Press Gangs

ArchivedUser

As long as games have non-consensual activities, I've always wished they go all out and add a general 'mesmerization' mechanic.  I would love to be able to create 'press gangs' of 'thralls' that would harvest for me....

The actual mechanic could be very simple, and very like PVP.  Players have a 'willpower' stat that decreases each time another player hits with a 'mesmerization ability'.  When your 'willpower' hits 0, you become a 'thrall' to whatever player landed the last hit.  Different 'mesmerization' abilities would be based on your level in harvesting, crafting, etc.  Gear bonuses and penalties would apply, as would normal combat rules (no logging out 'in combat', no teleporting, etc.).  Players would remain a 'thrall' until their 'willpower' regenerated to a certain level, at which point they can try to flee before being 'mesmerized' again...

EDIT:
P.S.
  I think it would be hilarious to watch a group of big burly armored fighters desperately trying to kill a bunch of frail, bespectacled herbalists before they are enthralled and forced to pick flowers!
 

ArchivedUser

It would be nothing but frustrating for the players under the "mesmerization". I could not see myself having fun watching my character be under control of some other player for a significant length of time. It would also bring a whole other layer of griefing. To completely subjugate someone's control over their own character is a big no in an RPG.
There are already tons of people who are up in arms about the fact that they can be attacked anywhere at anytime; I can't even imagine what the uproar would be like if someone could take control of your character and use it as a slave, even if it was only for a few minutes.

ArchivedUser

Hmm - sounds like the same arguments people have with open world pvp ...
If ones ok, why not the other ?

I mean, if you can interrupt me when I'm harvesting, the least you could do is help me make up lost time

ArchivedUser

There is no "jail" or similar mechanic planned. If you want thralls and open pvp, Conan Exiles is your game. Though even they removed the ability to knock out other players and drag them to your wheel of pain and lock them into it once they realized how unpopular that mechanic is. Any pvp game that has tried "jail" type actions against another player has failed miserably in its implementation. Sea of Thieves is the latest example of this.

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:

Hmm - sounds like the same arguments people have with open world pvp ...
If ones ok, why not the other ?

I mean, if you can interrupt me when I'm harvesting, the least you could do is help me make up lost time

The difference between open world pvp and the mechanic proposed in the OP is that the latter completely takes away control of a person's character from them for quite some time (assuming you actually want to make a train of slaves they would need to be under your control for a few minutes at least so you can acquire enough people to call it a train). In pvp the most you can do is CC someone for a few seconds and other than that the player remains in control of their character even if they feel "forced" into pvping.

ArchivedUser

So glad this is NOT something that will be in the game. 

ArchivedUser

When Star Wars Galaxies was in development people asked for there to be bounties that could be placed on players who break the law (like smugglers) and other players could track them down and capture them to collect bounties.

Then it was asked how fun it would be to be led around in cuffs, thrown in jail, frozen in carbonite, etc.  And it became clear that what was fun for the hunter would be miserable for the bounty.

That still applies.  This would be a dumb system to implement because nobody wants to lose the ability to play for any length of time.  It would be like getting banned temporarily because of the actions of another player.

And honestly, what sick individual wants to enjoy enslaving other players?  Do we really want to encourage that?  Does this game want that reputation?

ArchivedUser

I remember in early Dark Age of Camelot, in RvR one side had huge area stuns/mes that could lock down huge areas of attacking forces. As long as no one hit you, you could be locked in place unable to move for a minute; no immunity after, so instantly locked down again. It didn't take long for RvR to be reduced into which side could lock the other side down first... Though one realm seemed to have more of those abilities. Not sure how it was modified over the years since those days, but... loosing control of a character just isn't fun for any length of time. In video games or even in table top games like D&D...

ArchivedUser

I like how the argument seems to have been meant as a hyperbole. I also see some correlation between being killed as a green player and being mesmerized, as in both cases another player is forcing you to do something you were not planning on doing with your time.

However, having a mechanic that allows you to enslave other characters seems like a really good way to kill a game at launch.

ArchivedUser

Azathoth said:

I like how the argument seems to have been meant as a hyperbole. I also see some correlation between being killed as a green player and being mesmerized, as in both cases another player is forcing you to do something you were not planning on doing with your time.

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner...

This was mostly just meant to show how open world PVP can seem to players that don't like PVP. However, apparently its ok that PVP is only "fun for the hunter and miserable for the prey" because somehow PVP is 'special'.

Having to waste 5 minutes of my harvesting time whenever someone wanders by and wants to poke me with a stick is no more fun for me, then forcing a PVPer to harvest for 5 minutes would be for them....( I got a kick out of the 'sick person wanting to enslave other players' comment - they seemed not to realize that open world PVP does just that...)

I've got nothing against PVP pe se - give me caravans, contested zones, battlegrounds, areana's, sieges, duels or even old fashioned PVP servers. Just let me decide how I spend my gaming time....

ArchivedUser

To OP how would you feel if your were press ganged into the army to fight battels or aboard a ship for a Real Life day or more.

ArchivedUser

NaloWahine said:

To OP how would you feel if your were press ganged into the army to fight battels or aboard a ship for a Real Life day or more.

The same way I'd feel if I was 'press ganged' into PVP while trying to pick flowers ?

ArchivedUser

Just thinking about it makes me want to smash my computer...

ArchivedUser

AutumnLeaf said:

Just thinking about it makes me want to smash my computer...

So....a typical Day???  

ArchivedUser

Sintu said:

AutumnLeaf said:

Just thinking about it makes me want to smash my computer...

So....a typical Day???  

Nah, I consider myself a calm individual

ArchivedUser

I am not sure how RL made it into this conversation.
In RL I feel I would probably be more inclined to be randomly murdered on my way to work (PvP in this case) than I would want to be hitched up to a chain gang (Mesmerized). However, my family would probably find more solace in me being on a chain gang than murdered. Again, not sure why RL was mentioned.

As for the "...sick individual..." comment, I am pretty sure the OP was not suggesting to enslave any actual real person. I'm not sure how sick someone has to be to enslave real people, but as for enslaving fake people (Avatars, since as a player you could still do whatever you wanted outside the game) for 5 minutes I don't think someone would have to be "sick," frustrated maybe...

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:

Azathoth said:

I like how the argument seems to have been meant as a hyperbole. I also see some correlation between being killed as a green player and being mesmerized, as in both cases another player is forcing you to do something you were not planning on doing with your time.

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner...

This was mostly just meant to show how open world PVP can seem to players that don't like PVP. However, apparently its ok that PVP is only "fun for the hunter and miserable for the prey" because somehow PVP is 'special'.

Having to waste 5 minutes of my harvesting time whenever someone wanders by and wants to poke me with a stick is no more fun for me, then forcing a PVPer to harvest for 5 minutes would be for them....( I got a kick out of the 'sick person wanting to enslave other players' comment - they seemed not to realize that open world PVP does just that...)

I've got nothing against PVP pe se - give me caravans, contested zones, battlegrounds, areana's, sieges, duels or even old fashioned PVP servers. Just let me decide how I spend my gaming time....

I can see the argument you are trying to make, but these two things are not equivalent. When someone is harassing you, you still have choices as both a player and a character. You can walk away, try and kill him, or let him/her be a jerk off and just continue what you are doing. If you are "enslaved" you have little to no options as a character and your only options as a player is to afk until the enslavement period is done or sit and watch as they make your character do things. Again, the difference is that you can still have control over yourself in pvp. It may not be any more fun of a situation to you, but they are definitely not equivalent circumstances. 
If simply being "forced" to do something you didn't want to do is your whole argument or point, then I am sorry; If you are playing an online game with other people, eventually you are going to have to do something that you do not want to do. That is what happens when you play with other people. That is what happens every day in real life too because everyone has there own agenda and interacting with someone else will cause your agendas to clash and someone or both people will have to adapt and will end up doing something they didn't plan on.

ArchivedUser

This is a hard no.

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

I can see the argument you are trying to make, but these two things are not equivalent. When someone is harassing you, you still have choices as both a player and a character. You can walk away, try and kill him, or let him/her be a jerk off and just continue what you are doing. If you are "enslaved" you have little to no options as a character and your only options as a player is to afk until the enslavement period is done or sit and watch as they make your character do things. Again, the difference is that you can still have control over yourself in pvp. It may not be any more fun of a situation to you, but they are definitely not equivalent circumstances. 
If simply being "forced" to do something you didn't want to do is your whole argument or point, then I am sorry; If you are playing an online game with other people, eventually you are going to have to do something that you do not want to do. That is what happens when you play with other people. That is what happens every day in real life too because everyone has there own agenda and interacting with someone else will cause your agendas to clash and someone or both people will have to adapt and will end up doing something they didn't plan on.

No, in non-consensual PVP you don't have 'control of your character' - if I had control, he'd still be picking flowers.  What you have is 'control' of what combat buttons to mash, just like you'd have control of you 'thrall' to harvest (eg harvesting a node may give your willpower a boost, allowing you to escape faster).

But the basic point stands - being forced to do something sucks.  Whether your forced to fight, flee, or harvest - if its not how you wanted to spend your gaming time, someone else shouldn't be able to 'force' you into it.

The whole 'PVP is different' argument can sound pretty hollow to people that don't like PVP.  Either way, someone is interrupting an activity that you wanted to do and making you do something you (possibly) didn't want to do.  Put another way, you can interrupt my fun to make me do something you want to do, shouldn't I be able to interrupt your fun to do something I want to do?  I know when stated that way, it seems obvious that neither party should be able to 'force' the other, but PVPers seem to forget/overlook that openworld PVP can appear to be exactly that to some players.

EDIT:
P.S. - I honestly can't think of anything other then open world PVP another player can force you to do ?  Play an alt during a raid ? you can choose not to go on the raid.. Pay dues to a guild ? you can choose not to be in the guild.  I'm honestly curious what other 'forced' actions you can think of ?

ArchivedUser

Why are you still kicking this around? Almost one of the earliest quotes we have from the Sandal God says nope, not gonna happen.

ArchivedUser

The point is that social interaction facilitates doing things you did not expect. You cannot play a social game and honestly expect to only do things you planned on doing. It does not matter how "hollow" you think this argument "sounds". I am not arguing feelings or subjectiveness. You do not even have to go off this website to find out that this game is not being designed to allow you to always be able to do only what you want. You will be forced to do things you did not plan to do. The game is being designed for it; not only through it being an online social game but also through its systems like pve events (could remove services from your node if not defended), sieges (could delevel your node causing less housing and services, if not defended), monster coin events (same as other events), weather changes (closes off pathways and content), the caravan system (node doesn't  receive the goods it needs  and so begins to decay or become economically disadvantaged). All of those will require you to react in some way and no matter how you react it will affect your gameplay in some way. If you do not participate, which is an option, you face the consequences (no longer having access to a home or service provided by a node, losing goods, etc.). In the same way, you can choose not to participate in pvp by not fighting back and you face the consequences of the death penalty and respawning. Of course this has a more direct effect on you than the other things in the game, but the same principle is at play: you will be forced to make decisions to participate in things you did not plan on doing and no matter your decision it will affect your gameplay in some way.

ArchivedUser

 If you take away open world pvp the economy will crash and burn. Don't you want it to be exciting and dangerous when you go out harvesting? I plan to do a ton of crafting in this game and the pvp aspect of this game gives me hope! I think it will make crafting and gathering worth something and create competition and danger. Crafting and gathering with no risk makes it feel unfulfilling, at least to me, and turns it in to a flooded system like wow. Corruption keeps the gankers in check and makes it so you either have to fight over a gatherable resource or give the resource up because you don't want to fight. Nobody is forcing you to do pvp, it's your choice. Yes someone can attack you but if you don't flag up they get a huge penalty and all you lose is a little time and running. I understand that you want to be able to decide what to do with your game time but I don't think they are gonna change their open world pvp idea. 

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

The point is that social interaction facilitates doing things you did not expect. You cannot play a social game and honestly expect to only do things you planned on doing. It does not matter how "hollow" you think this argument "sounds". I am not arguing feelings or subjectiveness. You do not even have to go off this website to find out that this game is not being designed to allow you to always be able to do only what you want. You will be forced to do things you did not plan to do. The game is being designed for it; not only through it being an online social game but also through its systems like pve events (could remove services from your node if not defended), sieges (could delevel your node causing less housing and services, if not defended), monster coin events (same as other events), weather changes (closes off pathways and content), the caravan system (node doesn't  receive the goods it needs  and so begins to decay or become economically disadvantaged). All of those will require you to react in some way and no matter how you react it will affect your gameplay in some way. If you do not participate, which is an option, you face the consequences (no longer having access to a home or service provided by a node, losing goods, etc.). In the same way, you can choose not to participate in pvp by not fighting back and you face the consequences of the death penalty and respawning. Of course this has a more direct effect on you than the other things in the game, but the same principle is at play: you will be forced to make decisions to participate in things you did not plan on doing and no matter your decision it will affect your gameplay in some way.

   Actually, you ARE arguing 'feelings and subjectiveness' - all the things you mentioned have subjective values as to risk/rewards - things you consider important, might not matter in the least to someone else.  For instance, I've already wondered about letting nodes get de-leveled as a way to go 'back' and see content that was missed the first time thru ?  Also many of them have multiple ways to 'help', for example, I could simply craft weapons to help defend a siege, and replace gear that lost durability or broke, for example.

  Also, for some, a 'social' game means playing and interacting with their friends and guildmates, not having to deal with potentially every person that wanders thru the area.
I typically turn off 'zone' or 'general' chat for this reason.  I have little interest in most of the gossip.  However, I use guild and party chat extensively to chat with friends.

  I expect there to be consequences to choosing to do/not do certain things.  For example, if I choose not to pvp, I expect not to get PVP achievements.  Or I lose access to mats from contested world bosses, or rare nodes.  Point is, some people want to CHOOSE those things themselves, not have the choice made for them.

What I find really fascinating though, is the extent people will go to, to 'justify' openworld PVP.  Generally, these things get resolved in a 'play how you want' manner.  For instance, RP'ers don't generally demand everyone RP (unless your on a RP only server), crafters dont generally demand you craft (heh - actually, don't craft! then I can charge more!).  But for some reason PVP is 'special'.  Its interesting.

ArchivedUser

Bink said:

 If you take away open world pvp the economy will crash and burn. Don't you want it to be exciting and dangerous when you go out harvesting? I plan to do a ton of crafting in this game and the pvp aspect of this game gives me hope! I think it will make crafting and gathering worth something and create competition and danger. Crafting and gathering with no risk makes it feel unfulfilling, at least to me, and turns it in to a flooded system like wow. Corruption keeps the gankers in check and makes it so you either have to fight over a gatherable resource or give the resource up because you don't want to fight. Nobody is forcing you to do pvp, it's your choice. Yes someone can attack you but if you don't flag up they get a huge penalty and all you lose is a little time and running. I understand that you want to be able to decide what to do with your game time but I don't think they are gonna change their open world pvp idea. 

 I actually think the crafting systems are more to blame for that than anything else.  Games that let you craft AND adventure on the same toon get flooded because people hit max level and the just level crafting for something to do.  I think leveling crafting should involved trade offs against your other stats.  No one character should be able to master everything - not combat, and not crafting or harvesting.

As for 'excitement' - sometimes I want to go harvest in dangerous areas for special mats or whatever.  Other times, I just want to grind out some basic mats for my dailies.  Sometimes I just want to fish and relax.  Personally, I'm not a fan of looking over my shoulder all the time.  But, to each his own.

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said: 

 I actually think the crafting systems are more to blame for that than anything else.  Games that let you craft AND adventure on the same toon get flooded because people hit max level and the just level crafting for something to do.  I think leveling crafting should involved trade offs against your other stats.  No one character should be able to master everything - not combat, and not crafting or harvesting.

As for 'excitement' - sometimes I want to go harvest in dangerous areas for special mats or whatever.  Other times, I just want to grind out some basic mats for my dailies.  Sometimes I just want to fish and relax.  Personally, I'm not a fan of looking over my shoulder all the time.  But, to each his own.

You make some good points! I actually think crafting should take up talent slots instead! 

I can see how pvp would make casual crafting and gathering a lot more stressful but I imagine some of lower level areas arent as hotly contested. I just don't think you can have a healthy economy without open world pvp. I do agree that they need to iron the hell out of this before launch or it's going to be a bloodbath that no casual wants to play and that would be sad! I trust IS to figure it out though!

ArchivedUser

Bink said:

You make some good points! I actually think crafting should take up talent slots instead! 

I can see how pvp would make casual crafting and gathering a lot more stressful but I imagine some of lower level areas arent as hotly contested. I just don't think you can have a healthy economy without open world pvp. I do agree that they need to iron the hell out of this before launch or it's going to be a bloodbath that no casual wants to play and that would be sad! I trust IS to figure it out though!

   Yeah, I'd love to see the decision to be a crafter have real impact on your character's skills and advancement. 

  I also LOVE the caravan idea.  I'm looking forward to NPC guarding most crap, but going in person when I have an extra special delivery to make!!  I loved running packs in ArcheAge for the same reason...  Get a big guild ship full of packs, and its all hands on deck to defend it!

ArchivedUser

I like the way you think sir! I love a community where we can disagree with some of the things about the game but we can discuss it rationally. I think we may have gotten a bit far off the OP though XD I often get off topic and start rambling about crafting! 

ArchivedUser

Bink said:

 I often get off topic and start rambling about crafting! 

   I started a crafting thread, if you feel like rambling some more
  Exploring/Crafting/Harvesting are my favorite things in MMOS!

  My girlfriend loves farming/husbandry - she's really hoping you'll be
able to breed mounts and stuff...

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:

Zastro said:

The point is that social interaction facilitates doing things you did not expect. You cannot play a social game and honestly expect to only do things you planned on doing. It does not matter how "hollow" you think this argument "sounds". I am not arguing feelings or subjectiveness. You do not even have to go off this website to find out that this game is not being designed to allow you to always be able to do only what you want. You will be forced to do things you did not plan to do. The game is being designed for it; not only through it being an online social game but also through its systems like pve events (could remove services from your node if not defended), sieges (could delevel your node causing less housing and services, if not defended), monster coin events (same as other events), weather changes (closes off pathways and content), the caravan system (node doesn't  receive the goods it needs  and so begins to decay or become economically disadvantaged). All of those will require you to react in some way and no matter how you react it will affect your gameplay in some way. If you do not participate, which is an option, you face the consequences (no longer having access to a home or service provided by a node, losing goods, etc.). In the same way, you can choose not to participate in pvp by not fighting back and you face the consequences of the death penalty and respawning. Of course this has a more direct effect on you than the other things in the game, but the same principle is at play: you will be forced to make decisions to participate in things you did not plan on doing and no matter your decision it will affect your gameplay in some way.

   Actually, you ARE arguing 'feelings and subjectiveness' - all the things you mentioned have subjective values as to risk/rewards - things you consider important, might not matter in the least to someone else.  For instance, I've already wondered about letting nodes get de-leveled as a way to go 'back' and see content that was missed the first time thru ?  Also many of them have multiple ways to 'help', for example, I could simply craft weapons to help defend a siege, and replace gear that lost durability or broke, for example.

  Also, for some, a 'social' game means playing and interacting with their friends and guildmates, not having to deal with potentially every person that wanders thru the area.
I typically turn off 'zone' or 'general' chat for this reason.  I have little interest in most of the gossip.  However, I use guild and party chat extensively to chat with friends.

  I expect there to be consequences to choosing to do/not do certain things.  For example, if I choose not to pvp, I expect not to get PVP achievements.  Or I lose access to mats from contested world bosses, or rare nodes.  Point is, some people want to CHOOSE those things themselves, not have the choice made for them.

What I find really fascinating though, is the extent people will go to, to 'justify' openworld PVP.  Generally, these things get resolved in a 'play how you want' manner.  For instance, RP'ers don't generally demand everyone RP (unless your on a RP only server), crafters dont generally demand you craft (heh - actually, don't craft! then I can charge more!).  But for some reason PVP is 'special'.  Its interesting.

Everything I said is factual to the game, not based on feelingsome about it. I never said those things were important to anyone, I only said they would affect your gameplay. Whether they are important to you or anyone else is irrelevant. It seems you keep missing the point I am making. It does not matter what you or anyone else wants, things will happen to you that do not fit into your plan, so you can either choose to complain or adapt and roll with the punches.
And no, you cannot always choose who you interact with. That is not how social or online games work, especially not Massively Multiplayer Online Games. You will be forced to interact with a wide assortment of people, most of which will be people you have never met before because there will be up to ten thousand people on your server.

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

Everything I said is factual, not based on feeling. I never said those things were important to anyone, I only said they would affect your gameplay.

Again, claiming something is a fact doesn't make it so... those things may not impact my gameplay at all. A node being develed might not impact me at all if I'm not using the services a particular level provides. Missing out on a monster coin probably won't impact me at all. Your assuming everyone requires the same things, and that something that impacts one, will impact all. So these are subjective, not facts. In my particular case, I play to waste time, not 'win'. So I'm very unlikely to be 'affected' by any of it.

Zastro said:

And no, you cannot always choose who you interact with. That is not how social or online games work, especially not Massively Multiplayer Online Games. You will be forced to interact with a wide assortment of people, most of which will be people you have never met before because there will be up to ten thousand people on your server.

   Um - No..thats what /ignore is for.  You'r eNEVER forced to interact with ANYONE in any MMO, and unless you can provide an example otherwise, I wish you'd stop trying to push your views as 'facts' - you can quit guilds, you can leave parties, and you can /ignore players.  Your not FORCED to deal with anyone.  For you particular goals, you may have to deal with people you would prefer not to, but that does NOT mean the rest of us are.

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:

Zastro said:

Everything I said is factual, not based on feeling. I never said those things were important to anyone, I only said they would affect your gameplay.

Again, claiming something is a fact doesn't make it so... those things may not impact my gameplay at all. A node being develed might not impact me at all if I'm not using the services a particular level provides. Missing out on a monster coin probably won't impact me at all. Your assuming everyone requires the same things, and that something that impacts one, will impact all. So these are subjective, not facts. In my particular case, I play to waste time, not 'win'. So I'm very unlikely to be 'affected' by any of it.

Zastro said:

And no, you cannot always choose who you interact with. That is not how social or online games work, especially not Massively Multiplayer Online Games. You will be forced to interact with a wide assortment of people, most of which will be people you have never met before because there will be up to ten thousand people on your server.

   Um - No..thats what /ignore is for.  You'r eNEVER forced to interact with ANYONE in any MMO, and unless you can provide an example otherwise, I wish you'd stop trying to push your views as 'facts' - you can quit guilds, you can leave parties, and you can /ignore players.  Your not FORCED to deal with anyone.  For you particular goals, you may have to deal with people you would prefer not to, but that does NOT mean the rest of us are.

I can think of one forced interaction and that would be open world PvP.