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Holy Trinity - No "We can all heal ourselves" -mmorpg pls

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  • Every MMO supports some level of solo play.  Usually there’s a point where you’ll feel the need to group up, or there is certain content that requires you to be in a group to even attempt it.  But the vast majority of content in any MMO can be soloed.

    Why is this the case in a “multiplayer” game?  It’s simple; if your content requires a player to find other players who:

    1) Are on when you are
    2) Want to do the same thing you’re doing
    3) Have the right classes/builds to complement yours
    4) Aren’t a chore to team up with

    Just to do anything?  Sorry that would be a pain in the ass.  So even an MMO doesn’t work like that for the majority of play.  People want a game they can log into and do what they want when they want most of the time.

    The idea that an MMO should never support any solo play sounds like an assumption coming from a person who has never played one before.
  • Atama said:
    Every MMO supports some level of solo play.  Usually there’s a point where you’ll feel the need to group up, or there is certain content that requires you to be in a group to even attempt it.  But the vast majority of content in any MMO can be soloed.

    Why is this the case in a “multiplayer” game?  It’s simple; if your content requires a player to find other players who:

    1) Are on when you are
    2) Want to do the same thing you’re doing
    3) Have the right classes/builds to complement yours
    4) Aren’t a chore to team up with

    Just to do anything?  Sorry that would be a pain in the ass.  So even an MMO doesn’t work like that for the majority of play.  People want a game they can log into and do what they want when they want most of the time.

    The idea that an MMO should never support any solo play sounds like an assumption coming from a person who has never played one before.
    I am pretty sure games like Destiny and Fallout 76 are not classified as MMORPGs. Every MMORPG I have played has most of the entertaining content requiring teams of some sort to complete.

    If I spend 10 hours leveling a character to max level, which takes me through a vast world and I kill a lot of different monsters, but 500 hours maxing out my gear in endgame dungeons that REQUIRE a team to complete, then which one is considered the bulk of my play? The time spent maxing out my gear with my team in endgame dungeons, or the vast desert that i ran through that just had stuff thrown into it to level me up?

    BTW I am bringing this example from Tera and Neverwinter, because they both do this. Neverwinter is slightly different since they have the soloable areas for most of the boons.
  • I’m basing my comment on the MMOs I’ve played since 1999, which are so numerous I couldn’t possibly list them all.  I’ve played TERA and NWO (on both PC and Xbox One each one).  I’ve played dozens since EQ, probably close to a hundred (that’s kind of depressing actually if I think about it).  I’ve never played one that didn’t allow you to be solo most of the time.

    The biggest exception was probably EverQuest because once you got past the very low levels, the difficulty scaled such that you couldn’t solo anything that was strong enough to give any loot or XP (you could only solo things that would “con” grey in difficulty and basically didn’t count).  So before long you had to group up even trying to level.  But I can’t think of another game since that absolutely required a group to do anything.

    Destiny is a multiplayer FPS, with RPG elements.  Fallout 76 is like an MMORPG but not “massively” multiplayer (you join small servers) and it’s more of a hybrid action/RPG.  You are correct that they aren’t technically MMORPGs.
  • Final Fantasy 11 (level 75 cap era, horizontal progression) was very based on Holy Trinity concept where each class can be important roles or different setup classes can make different strategic approach on dungeons, raid boss, world boss. It also had main class and sub class for different play style. Each class/setup bring different benefits to each situation, also affecting each other and enemies (both PVE and PVP). Game was a very hardcore idea of co-ordination between classes setup and players, game was not very ideal for solo and casual, but you still get to do a lot of things with different sub class while solo (Beast Master was a solo class).
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    Rwraith said:
    Not being able to self heal would be a downer for solo players.
    Could you please tell me what MMO stands for in MMORPG? I am SUPER curious as to what that means :smile:

    If you wanna play a solo RPG then you have a LOT of different choices:
    -Horizon Zero Dawn
    -Skyrim
    -Fallout 4
    -Uncharted
    -Last of Us
    -Tired of naming recent titles now because there are too many XD
    MMO in MMORPG does not stand for "being healed by others".
    A wide variety of fun ways to interact with other players in MMORPGs that does not involve using combat abilities.

    Solo play in MMORPGs really just means not formally joining a party while adventuring. Which is perfectly fine.
    If people want to play a single-player RPG, they will go play a single-player RPG. Refusing to rely on other players during combat is not at all the same thing as playing an MMORPG as if it's a single-player RPG.
  • Rwraith said:
    Not being able to self heal would be a downer for solo players.
    Could you please tell me what MMO stands for in MMORPG? I am SUPER curious as to what that means :smile:

    If you wanna play a solo RPG then you have a LOT of different choices:
    -Horizon Zero Dawn
    -Skyrim
    -Fallout 4
    -Uncharted
    -Last of Us
    -Tired of naming recent titles now because there are too many XD
    I don't understand people like you.

    People have different play styles.  Some love to be in a party.  Some like to solo.  Most people do both.  

    Just because it is a MMO does not mean to always have to group up with other people.  It just means others are in the same world as you.

    You live in a massive populated world right now.  Ever feel like spending a day away from others? 

    Nice rule of thumb: You play the way you like and let others play the way they like.  The more options people have in a game, the better the game in most cases. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    rigamorti said:
    Rwraith said:
    Not being able to self heal would be a downer for solo players.
    Could you please tell me what MMO stands for in MMORPG? I am SUPER curious as to what that means :smile:

    If you wanna play a solo RPG then you have a LOT of different choices:
    -Horizon Zero Dawn
    -Skyrim
    -Fallout 4
    -Uncharted
    -Last of Us
    -Tired of naming recent titles now because there are too many XD
    I don't understand people like you.

    People have different play styles.  Some love to be in a party.  Some like to solo.  Most people do both.  

    Just because it is a MMO does not mean to always have to group up with other people.  It just means others are in the same world as you.

    You live in a massive populated world right now.  Ever feel like spending a day away from others? 

    Nice rule of thumb: You play the way you like and let others play the way they like.  The more options people have in a game, the better the game in most cases. 
    Try reading the comment I responded to. If you want to be ignorant your whole life, then fine by me, but keep me out of it. He wanted to be able to self heal which, in some cases, makes a healing class being in the game pointless, and the last time I checked MMOs are developed with GROUP play in mind. Meaning if you want to self heal, you need to rely on some external force, unless you are a tank or healing class, then it is only natural to be able to heal yourself. If you cannot understand that much, then there is no hope for you.
  • If there is a way to replenish your health without a healer I hope it will be by regenerating by a campfire, using bandages, sitting to eat stackable food or food that doesnt stack but can be used in combat and thus runs out if youre not careful with ur steps and encounters.

    I hope one of these will exist to ease non healing class adventurers with discovering the map.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    meh
    Just take Cleric as your secondary class if you want to heal yourself easily.
    And again, it's MMO; not Grouping Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
    There is more to interacting with other players in MMORPGs than just grouping.

  • People should have a good bit of sustainability to roam/explore and even farm solo.  It doesn't have to be one the other.  It should be both...  Raid/boss fights should clearly require a large amount of team effort and communication while in other settings players have the opportunity in game to fight by themselves.  It shouldn't be exclusively social play or exclusively solo play, it's not at all impossible to mix these elements.
  • You could always solo in the older games however your tactics varied.  This myth that you couldn't solo rewarding content in EQ is just that; a myth.  Plenty of druids, bards and rangers had to learn to quad kite with Dots, Spirit of the Wolf, Snares, Roots and Thorns.  Necromancers learn to fear kite if their pet could not be sustained.  Beastmasters carried alot of bandages.

    Everyone wants to be the hero of their own story but then ignores every book or movie they have ever read where the lone hero often nearly dies after a serious grim battle and is forced to seek out companions at some point.  

    You should be able to explore, but not everywhere and exploration alone will not necessarily be rewarding.

    The problem is the word "farm."  Farms provided sustenance not engaging game play.  If you want to slaughter pigs for meat that is one thing; if you want to live an epic adventure you have to modify your expectations and plan on playing smarter. 

    Do I think you should still be able to pull off single pulls; stealth kills and tactical engagements in that orc camp; yes.  However, I think discovery by a patrol or an enemy escaping to alert the garrison, should result in a flight from death or an epic demise.  I think a handful of engagements and injuries should result in recovery time; not an endless stream of battle.

    I despise the facile nature of games today.   There are no repercussions for crappy decision making.  "Oh time to ghost walk back to my body"  Hell, Fallout 76 you don't even lose your equipment if you bite off more than you can chew and attack another player; just your scrap.

    The lack of reliance on the community is what has created the toxicity that plagues so many games since my early days EQ and UO. 

    People can be complete butt munches in instances or dungeons and hey.. just use the dungeon finder to find the next one.  Server reputation for skill or fair play used to have meaning.  Now it's dumbed down so lil Johnny can "farm."

    Perhaps I'm jaded.  However, WoW brought the RTS, FPS, CRPG communities into MMOs due to Blizzard's name recognition.  Sure they brought this massive player base which funded new game development; but they also brought in the "lobby until next match" impatience and mentality. 

    It's like the difference you see in tabletop RPGs between "rollplayers" and "roleplayers."

    MMOs used to be the domain of the roleplayers.  It was an extension of the tabletop and was more focused on the adventure, the story and those characters we meet in game.  Now, many games seem to be about rollplaying; the purple loot, dps meters and the self.  Wah..!!! I want to see it all or the game is broken.

    I'm sorry but Smaug ate alot of solo critters before Thorin's company earned his gold.
  • @Pogybait I largely agree with the idea of repercussions for stupid decisions to an extent.  But we have to remeber that it’s a game for having fun, being unique, and ultimately striving to be the legend.  I absolutely think “farming” is legit gameplay. I mean f***, we farm everyday of our lives in RL, that’s about as realistic as it gets homeboi.  Sometimes people just wanna relax and farm/explore alone.  There should absolutely be alternate avenues totally subjective to players preference (reasonably) on their ideal goal(s).
  • Pogybait said:
    You could always solo in the older games however your tactics varied.  This myth that you couldn't solo rewarding content in EQ is just that; a myth.  Plenty of druids, bards and rangers had to learn to quad kite with Dots, Spirit of the Wolf, Snares, Roots and Thorns.  Necromancers learn to fear kite if their pet could not be sustained.  Beastmasters carried alot of bandages.

    Everyone wants to be the hero of their own story but then ignores every book or movie they have ever read where the lone hero often nearly dies after a serious grim battle and is forced to seek out companions at some point.  

    You should be able to explore, but not everywhere and exploration alone will not necessarily be rewarding.

    The problem is the word "farm."  Farms provided sustenance not engaging game play.  If you want to slaughter pigs for meat that is one thing; if you want to live an epic adventure you have to modify your expectations and plan on playing smarter. 

    Do I think you should still be able to pull off single pulls; stealth kills and tactical engagements in that orc camp; yes.  However, I think discovery by a patrol or an enemy escaping to alert the garrison, should result in a flight from death or an epic demise.  I think a handful of engagements and injuries should result in recovery time; not an endless stream of battle.

    I despise the facile nature of games today.   There are no repercussions for crappy decision making.  "Oh time to ghost walk back to my body"  Hell, Fallout 76 you don't even lose your equipment if you bite off more than you can chew and attack another player; just your scrap.

    The lack of reliance on the community is what has created the toxicity that plagues so many games since my early days EQ and UO. 

    People can be complete butt munches in instances or dungeons and hey.. just use the dungeon finder to find the next one.  Server reputation for skill or fair play used to have meaning.  Now it's dumbed down so lil Johnny can "farm."

    Perhaps I'm jaded.  However, WoW brought the RTS, FPS, CRPG communities into MMOs due to Blizzard's name recognition.  Sure they brought this massive player base which funded new game development; but they also brought in the "lobby until next match" impatience and mentality. 

    It's like the difference you see in tabletop RPGs between "rollplayers" and "roleplayers."

    MMOs used to be the domain of the roleplayers.  It was an extension of the tabletop and was more focused on the adventure, the story and those characters we meet in game.  Now, many games seem to be about rollplaying; the purple loot, dps meters and the self.  Wah..!!! I want to see it all or the game is broken.

    I'm sorry but Smaug ate alot of solo critters before Thorin's company earned his gold.
    You hit the nail on the head really
  • Pogybait said:
    You could always solo in the older games however your tactics varied.  This myth that you couldn't solo rewarding content in EQ is just that; a myth.  Plenty of druids, bards and rangers had to learn to quad kite with Dots, Spirit of the Wolf, Snares, Roots and Thorns.  Necromancers learn to fear kite if their pet could not be sustained.  Beastmasters carried alot of bandages.

    I played EQ from just after release until after Ruins of Kunark was released (but left before other expansions).  I'm not sure how early you played the game but I can tell you that your statement is very incorrect. Sure, maybe some classes could kite to solo but that wasn't an option for all classes.  My warrior had no such option at least.  And considering how common it was to find groups just to fight enemies for XP and meager loot in later levels, most people clearly had trouble with it.  They might have eased up on that difficulty level over time but "in my day" (old man talk here) it wasn't like that.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    I was a guide for Ayonae Ro.  I didn't say all classes could solo; however I can see where my statement could leave you thinking that.  It's not, however, like people who were posting above who stated "you could not solo" or do content except grays. 

    Necromancers for instance soloed to max level often.

    Yes meaningful leveling you sought out groups; hell levels especially, however you did not log off in frustration being "unable to level" due to lack of finding parties.  Now if you go back to the game after it's height then you might; since the player base spread amongst competing and more modern games that streamlined and dumbed down gameplay for the masses.  (BIG ARROW POINTS TO QUEST)

    Your mythic weapon, for instance, was interspersed with both soloable and group required content; having been one of the early dozen on Firiona Vie who got his Water Sprinkler of Nem Ankh.

    Listen, at the end of the day.  I want my MMOs to resemble great works of fiction. 
    Even some of my favorite heroes are loners.

    Heroes do not wade in to the bandit camp at low levels and (farm) for hours; that's anything but heroic; you should have to spend a reasonable amount of  time pick and choosing your fights.  I do think there should be soloable content; picking off scouts; hit and run raids against caravans; or even stealth runs against installations or encampments by timing guard movements.  However, they should be fraught with more risk because you are choosing to play alone; vice the game catering to playing alone.

    There is a reason sentient races band together for strength; it's not so a lone neophyte can walk into the base and own them; if that's the community expectation for me that is indicative of a problem.

    However, I see too many people who want to do all of the content the same way as a group does.  I should be able to DPS,tank and heal myself during battle.. basically every munchkin you ever met at the local hobby store on game day.

    Class strength and weaknesses give them character.  When you give every class some form of heal; some aoe; some direct damage... then you you simply have the same class wearing a different skirt which I'm trying to avoid.

  • If you want to tank and heal become a Paladin or an Apostle.
    If you also wants some dps, see if you can find a racial or social augment for that or perhaps weapon abilities that allow you to dps in addition to tanking and healing.

    I don't think a Paladin is going to play exactly like an Apostle.
    I especially don't think a Pyrian Paladin is going to play exactly like a Ren'Kai Apostle nor will the Paladin wielding a potion-launcher play exactly like the Apostle wielding a battle-axe.
    They won't be the same just because they can both tank and heal.
  • Dygz said:
    If you want to tank and heal become a Paladin or an Apostle.
    If you also wants some dps, see if you can find a racial or social augment for that or perhaps weapon abilities that allow you to dps in addition to tanking and healing.

    I don't think a Paladin is going to play exactly like an Apostle.
    I especially don't think a Pyrian Paladin is going to play exactly like a Ren'Kai Apostle nor will the Paladin wielding a potion-launcher play exactly like the Apostle wielding a battle-axe.
    They won't be the same just because they can both tank and heal.
    Your comments are completely logical but still has a lot of assumptions on how some classes will work. We have no idea if Paladins can heal or what the true affect of the second class will have. 

    Again...it’s a perfectly logical assumption but an assumption none the less. We are not sure if anyone can tank and heal. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    It's not really an assumption that Paladins can heal: Steven has stated that they can self-heal.
    https://youtu.be/hIVnt8SDdrY?t=2348
    The Lazy Peon: So, if I chose the Tank main role and the Cleric secondary role, I could heal myself as a Tank?
    Steven: So, you would have some augments that could heal yourself... that could sustain yourself in combat, for sure. That would be our Paladin class. So, the Tank with a Cleric secondary would be a Paladin. And the Paladin wouldn't be able to heal the party, necessarily, but he would have some some self-sustaining abilities through these augments on his primary skills.

    That is the current game design.
    I suppose you could argue that the devs won't be able to fulfill the objectives of their game design.
    But, we can really only meaningfully discuss the game design at this point - not whether the devs will be able to fulfill their vision.


  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    I do not want your survival to be decided by whether you've got a healer with you or not. Sometimes I like to play solo, if there is no way to regain health or keep up somewhat of a defense on your own the game will not be fun. But of course we'd have to find a balance so that healing classes actually stay relevant.
  • Dygz said:
    It's not really an assumption that Paladins can heal: Steven has stated that they can self-heal.
    https://youtu.be/hIVnt8SDdrY?t=2348
    The Lazy Peon: So, if I chose the Tank main role and the Cleric secondary role, I could heal myself as a Tank?
    Steven: So, you would have some augments that could heal yourself... that could sustain yourself in combat, for sure. That would be our Paladin class. So, the Tank with a Cleric secondary would be a Paladin. And the Paladin wouldn't be able to heal the party, necessarily, but he would have some some self-sustaining abilities through these augments on his primary skills.

    That is the current game design.
    I suppose you could argue that the devs won't be able to fulfill the objectives of their game design.
    But, we can really only meaningfully discuss the game design at this point - not whether the devs will be able to fulfill their vision.


    Okay, I just took your comment a different way. Being able to self heal some is different then healing say a group. I guess I made my own assumption “doh” on what you were saying. You must have just been saying that a Paladin can tank and self heal itself to a point. Sorry for the misunderstanding. 
  • I would imagine there will be some form of quick regeneration outside of combat like eating food to keep the non healing classes up and going from battle to battle. 

  • Pogybait said:
    I was a guide for Ayonae Ro.

    Awesome, I was a guide on Bertox back in the day. *high five*
  •  He wanted to be able to self heal which, in some cases, makes a healing class being in the game pointless, and the last time I checked MMOs are developed with GROUP play in mind.

    Rigamorti said:
    Check again.  They are made for all play styles.  IMHO, the best MMO's encourage groups but still allow for single players to have fun as well.

    ..........................................
    whitedude31 said:
     Meaning if you want to self heal, you need to rely on some external force, unless you are a tank or healing class, then it is only natural to be able to heal yourself. If you cannot understand that much, then there is no hope for you.

    Rigamorti said:
    You seem a little hostile.  :)

    First, a debate on the healing is a good thing.  Many MMOs handle this differently.   In ESO for example, all classes can heal themselves, but when doing a real dungeon it really helps to have a main healer and a tank.  It is well balanced.

    So, no you don't have to completely take away self heals from a class.

    Second, I have played MMOs from the mid 90's.  I try to keep an open mind when it comes to details of a game.  You on the other hand seem quite stern on your opinion and are quick to dismiss anyone else's thoughts as "hopeless".  It's just a game.  Chillax.  :)  

  • I dont care what you guys are going to do but i am going to focus all my attention on creating my perfect bard. Melee, heavy armor, polearm wealding, Siren or Soul Weaver.
    Should be able to tank/heal at least a bit and give melee support to main tanks in groups, while being able to survive alone in the wilds through good armor and buffs. 
    My kill speed will be suboptimal and i may take an hour to kill an add but i will wear it down with unending resolve and my tenacious spirit!
  • Damokles said:
    I dont care what you guys are going to do but i am going to focus all my attention on creating my perfect bard. Melee, heavy armor, polearm wealding, Siren or Soul Weaver.
    Should be able to tank/heal at least a bit and give melee support to main tanks in groups, while being able to survive alone in the wilds through good armor and buffs. 
    My kill speed will be suboptimal and i may take an hour to kill an add but i will wear it down with unending resolve and my tenacious spirit!
    Just sing till you drive them to suicide ^^
  • nagash said:
    Damokles said:
    I dont care what you guys are going to do but i am going to focus all my attention on creating my perfect bard. Melee, heavy armor, polearm wealding, Siren or Soul Weaver.
    Should be able to tank/heal at least a bit and give melee support to main tanks in groups, while being able to survive alone in the wilds through good armor and buffs. 
    My kill speed will be suboptimal and i may take an hour to kill an add but i will wear it down with unending resolve and my tenacious spirit!
    Just sing till you drive them to suicide ^^
    All the more reason to name Bard + Fighter a Dirge!
  • nagash said:
    Damokles said:
    I dont care what you guys are going to do but i am going to focus all my attention on creating my perfect bard. Melee, heavy armor, polearm wealding, Siren or Soul Weaver.
    Should be able to tank/heal at least a bit and give melee support to main tanks in groups, while being able to survive alone in the wilds through good armor and buffs. 
    My kill speed will be suboptimal and i may take an hour to kill an add but i will wear it down with unending resolve and my tenacious spirit!
    Just sing till you drive them to suicide ^^
    All the more reason to name Bard + Fighter a Dirge!
    It should be totally Gladiator *hmph* ;D 
  • nagash said:
    Damokles said:
    I dont care what you guys are going to do but i am going to focus all my attention on creating my perfect bard. Melee, heavy armor, polearm wealding, Siren or Soul Weaver.
    Should be able to tank/heal at least a bit and give melee support to main tanks in groups, while being able to survive alone in the wilds through good armor and buffs. 
    My kill speed will be suboptimal and i may take an hour to kill an add but i will wear it down with unending resolve and my tenacious spirit!
    Just sing till you drive them to suicide ^^
    That’s called minstrel pain.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    You should call the class "pop star"   ^^
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