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Headshots, Hitboxes, Crits and Stat itemisation.
I'll start by saying I whole heartedly appreciate Intrepid pushing the envelope with the vision of combat in Ashes. It needs to be done.
But i must voice some concerns that may or may not have been addressed already. I believe there is a forum poll partially regarding the matter of headshots, But I would like to dig a little deeper.
Split systems, balance issues and conflicts within hybridasation.
So I get the logic behind action combat system rewarding skill* with a crit. my concerns are as follows.
1. are all the hit boxes the same size/dimensions for all player entities? If not the how will the prevention of best min-max advantage choices be alleviated aka (elitism) Also can they be effected by other forms of itemisation/consumables...
2. How robust will NPC/Mob AI and design be to prevent Action combat Headshot uptime overpowering tab systems?
3. Will gear stats that provide a crit bonus for tab target users be bypassable/avoidable for action combat users allowing them to put more stats into other perks making them overall stronger characters?
4. Will a full group of snipers trivialise content? speed runs, boss kills, single target nukes etc....
5. how hardware and system hungry will the multiple hit box resource management be? can the average computer handle the massive player conflicts proposed to occur...
I'll admit i am old school and prefer TAB, But I know there is player base that don't...
I just don't know if the Pandora's (head shot/crit hit) box is the solution...I have long term reservations and concerns.
So yeah probably could waffle on a bit more but it's already getting into to long didn't read territory.
But i must voice some concerns that may or may not have been addressed already. I believe there is a forum poll partially regarding the matter of headshots, But I would like to dig a little deeper.
Split systems, balance issues and conflicts within hybridasation.
So I get the logic behind action combat system rewarding skill* with a crit. my concerns are as follows.
1. are all the hit boxes the same size/dimensions for all player entities? If not the how will the prevention of best min-max advantage choices be alleviated aka (elitism) Also can they be effected by other forms of itemisation/consumables...
2. How robust will NPC/Mob AI and design be to prevent Action combat Headshot uptime overpowering tab systems?
3. Will gear stats that provide a crit bonus for tab target users be bypassable/avoidable for action combat users allowing them to put more stats into other perks making them overall stronger characters?
4. Will a full group of snipers trivialise content? speed runs, boss kills, single target nukes etc....
5. how hardware and system hungry will the multiple hit box resource management be? can the average computer handle the massive player conflicts proposed to occur...
I'll admit i am old school and prefer TAB, But I know there is player base that don't...
I just don't know if the Pandora's (head shot/crit hit) box is the solution...I have long term reservations and concerns.
So yeah probably could waffle on a bit more but it's already getting into to long didn't read territory.
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I THINK...(Sorry if wrong) Castle siege alpha 1 p1 will be all action as well...(?) So, we will get a much better look at action combat. We just get to wait and see, and hope they do it right.
As for the action combat gear, I totally agree this needs to be a thing IF armor truly has offensive stats and such. Maybe even a Crit reduction component. Then you're looking at crafted sets like in ArcheAge, Crit leather, tank leather, melee leather ect. It would be sad to see the BiS leather have crit chance on it, if you plan to be an action combater
Valid concerns, Time will tell
1.) The existence of different races of Vera, as well as the customization of the Tulnar, pretty much guarantees that some players with have different hit-boxes. This will most likely be countered with differing race stats (AKA a dwarf is small and harder to hit with some attacks/skills, but he isn't going to be able to move as fast as other races.)
2.) As Spatanz mentioned, we won't really know how the Tab v. Action will work until further into the Alpha. Luckily, that still gives us, and the developers, plenty of time to get used to such a system and alter it as needed.
3.) I don't see why they would do this, nor how it would be by-passable at all. The only thing I can think of is that the action combat skills would be less likely to rely on or use crit based play styles, to which I would simply say that non-crit builds have always existed in MMO's and probably won't disappear any time soon.
4.) This is another thing that will need balancing and testing through the alpha/beta stages, but I agree that ranged attacks give players a huge advantage against mods. Making sure that they are not the obvious choice over melee builds 100% of the time is something I hope that IS, with everything else their doing, doesn't forget about
5.) Not sure how old-school your computer is, but https://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=34813&game=Ashes of Creation is a great place to check if you can handle it. It gives both the specs we know we need now, as well a projected minimum requirements for full release, and shows what, if anything, needs upgrading. A mid tier computer should be satisfactory though, especially if your not looking to go for ultra high graphics settings and the like.
I hope this was helpful!
1. are all the hit boxes the same size/dimensions for all player entities? If not the how will the prevention of best min-max advantage choices be alleviated aka (elitism) Also can they be effected by other forms of itemisation/consumables...
2. How robust will NPC/Mob AI and design be to prevent Action combat Headshot uptime overpowering tab systems?
3. Will gear stats that provide a crit bonus for tab target users be bypassable/avoidable for action combat users allowing them to put more stats into other perks making them overall stronger characters?
4. Will a full group of snipers trivialise content? speed runs, boss kills, single target nukes etc....
5. how hardware and system hungry will the multiple hit box resource management be? can the average computer handle the massive player conflicts proposed to occur...
I'll admit i am old school and prefer TAB, But I know there is player base that don't...
I just don't know if the Pandora's (head shot/crit hit) box is the solution...I have long term reservations and concerns.
Headshots in particular will be riskier than bodyshots because (I assume they are sensible enough to do it) of the sizedifference.
So you can use headhits to counterbalance missrate if you overall just missed a whole lot and it counteracts the dimishing return above mentioned.
I doubt that you will ever be able to speedrun anything just because you headshot something 40 times in a row, that would just mean the content is trivial in the first place and anyone could. After all we are promised a slower more tactical approach to the game and the arenamode back at Pax?(or whatever event it was) did give the impression of longer winded battles as promised.
Valid concerns for sure, but overall I would say at some point we just have to trust the developers that they put the effort behind it to make it balanced by asking themselves the same questions.
just thought there might have been some hard facts I am not aware of.
Like I said, I am not entirely against (headshot crit) it I am just concerned on implementation and consequences.
I do not adhere to a 100% balance mantra, as all games that do inevitably end up stale, boring and dead.
I feel that just the right amount of imbalance is necessary in tandem with a rock/paper/scissors foundation to prevent a hard META from forming. this keeps the game mechanics in perpetual flux resulting in a better long term experience.
Obvious tweaking and dialing in the buff/nerf metrics are expected.
I know you say that you understand it's a system that provides a crit as reward for skill but then your hypotheticals include a 99% head shot rate player. Maybe someone in alpha can tell us how hard it is to hit a headshot and how frequently it happens? But I mean if a player can legitimately pull off a 99% hit shot rate then yes they should be called "over powered", they've earned it. Is there a way to achieve this with tab targeting? Probably not, but it's also much easier to hit things with tab targetting and therefore should have a lower ceiling. So if you decide to exclusively rely on tab targeting then yes you should be outcompeted by skilled action combat players imo: that's not a balance issue, that's a skill issue. It doesn't mean tab targeting is not viable, but it won't be max/min optimal in some/many situations.
I also prefer tab targeting but to give an example: hunters in WoW back in BC (when I played) had no way of distinguishing themselves in dps really imo, you had the "optimal rotation" that you would spam and that was it. Of course being a good player is being able to follow boss mechanics and stay alive and all but there was no real way for a "skilled" player in PvE to pump out bigger numbers than another one if they had the same gear. I personally would like a system where dps classes can distinguish themselves in PvP AND PvE and the multi hit-box system sounds like it could do that.
Also, it can still be balanced by adjusting how easy/hard it is to crit by changing
i. hit box size ii. projectile/weapon speed iii. player movement speed/defensive skills etc
Again, not sure why a skilled player utilizing the more skill-based action combat system shouldn't overpower a tab system.
NPC/mobs don't need to have auto-crit head shots. If anything having multiple hit-boxes can make for interesting boss fights where you are rewarded for hitting certain boss parts while staying alive and dodging all other mechanics. It could also possibly reward having melee and ranged dps.
Final thought: I think the combat system should allow players who prefer tab, like me, to dabble in action (not be strictly binary) so we try to learn to be 99% headshot op (especially in PvP) but most likely find a sweet spot of tab and action that suits us personally through augments. I have a post about this if you want to read more on my thought on this.
If i can do more damage from further away with gear that doesn't require crit gear because i get it for free because of a skill metric and am less likely to be forced to evade/dodge which means a higher DPS uptime compared to all other playstyles then where is the incentive to play any other way, it's a significant risk to the health of the game.
by having a Sniper system risks becoming the "Cheese" so it requires it's own tuning to make it compatible with all the other systems.
Split systems are generally a balancing nightmare.
Will I be able select tab target the same distance as a Action Combat shot?
Will I have the same tab target skill range as a Action Combat shot?
Maybe have gear soft cap crit rate and flat short term buff increases to multiplier not crit rate so we don't see people running around with ridiculous crit rates of 40% or more in average to good gear, Really don't want to see Diablo III or Tera style damage outputs for PvE lets keep it closer to Everquest damage outputs pre Plane of Power.
So I have no idea on the range, there is no information on it but I would like to assume it would be similar range. I also am not sure why you assume the hit-box system would not apply to melee characters.
So if we get rid of the increased range assumption, I'm not sure your "needing to dodge/evade less" argument remains. Neither does the label of "cheese" as it will be the same as if a tab-targeting player crits you on their first shot, you wouldn't call that cheese. But again, I'm not sure why you insist that using the tab-targeting system should be incentivized, it is an option we are given (which most games don't give), and we choose what suits us best.
Briefly my thought process:
- Tab-targeting is 1. stat based (gear) and 2. involves tactical decision making
- Multi hit-box action combat is 1. stat based (gear), 2. involves tactical decision making (albeit maybe to a lesser degree, especially in PvE) and 3. skill-based targeting
Being involved in PvP combat where someone is using action combat also forces a tab-targeting player to be more skillful as how they move/try to evade incoming shots is in their hand, it literally makes the whole game a bit more skillful to play for everyone.Multi hit-box action combat is harder than tab targeting and is less gear reliant. You should have a higher ceiling with it than you do with tab-targeting. If you want to be max/min optimal, you should try to get good at it. So why would anyone ever use tab-targeting? Because it will be hard to be good enough to outcompete tab-targeting.
Just because the skill/dps ceiling is higher, doesn't mean everyone who uses it will be at the ceiling. Realistically, they can balance it so that maybe initially only 15% of people using action combat can pump out higher dps than tab-targeting players, the rest do ~the same or less even because they can't land shots. But maybe 10% of those 15% do way more damage because they are super good at it so people want to achieve that too so they push through having lower dps in hopes of getting better.
I just don't see a point to force incentivize a less involved combat system with higher gear/stat reliance (tab-targeting) when there is a combat system which is more skill based and contains all the other stuff too more or less.
I am not sure where you interpreted forced incentvisation from of "less involved" combat.
The mojority of what i have said thus far is that ranged action DPS is the less involved system compared to everything else. That might be hard to understand, but reticle acuracy isn't rocket surgery either. I would go as far as to say that ranged DPS is the easiest class/profession generally speaking in the MMORPG genre, TAB or Action.
I am also aware how the MMO community psyche can be sheepled into the (only way to play) situation regardless of skill, abilty or logic. the META will always generate a herd and headshots specifically have a very inherent risk to the META.
I have seen similar toxic effects in other MMOs.
I get the 'maffs' aspect of dice rolls vs skill shots compensation metrics in theory.
As mentioned before it's now a wait and see on implementation and how the compound effects are managed to prevent an exponential combat nightmare.
Oh ok, I think I get your concern now. It's more of a ranged vs melee issue I guess. Fair, yeah we'll have to see how it's handled.
Personally, I don't mind everyone trying to head shot me if it's rate of occurance/impact is reasonable. I'd just assume most of those players would end up doing less damage to me than if they were tab-targeting :P.
So not quite 100% skill.
Don't forget my concern is specific to the head shot free crit. Not the action ranged DPS playstyle as a whole. I am not ANTI ranged.
projectile size, drop, velocity, hit scan size are indeed inherent attributes specific to the playstyle. Hence my other mentioned concerns of performance and system resources grand scale.
Sure it can be skill and the art of combat engagment, but it can also be stand and pew pew pew.
a world of perma jumping wiggle run counter (immersion) perhaps.
A: I dont know for sure but if I remember correctly they said the boxes will be the same size.
It doesnt mean same shape but same mm² from all sides I would expect.
Q: 2. How robust will NPC/Mob AI and design be to prevent Action combat Headshot uptime overpowering tab systems ?
Opinion: I think for PvE bosses it would be unfair for melees if range could just always headshot. They may be disabled for bosses. For other content I wont be able to say until we know how evasion works in the game.
At highest skill levels it makes sense for aiming to overpower tab, as tab has lower skill requirement.
Q: 3. Will gear stats that provide a crit bonus for tab target users be bypassable/avoidable for action combat users allowing them to put more stats into other perks making them overall stronger characters?
Opinion: It would make no sense if tab target was equal to an expert aimer. Tab target has only one risk factor which is evasion and we don't know if it affects aimers too. Tab skills have thus 2 reasons to be worse than aim if eva affects both. Lower skill requirement and tab skills are locked on target. Tab should be equal to mediocore or slighty over med aimer.
Q: 4. Will a full group of snipers trivialise content? speed runs, boss kills, single target nukes etc....
A: If the class balance isnt there, yes.
O: AA vs Tab is a scenario where AA experts should overcome tab that takes no risks. You will have to take min 25% AA skills so this will be like setting up optimal talent builds. There is always a best setup in every game and I doubt AoC or any other game will be able to overcome this. We just dont know if it will be more AA or tab yet.
Q: 5. how hardware and system hungry will the multiple hit box resource management be? can the average computer handle the massive player conflicts proposed to occur...
A: FPS games handle a huge lot of ppl easily with hitboxes and there are 20+ year old games 80+ player maps with more hitboxes. MMOs can be laggy with or without hitboxes, it only depends on the coders behind the scenes.
Opinion: Ive seen many games with laggy hit calculations even w/o hitboxes. If hitboxes were too much trouble id rather be without. I anyhow doubt that as technology has developed rather quickly and the IS team doesnt seem that bad.
Kevin FTW!
I have no idea how you can see 100% hit chance with no effort equal to risking complete miss on every shot.
And the developers could simply make it so that tab-targeted skills have complications that twitch skills don’t.
Just because you can’t think of a way to balance the play styles, don’t assume the experienced professional game designers can’t also.