About hybrid combat mechanics.

Let me be devils advocate here for a moment.
Right now from the footage i have seen we have fast paced combat.

You need to aim react and there are some skill based elements in there.

When looking at other games that use a hybrid style of combat
And we can see that the combat is much slower and less skill based.
And less fun.

Why would Ashes of Creation chose to go with tab targeting at all.
It is a antiquated combat mechanic and if people wanted tab targeting they could play WoW or some other ancient game?

Way makes me so sad you want to ruin the good combat you 
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Comments

  • 1 situation where tab targeting would be better used over action in my view at least would be in healing and support skills.

    Running around swinging a sword at a mob using action combat can be rewarding when you get skilled enough to hit more than you miss or land that headshot with a bow on another player. 

    But for those who prefer to run a healing and/or support class trying to aim and hit their team mates with heals and buffs/cleanses as they run around trying to not get hit by the foe would be a nightmare.
  • Ashes will be a hybrid game no matter how much people want it not to be. If you don't like that then that down to you, sorry if I sound so negative, but we have had these discussions for almost six months and it's getting tiresome 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited October 2018
    Arxeon said:
    1 situation where tab targeting would be better used over action in my view at least would be in healing and support skills.

    Running around swinging a sword at a mob using action combat can be rewarding when you get skilled enough to hit more than you miss or land that headshot with a bow on another player. 

    But for those who prefer to run a healing and/or support class trying to aim and hit their team mates with heals and buffs/cleanses as they run around trying to not get hit by the foe would be a nightmare.
    I can agree to a extent, but in the process you remove the need for proper movement and placement for hitting friend or foe. (Skill, timing and so 4th)

    It removes a huge part of the skill needed to be proficant and it will feel old and clunky compared to newer titels and combat.

    From someone how is just starting to care about Ashes of Creation 
    And have looked at the combat that is currently available.

    It seems that they are trying to please everyone and from my 20 years experience with MMO is that, that never works.

    Action combat is by far the new norm and it feels like taking steps backwards with tab targeting.

    I don`t want to be mister negative but tab targeting is BAD in 2018 and a hybrid system has never worked out in the past IMO.
  • If it comes out similar to guild wars 2 combat I'll be satisfied. The only thing I don't like about tab targeting is a projectile going through an enemy to get to your target.
  • I'm around here for only 2 weeks and i have stopped counting how many people open a thread like this about the hybrid system. If @nagash is right an this is already a discussion for six months then i wonder why nobody has gone insane already. 

    But i'm new so i have some energy left on this topic.
    I'm actually pretty excited for the hybrid system an think it will be good because:
    - some skills may make more sense as a tab-target
    - you are not forced to use either action or tab target. I think Steven mentioned something about 75 to 80% of the skills are either tab-target or action. So you can almost go full action or full tab.
    - i actually don't think they need to be balanced much. Casual Players mostly chose what they like so they don't care if maybe some action skills are a little stronger. And highly competitve Players probably don't care if its its action or tab as long as they have the most powerful meta. And hey some players might be better at tab and others  better at action.
    - i cant see how the hybrid system should slow combat down. Combat seems fast right know why would some tab target skills make the combat slower?

    The most important point: 
    If tab-targeting sucks then all players will go for the action variants of the skills. Interpid will see this trend an either improve tab targeting or remove it if no one is using it.
    And we have a year of develpment and testing ahead. I think they have enough time to make the hybrid system work.
  • Augentier said:
    I'm around here for only 2 weeks and i have stopped counting how many people open a thread like this about the hybrid system. If @nagash is right an this is already a discussion for six months then i wonder why nobody has gone insane already. 

    But i'm new so i have some energy left on this topic.
    I'm actually pretty excited for the hybrid system an think it will be good because:
    - some skills may make more sense as a tab-target
    - you are not forced to use either action or tab target. I think Steven mentioned something about 75 to 80% of the skills are either tab-target or action. So you can almost go full action or full tab.
    - i actually don't think they need to be balanced much. Casual Players mostly chose what they like so they don't care if maybe some action skills are a little stronger. And highly competitve Players probably don't care if its its action or tab as long as they have the most powerful meta. And hey some players might be better at tab and others  better at action.
    - i cant see how the hybrid system should slow combat down. Combat seems fast right know why would some tab target skills make the combat slower?

    The most important point: 
    If tab-targeting sucks then all players will go for the action variants of the skills. Interpid will see this trend an either improve tab targeting or remove it if no one is using it.
    And we have a year of develpment and testing ahead. I think they have enough time to make the hybrid system work.
    The pain never ends 
  • I've seen tab-targeting and hybrid games that are faster, more skill based and more fun than 'action' games. Those characteristics are not determined by the targeting system.

    The real question is; why would Ashes ever choose to go solely with 'action' targeting when it's less accessible, more prone to player burnout and many abilities just have no business being 'action' targeted?
  • isfjell said:
    Let me be devils advocate here for a moment.
    Right now from the footage i have seen we have fast paced combat. (...)

    Then your information is lacking. The BR mode is not representative for intended style or pace of AoC. It has been stated from the beginning it will be more on the slower paced side were an emphazis is put on positioning and tactics, not twitch reflexes and instant kills.
    BR is a testing enviorement to gather lots of data quickly, not the first itteration on intended combat style.

    The basic premise is simply wrong so I don't know what else to add to that.

  • nagash said:
    Ashes will be a hybrid game no matter how much people want it not to be. If you don't like that then that down to you, sorry if I sound so negative, but we have had these discussions for almost six months and it's getting tiresome 
    It seems there is no peace for the undead as well as the rest of us.
  • I bet @nagash secretly likes these kinds of threads. As undead he misses the real pain and has to get pain from other sources.
    I will create a thread just like this in a week or so just for him. 
  • Augentier said:
    I bet @nagash secretly likes these kinds of threads. As undead he misses the real pain and has to get pain from other sources.
    I will create a thread just like this in a week or so just for him. 
    Don’t worry there will be seven more that pop up before yours. 
  • Hey at last he's not complaining about the pvp...that much :>
  • Hey @nagash I was wondering if you could give me a quick run down of what the action combat is like from the testing? I know you wanna explain it right? ;)
  • It seems weird to me to make judgement on a hybrid system we haven't seen executed yet (forming strong opinions with little to go on or basing it on other games we've experienced). Is it just me?
  • Hey @nagash I was wondering if you could give me a quick run down of what the action combat is like from the testing? I know you wanna explain it right? ;)
    so far so good 
  • isfjell said:
    Why would Ashes of Creation chose to go with tab targeting at all.
    It is a antiquated combat mechanic and if people wanted tab targeting they could play WoW or some other ancient game?

    Way makes me so sad you want to ruin the good combat you 
    Yeah cause the few dozen new and modern action based games does so well with their "amazing" combat....
    oh.. wait...

    /struggles to live
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited October 2018
    i would love to see combat system like Tera, BnS ... hate combat system like Bless online OR OLD GAME LIKE SHAIYA (tab targeting combat system)... even GW2 is meh... and pls no tab targeting combat system - that will sucks b*lls... poor action will kill fun in BGs. 
  • akmaa said:
    isfjell said:
    Why would Ashes of Creation chose to go with tab targeting at all.
    It is a antiquated combat mechanic and if people wanted tab targeting they could play WoW or some other ancient game?

    Way makes me so sad you want to ruin the good combat you 
    Yeah cause the few dozen new and modern action based games does so well with their "amazing" combat....
    oh.. wait...

    /struggles to live
    Tera and Destiny are perfect examples of games that hold players purely based on their amazing combat system. Both those game certainly didn't keep me around for their content . . .

    There are plenty of other games that have amazing combat systems, but the reason they die is because of either a lack of content or poor management. P2W also causes the downfall of some decent action games as well.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited October 2018
    akmaa said:
    Yeah cause the few dozen new and modern action based games does so well with their "amazing" combat....
    oh.. wait...

    /struggles to live
    i can tell you that most people from black desert will tell you how bad their game is because of 1000 reasons, but the combat/gameplay isn't one of them. You should really check it out. You won't be able to play a tab targeter afterwards becuse it is just slow, poor and outdated if you had tasted the future.

    to add for the topic: You should wait till we see a first version of the Hybrid combat before we can really say how it works. Till that day everything is just theory based on assumptions.
  • i agree combat system will be different from what we see now... but its our job to say what combat system we enjoy the most. :) Now im wondering - if they make action combat, hybrid or tab targeting combat system seperate so everyone can enjoy the CB? that would be hard job mby.
  • Tera and Destiny are perfect examples of games that hold players purely based on their amazing combat system. Both those game certainly didn't keep me around for their content . . .

    There are plenty of other games that have amazing combat systems, but the reason they die is because of either a lack of content or poor management. P2W also causes the downfall of some decent action games as well.
    "hold players" you mean hold thousands of players? :D That's pretty dead IMO...

    Zhev said:
    akmaa said:
    Yeah cause the few dozen new and modern action based games does so well with their "amazing" combat....
    oh.. wait...

    /struggles to live
    i can tell you that most people from black desert will tell you how bad their game is because of 1000 reasons, but the combat/gameplay isn't one of them. You should really check it out. You won't be able to play a tab targeter afterwards becuse it is just slow, poor and outdated if you had tasted the future.

    to add for the topic: You should wait till we see a first version of the Hybrid combat before we can really say how it works. Till that day everything is just theory based on assumptions.
    I actually play with bdo, and despite I played with many games, and have literately more years worth of in game time, I never once saw a game designed by so lazy and not caring developers like bdo...
    It's also rather p2w...

    And yes, the combat suck hard in bdo. Idc what game did you play, but in bdo, combat is 95% gear and 5% skill, wow...

    Nevertheless bdo is a rather new game, yet guilds already strive to find new players, you can guess why...


    Slow... in wow, if you do a full cd burst, and your enemy doesn't do anything, you kill it around ~10s, with equal gear.
    In any game, where players can be killed much faster than this is just a oneshotfiesta, which aren't really something you would call skilled. (Ofc not counting simulators, and other realistic games, like fps.)
    Actually in bdo, the combat is pretty much this. The one, who can oneshot the other faster wins. Really amazing, fun and deep gameplay... literately nobrainer.

    But you are partly right, this is the future. The new generation, and the 9yo kids doesn't want complex and hard combat where they would need to learn... they want flashy but easy and forgiving combat.
    Action combat is like that.
    But too bad... this combat simply doesn't work in a mmo, where the main goal of the game is not the few second combat, but the road which you take to get there.
    That's also a reason, why games like lol and Fornite is the top game, and not mmo's.
    The target audience changed since kids leaching their parent's money earns more money...
    But too bad again... mmo's aren't just a 5-10minute run games, which that generation likes, so building on them results in a quickly dying game...
    Flashy combat maybe fun... for the first few times, but after the 100th time it will be just a pain in the ass...
  • I actually play with bdo, and despite I played with many games, and have literately more years worth of in game time, I never once saw a game designed by so lazy and not caring developers like bdo...
    It's also rather p2w...

    And yes, the combat suck hard in bdo. Idc what game did you play, but in bdo, combat is 95% gear and 5% skill, wow...

    Nevertheless bdo is a rather new game, yet guilds already strive to find new players, you can guess why...

    Slow... in wow, if you do a full cd burst, and your enemy doesn't do anything, you kill it around ~10s, with equal gear.
    In any game, where players can be killed much faster than this is just a oneshotfiesta, which aren't really something you would call skilled. (Ofc not counting simulators, and other realistic games, like fps.)
    Actually in bdo, the combat is pretty much this. The one, who can oneshot the other faster wins. Really amazing, fun and deep gameplay... literately nobrainer.
    At first i told you already, there are 1000 reasons to hate bdo. And im on your side, this developer and publisher are the biggest **** out there, but the combat-gameplay is still amazing.  you just shouldn't mix gameplay up with balance. You can destroy a tab-targeter too, by making all abilities oneshot, but is it a problem with tab-target-system than?
    Before bdo delete their pvp with todays oneshot-fest balance, you could even survive the fire of 10 people if you didnt follow a blind glass cannon build.(in wow you die instant, too, if you dont wear proper pvp gear) Bdo always had it weakness in balance, but this was much more connceted to their "not caring" than a porblem with the "action-style".
    To be true, i was always sceptical(humans are conversative by nature). when i only heard "action" i just turned away but today i have to say that the relationship from "action-combat" to "tab-target" is like the relationship "tile-movement" to "free-movement".
  • As said the BR mode really shouldn't be used to judge the systems that will be in place. If you are truly worried about the combat pace then we need to look at it when both systems are in place not just one. Additionally the pace seems fine to me IMO as no person with common sense would want a fight over in 2 seconds. This tends to kill off games faster than pace that is generally slower. If you don't believe me do some research I know MMO - PVP games with slower combat that are still going strong.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited October 2018
    Maybe AoC will be first MMO with hybrid combat what does not suck. Yes, maybe they can do something what nobody ever done it before.

    Truth is, all hybrid combat systems i played was very bad.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited October 2018
    There are so many problems i can forsee with a hybrid system.

    One is that one will be better than the other and skills in one line will be "required" to get invited to groups.
    The "meta" builds will be required.

    I rather have the classic zoomed out view with tab target.
    I get extremly bored very fast in every mmorpg that has action combat.
    Look at EVERY video from BR, its all about bunnyjumping, circlestrafing and mashing left mousebutton. Thats just SO insanly boring.
  • They have plenty of time to make combat system great. 

    The only thing that i dont like is when you attack... you automatically attack who is closer to u... like example - u "tab" someone and automatically when you use some skill it drags you to enemy like in old game... this stuffs dont requir any skill... The reason why my fav games was Tera and BnS and i hope in this game will be something like that or similar with real dogding skills. 

    #MakeCombatSystemGreatAgain
  • They have plenty of time to make combat system great. 

    The only thing that i dont like is when you attack... you automatically attack who is closer to u... like example - u "tab" someone and automatically when you use some skill it drags you to enemy like in old game... this stuffs dont requir any skill... The reason why my fav games was Tera and BnS and i hope in this game will be something like that or similar with real dogding skills. 

    #MakeCombatSystemGreatAgain
    Thats an option that you can untick in options in most mmorpgs..
  • AoC has lots of potential that will go right down to the sewer where tab targeting belongs if they still choose to have "hybrid". 

    When I play an mmo, I don't wanna mindlessly press 123456f1f2f3f4 etc with zero effort or technique. Tabtargeting is something that belongs in the ancient games it is in, not in a fresh new 2020 game. A hybrid like gw2 is just trash. 

    They should take a look of where the combat itself in mmos is actually praised, like Tera and Black Desert and take notes. 
  • Craved said:
    AoC has lots of potential that will go right down to the sewer where tab targeting belongs if they still choose to have "hybrid". 

    When I play an mmo, I don't wanna mindlessly press 123456f1f2f3f4 etc with zero effort or technique. Tabtargeting is something that belongs in the ancient games it is in, not in a fresh new 2020 game. A hybrid like gw2 is just trash. 

    They should take a look of where the combat itself in mmos is actually praised, like Tera and Black Desert and take notes. 
    Could not disagree more. I am hopeful to get the hybrid that Intrepid has talked about from the beginning. Until we start to test it there is no way to know how much fun it will be.
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