Press Gangs

ArchivedUser

Sintu said:

I can think of one forced interaction and that would be open world PvP. 

   LOL - and now we come full circle

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:

Sintu said:

I can think of one forced interaction and that would be open world PvP. 

   LOL - and now we come full circle

Still though. I agree with the open world PvP because I knew ahead of time that’s what AoC would have, just not the mesmerized idea you were putting out there. 

ArchivedUser

Sintu said:

Still though. I agree with the open world PvP because I knew ahead of time that’s what AoC would have, just not the mesmerized idea you were putting out there. 

   Yeah - that was mostly tongue-in-cheek  to show how openworld pvp can appear to some players.

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:

Zastro said:

Everything I said is factual, not based on feeling. I never said those things were important to anyone, I only said they would affect your gameplay.

Again, claiming something is a fact doesn't make it so... those things may not impact my gameplay at all. A node being develed might not impact me at all if I'm not using the services a particular level provides. Missing out on a monster coin probably won't impact me at all. Your assuming everyone requires the same things, and that something that impacts one, will impact all. So these are subjective, not facts. In my particular case, I play to waste time, not 'win'. So I'm very unlikely to be 'affected' by any of it.

Zastro said:

And no, you cannot always choose who you interact with. That is not how social or online games work, especially not Massively Multiplayer Online Games. You will be forced to interact with a wide assortment of people, most of which will be people you have never met before because there will be up to ten thousand people on your server.

   Um - No..thats what /ignore is for.  You'r eNEVER forced to interact with ANYONE in any MMO, and unless you can provide an example otherwise, I wish you'd stop trying to push your views as 'facts' - you can quit guilds, you can leave parties, and you can /ignore players.  Your not FORCED to deal with anyone.  For you particular goals, you may have to deal with people you would prefer not to, but that does NOT mean the rest of us are.

It is not a baseless claim; everything I have said can be backed up by things Intrepid have said. And I have not made the assumption that everyone requires the same thing. Whether you use the service or not, the option is there for you and other players and if other people use it, it affects you, albeit indirectly. For example, marketplaces are a service provided by a node that the government (ran by players) decides exists or not. You can choose not to use a marketplace, but the marketplace will still affect the economy which affects the node which affects the surrounding nodes which affects the entire population that buys, sells, transfers materials, gathers, crafts, raids, does dungeons, or pvps within those nodes. Intrepid have designed the game so that every system is interconnected and they all affect each other. It does not matter which part of the game you dedicate your time to, the other systems, and by proxy the changes that occur within those systems, will affect the thing you are doing and therefore you.

Most of those events I listed will affect the world at large, and if it affects the world, it affects you because you are playing in the world.

It was nothing to do with winning and I never said it did, so I am not sure why you stated that last bit. 

They are not "[my] views" per se, but simply an explanation of how living and playing with others is almost always unpredictable. Like Shinto said, PVP is a great example of forced interaction. Another example would be the economy. You can control your customers but you cannot control your competitors. People questing or gathering in the same area as you are affecting your gameplay by slowing you down (or speeding you up depending on how tagging mobs works). The only way to know you don't want to deal with a particular person is to have first interacted with them or heard their reputation. You could absolutely just /ignore everyone you see, but there are a lot more ways of communicating and interacting than typing or voice chat. And the simple action of /ignore means that other people have impacted you and affect you. If they didn't, you would not have taken that action.

ArchivedUser

Maybe just special rp interactions so you can have fun with it consensually? 

I meannnnn... I'm sure there are people who might find that fuuuun~~

*whipcrack*

ArchivedUser

Now we are back on the OP topic! Well done @Valentines !

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:

Azathoth said:

I like how the argument seems to have been meant as a hyperbole. I also see some correlation between being killed as a green player and being mesmerized, as in both cases another player is forcing you to do something you were not planning on doing with your time.

Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner...

This was mostly just meant to show how open world PVP can seem to players that don't like PVP. However, apparently its ok that PVP is only "fun for the hunter and miserable for the prey" because somehow PVP is 'special'.

Having to waste 5 minutes of my harvesting time whenever someone wanders by and wants to poke me with a stick is no more fun for me, then forcing a PVPer to harvest for 5 minutes would be for them....( I got a kick out of the 'sick person wanting to enslave other players' comment - they seemed not to realize that open world PVP does just that...)

I can't help if some players are dumb enough to think that your scenario might resemble open world PvP as proposed in AoC.  They must be the same people who keep endlessly bringing up the threads complaining about it.  I feel bad for them.

Your scenario involves a player losing control of their character for some unspecified length of time (it's implied that it takes a long time based on the "forced to pick flowers" comment).  As opposed to dying, respawning somewhere, and losing a bit of raw resources which is what happens in AoC.  Not to mention, if you are a non-combatant who doesn't want to PvP and you choose not to fight back, there are serious consequences for the person who griefs you.  Your scenario lacks any of that.

I don't think you have a very good grasp of what is being proposed for AoC, but you can read up on it: https://aocwiki.net/PvP#Open_World

Try reading about it, then come back and have a more informed opinion.

ArchivedUser

Atama said:

I don't think you have a very good grasp of what is being proposed for AoC, but you can read up on it: https://aocwiki.net/PvP#Open_World

Try reading about it, then come back and have a more informed opinion.

Ok - read the links... serious question - whats to stop corrupt players form just putting their 'good' gear in the bank, go someplace close to a friend, and let the kill you repeatedly until corruption is gone ?  The exp penalty isn't really a deterrent for max level characters?  Since there's no de-leveling, it seems like it would only be a meaninful deterrent for the first few months (tops) ??

ArchivedUser

Oh snap that's a good point! I think corruption should extend beyond death. Death shouldn't reduce corruption because your right it can be cheesed.

ArchivedUser

Bink said:

Oh snap that's a good point! I think corruption should extend beyond death. Death shouldn't reduce corruption because your right it can be cheesed.

   It would be more effective if it deleveled to make the exp debt meaningful...

  BTW, I can't take credit for the cheese - I used to play Darkfall which used similiar tactics a lot ( darkfall was pure ow full loot pvp)

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:

Atama said:

I don't think you have a very good grasp of what is being proposed for AoC, but you can read up on it: https://aocwiki.net/PvP#Open_World

Try reading about it, then come back and have a more informed opinion.

Ok - read the links... serious question - whats to stop corrupt players form just putting their 'good' gear in the bank, go someplace close to a friend, and let the kill you repeatedly until corruption is gone ?  The exp penalty isn't really a deterrent for max level characters?  Since there's no de-leveling, it seems like it would only be a meaninful deterrent for the first few months (tops) ??

That’s a good question.  But I assume it won’t be that easy.  Intrepid really wants the penalty to stick, and Steve said they’ll work hard to make sure it does.  So I don’t think that will work, or if it does they’ll make adjustments to be sure it won’t work.  They’ve repeatedly stated that they want corruption to be a big deal and that griefers are going to have a really rough time of it.

I too am not the biggest fan of open world PvP and every time I’ve experienced it, it sucks.  I’m hopeful, not just hopeful but confident, that the efforts they’ve put in place to reign it in will make it so it’s not just a gankfest where you are terrified to go anywhere and the game is dominated by roving packs of losers who only have fun when they feel like they’re ruining others’ fun.

ArchivedUser

Atama said:

That’s a good question.  But I assume it won’t be that easy.  Intrepid really wants the penalty to stick, and Steve said they’ll work hard to make sure it does.  So I don’t think that will work, or if it does they’ll make adjustments to be sure it won’t work.  They’ve repeatedly stated that they want corruption to be a big deal and that griefers are going to have a really rough time of it.

I too am not the biggest fan of open world PvP and every time I’ve experienced it, it sucks.  I’m hopeful, not just hopeful but confident, that the efforts they’ve put in place to reign it in will make it so it’s not just a gankfest where you are terrified to go anywhere and the game is dominated by roving packs of losers who only have fun when they feel like they’re ruining others’ fun.

   eh - hopefully they will.  Its a tough balancing act to do.  I think the caravan pvp will be awesome though.  I'm actually looking forward to that.

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:

Atama said:

That’s a good question.  But I assume it won’t be that easy.  Intrepid really wants the penalty to stick, and Steve said they’ll work hard to make sure it does.  So I don’t think that will work, or if it does they’ll make adjustments to be sure it won’t work.  They’ve repeatedly stated that they want corruption to be a big deal and that griefers are going to have a really rough time of it.

I too am not the biggest fan of open world PvP and every time I’ve experienced it, it sucks.  I’m hopeful, not just hopeful but confident, that the efforts they’ve put in place to reign it in will make it so it’s not just a gankfest where you are terrified to go anywhere and the game is dominated by roving packs of losers who only have fun when they feel like they’re ruining others’ fun.

   eh - hopefully they will.  Its a tough balancing act to do.  I think the caravan pvp will be awesome though.  I'm actually looking forward to that.

Me too.  And sieges.  That kind of PvP, with a purpose, is the kind I like.

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:

Atama said:

I don't think you have a very good grasp of what is being proposed for AoC, but you can read up on it: https://aocwiki.net/PvP#Open_World

Try reading about it, then come back and have a more informed opinion.

Ok - read the links... serious question - whats to stop corrupt players form just putting their 'good' gear in the bank, go someplace close to a friend, and let the kill you repeatedly until corruption is gone ?  The exp penalty isn't really a deterrent for max level characters?  Since there's no de-leveling, it seems like it would only be a meaninful deterrent for the first few months (tops) ??

What is to stop them is that there are debuffs to your stats the more negative exp you gain. So there is the deterrent for max level characters. Death exp penalties won't delevel you, but they will impact your performance, and for max level characters that pk enough to get to the threshold of negative exp that impacts stats, that is a risk vs reward decision they have made. This is the reason why someone corrupted would choose to take the option of doing the religious quest chain to reduce corruption rather than dying. No stat debuff and no death exp if they complete whatever that particular mechanic turns out to be before getting killed by everyone hunting them while red.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

What is to stop them is that there are debuffs to your stats the more negative exp you gain. So there is the deterrent for max level characters. Death exp penalties won't delevel you, but they will impact your performance, and for max level characters that pk enough to get to the threshold of negative exp that impacts stats, that is a risk vs reward decision they have made. This is the reason why someone corrupted would choose to take the option of doing the religious quest chain to reduce corruption rather than dying. No stat debuff and no death exp if they complete whatever that particular mechanic turns out to be before getting killed by everyone hunting them while red.

   Interesting - I can't find anything that ties 'combat efficacy' to death penalty... just to corruption.  It does say that the death penalties for pvp and pve are the same, so does that mean pve character stats will drop with death as well?

  Personally, I've always disliked systems that make you weaker when you already weren't able to handle an area (makes it hard to 'get out' at times).  Then again, I tend to run low level toons thru areas 20+ levels higher then them while exploring, so it probably serves me right    I prefer just having a larger exp penalty to work off...

ArchivedUser

We have the statement that PVE death penalties will be reduced in proximity to open world dungeons, raids, and world bosses to make "wipes" impact multiple attempts less of a factor. If you take that to its logical conclusion, that is the second confirmation of death penalties affecting stats. Also, we have no clarification on how exp for mobs will work, but we do know they want to reduce the "grind" and endless mob spawn farming, so you will most likely see diminishing returns for mobs too low for you or too high, but once again, that hasn't been confirmed.

Seems pretty clear.

ArchivedUser

Seems to me that some here are missing the most interesting part of this thread. The question; "Where is the line drawn as far as DIRECT interdiction of a player's character agency over his own time? "

Here it seems that 5 mins of slave labor is more of a serious "no-no" than a combat AND a 10 minute corpse run. That may be fine or it may not be fine but is still an interesting question.

ArchivedUser

Zastro said:

The point is that social interaction facilitates doing things you did not expect. You cannot play a social game and honestly expect to only do things you planned on doing. It does not matter how "hollow" you think this argument "sounds". I am not arguing feelings or subjectiveness. You do not even have to go off this website to find out that this game is not being designed to allow you to always be able to do only what you want. You will be forced to do things you did not plan to do. 

EQ, WoW, NWO - those are social games where I can play without other players forcing me to do stuff I'm not in the mood to do. Which is why I play the first two games on PvE-servers rather than on PvP servers.

I think the point of this thread is: "How would people feel about a different mechanic where players can force other players to do (a non-combat) something they're not in the mood to do??"

ArchivedUser

I will concede that, in those games, it is a lot harder to "force" anyone into an interaction, but I was using "forced" in reference to this game not those themepark mmos. "Doing things you did not expect" was what I used to reference social interactions in general. 

I think as long as the person can react with their character in some way, a way that they still have control over their character, it would be okay to have a mechanic that did such a thing. As long as it wasn't an arbitrary thing that made no sense for the game or its world.

ArchivedUser

BrokeAssMiner said:
...

Ok - read the links... serious question - whats to stop corrupt players form just putting their 'good' gear in the bank, go someplace close to a friend, and let the kill you repeatedly until corruption is gone ?  The exp penalty isn't really a deterrent for max level characters?  Since there's no de-leveling, it seems like it would only be a meaninful deterrent for the first few months (tops) ??

If you die while corrupted (as of now) you spawn randomly in the world (maybe ZOI of node, maybe anywhere). This allows time for someone, besides friends/guildies to kill you, especially due to no fast travel.

It's not full proof, but I don't think guildies and friends will be the only one's taking out corrupted players.

ArchivedUser

People who can't kill you: Party members, Raid members, guildies and citizens as the same node as you.