higher into a game. With either imbalanced your effective combat ability drops because you're not able to exert your maximum potential.
The issue with one out scaling the other in players doesn't became a conversation until the game has had some longevity and allowed power creep to crop up. At that time there isn't really a way to tell an effective combat ability since imbalances will appear with power leveling, and gear gifting. Then the actual weight of either Level or Gear Score drops, and one is lead to use DPS meters or experience (observation, timers on dungeons, ect...) to be able to tell what someones effective combat ability really is.
Now to get to the crux of the question, is using either or both of these indicators to "gate" other people from joining your guild/dungeon run/raid/ect... "fair" or "proper". Now I don't really want to dig into the moral ambiguity of not being friendly and allowing a under-geared or under-level player join you when you're trying to accomplish a task that takes a certain requirement of both (running a dungeon to its fullest, getting a certian speed/time through a dungeon, having an average effective combat amongest your comrades to compete in group PvP, ect..)
I will simply say this. That MMOs inherently level & gear-score gate at all stages. It's one of, if not the main way, of how one measures progress in an MMO. Can you go to that next region over the hill, not yet not a high enough level...time goes on...congrats you're now high enough can you go over to that region and kill those things, not yet not a high enough gear score...time goes on...congrats now you're able to effectively kill those thing and then you progress. Rinse and repeat.
MMOs are built on the premise of if you can't do this thing now, keep working on getting stronger and sooner or later you will be able to. Can you really blame players for using that same premise as the MMO to gauge other players usefulness. MMOs is quite totalitarian when dealing with NPC enemies (dungeons/mobs/creatures/raids/ect...) why wouldn't players be the same with one another.
Now that's my opinion, please feel free to tell me your thoughts.
An excellent appraisal and conclusion of vertical progression....
Gear score, item level or whatever other term one wants to use for it is little more than a simplified interpretation of the base stats which a certain item has. Bearing that in mind, for efficiency reasons, I like its presence. As a person who has often lead raids for years and years, it helps in quickly assessing what's available in the group.
For raids with a static? As progression in MMO's is often pretty linear a higher iLvL/GS/whatever makes it a free take for the primary class in the static if he or she wants it. If not, up for greed.
For non-static raids, a rapid assessment of iLvL/GS helps to identify those players with an iLvL/GS at such a level that they literally have to be braindead to still mess things up, which is alright, that's when my blocklist comes in to play soon enough. And for those who have a lower iLvL/GS to confirm with them whether they are familiar with the required tactics or not. If they are, still fine. If the MMO has combat logging mods, I quickly give a browse and if the results are fine, the player is certainly welcome despite gear. Most raids in MMO's are faceroll raids anyway, making it very well possible to clear undergeared if valid tactics are appreciated. If the iLvL/GS is artificially elevated by throwing in non-class gear, the person is out.
Can I survive without gear score or item level? Certainly, similarly as in the old days rather I'll just make the same assumptions based on the base stats once more. It's just that little more cumbersome, takes a little more time. And that's really the only difference. It's not as if prior to the gear score addon was popularized in WoW players weren't already judged based on gear primarily. After all, when dealing with PUGs gear truly is the only value you see. In MMO's where combat logging mods and online profiles for this are available, this helps. But without? It truly would be impossible to do any form of successful PUG raiding, something what many players often forget.
Good luck getting familiar with tactics in which to prepare with AoC.
Good luck getting familiar with tactics in which to prepare with AoC.
Ultimately it'll be little different than in any other MMO. The devs can make claims on dynamic elements based on e.g. node progression, but A it's just a matter of time for these variables to be unraveled and B the impact of such variables has to be limited to prevent a balancing nightmare.
Good luck getting familiar with tactics in which to prepare with AoC.
Ultimately it'll be little different than in any other MMO. The devs can make claims on dynamic elements based on e.g. node progression, but A] it's just a matter of time for these variables to be unraveled and B] the impact of such variables has to be limited to prevent a balancing nightmare.
Good luck getting familiar with tactics in which to prepare with AoC.
Ultimately it will be no different from other MMO's. Yes, developers can make claims on how it will change from session to session based on variables such as node progression, however, it's just a matter of time for the impact of these variables to be clear to the player base. And secondly, the impact of such variables will have to be limited to prevent it from being a balancing nightmare.
I lean away from including gear scores because it's one mechanic that reflects whether combat is becoming pigeon-holed into only 2 dimensions: attack and defence.
To me, the best fights include smart use of utility abilities, positioning, and timing.
If gear score is used as the primary criteria for trying out an encounter, then it cheapens said encounter by ignoring other factors.
Also, similar to what@Dygz said, I'd rather experience the learning process by trial and error rather than be beholden to a gear score - because that's what that mechanic does to the player base.
Good luck getting familiar with tactics in which to prepare with AoC.
Ultimately it will be no different from other MMO's. Yes, developers can make claims on how it will change from session to session based on variables such as node progression, however, it's just a matter of time for the impact of these variables to be clear to the player base. And secondly, the impact of such variables will have to be limited to prevent it from being a balancing nightmare.
The AI is adaptive. You have no idea what they will bring to the table, how they adapt to player triggers, let alone environmental triggers.
Your confidence is impressive for someone who has no idea whats on the menu.
Good luck getting familiar with tactics in which to prepare with AoC.
Ultimately it will be no different from other MMO's. Yes, developers can make claims on how it will change from session to session based on variables such as node progression, however, it's just a matter of time for the impact of these variables to be clear to the player base. And secondly, the impact of such variables will have to be limited to prevent it from being a balancing nightmare.
The AI is adaptive. You have no idea what they will bring to the table, how they adapt to player triggers, let alone environmental triggers.
Your confidence is impressive for someone who has no idea whats on the menu.
As long as AI in video games remains nothing more than nested if-else statements, it'll be unraveled. That's not confidence, that's just history repeating itself.
My issue with gear score is that players inflate it. The gear score requirement for the same content gets higher and higher the more time passes. So if you skip a week of progression suddenly getting into a pug is nearly impossible.
Comments
When you give up, let me know, I will be here waiting.
I don't wanna be mean
For raids with a static? As progression in MMO's is often pretty linear a higher iLvL/GS/whatever makes it a free take for the primary class in the static if he or she wants it. If not, up for greed.
For non-static raids, a rapid assessment of iLvL/GS helps to identify those players with an iLvL/GS at such a level that they literally have to be braindead to still mess things up, which is alright, that's when my blocklist comes in to play soon enough. And for those who have a lower iLvL/GS to confirm with them whether they are familiar with the required tactics or not. If they are, still fine. If the MMO has combat logging mods, I quickly give a browse and if the results are fine, the player is certainly welcome despite gear. Most raids in MMO's are faceroll raids anyway, making it very well possible to clear undergeared if valid tactics are appreciated. If the iLvL/GS is artificially elevated by throwing in non-class gear, the person is out.
Can I survive without gear score or item level? Certainly, similarly as in the old days rather I'll just make the same assumptions based on the base stats once more. It's just that little more cumbersome, takes a little more time. And that's really the only difference. It's not as if prior to the gear score addon was popularized in WoW players weren't already judged based on gear primarily. After all, when dealing with PUGs gear truly is the only value you see. In MMO's where combat logging mods and online profiles for this are available, this helps. But without? It truly would be impossible to do any form of successful PUG raiding, something what many players often forget.
then cosmetics became a thing so everyone looks the same.
So we got spreadsheets on gear and resulted in number flexing...I am not a fan.
I would like to see a way of player recognition done perhaps through the "achievement system"
not character scanning. That way you are more likely to asses a player through ability and skill and not RNG and luck.
To me, the best fights include smart use of utility abilities, positioning, and timing.
If gear score is used as the primary criteria for trying out an encounter, then it cheapens said encounter by ignoring other factors.
Also, similar to what @Dygz said, I'd rather experience the learning process by trial and error rather than be beholden to a gear score - because that's what that mechanic does to the player base.
So if you skip a week of progression suddenly getting into a pug is nearly impossible.