I actually do like the Master of one direction this is going in.
Master anything you like, but you need to choose just how much you specialize. You can diversity as well, you just need to split up the points you gain.
To me that's like asking for the ability to master all classes from one char (Essentially like FFXIV ) which isn't bad but doesn't promote choice or being unique.
I completely agree with you
0
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think the idea behind this was to make each craft type needed and to stop one person becoming Vulcan
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
1
AmistMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If one person is master of everything, he or she would be able to control the economy themselves
1
TheCouchNerdMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I like that they limit you to either master one or become decent at many. This way it encourages community interaction by making new friends but also force you to make a name of yourself.
You can make a name of yourself without this restriction.
If everyone can do everything most will just max the professions they need then do everything themselves.
Omg.. Do you really think that all people will automatically be self-sufficient if they have that chance? No they won't. Some will be, those who focus mainly on lifeskills. People value they playtime differently and we will have players who uses 0% to any artisans skills and those who uses 100%. Then we have every possible variations between those extremes. People will still trade and economy will be fine. It works in other games, why it would not work in Ashes?
Never said all will do it, I said most. And that's what I've seen in games that let you do everything. It takes away the charm of what Intrepid Studios is trying to make in my opinion. I like what the way they decided to do it.
@Ferryman Theme park MMOs like WoW still have a player driven economy
WoW does not have player-driven economy. In player driven economy all or most of the items are player crafted. So either you make those by yourself or you buy those from other players.
In most themepark games you get everything from the world, mobs, dungeons, raids.. and you do not need to buy anything from marketplace/auctionhouse. You can buy, but you do not have to. That is why in WoW people does not need to rely on each other.
Because WoW does not fulfill that ^^.
Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
0
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Ferryman Theme park MMOs like WoW still have a player driven economy
WoW does not have player-driven economy. In player driven economy all or most of the items are player crafted. So either you make those by yourself or you buy those from other players.
In most themepark games you get everything from the world, mobs, dungeons, raids.. and you do not need to buy anything from marketplace/auctionhouse. You can buy, but you do not have to. That is why in WoW people does not need to rely on each other.
Because WoW does not fulfill that ^^.
But is that a set definition on what a player driven economy is, or is it your perception of what it is? I haven't been able to find a set definition as to what it means. Only discussion as to what people consider it to be and what different criteria there are to fulfill being a player driven economy
This isn't going to be like other games where the Artisan classes are added as an afterthought. They are, first and foremost at the front of what Steven has in mind.
So, when you clear a Raid, the end boss, it may not drop a crafting material. It may be a corpse. You will need an appropriate high level gatherer in order to extra that crafting material from the boss.
If everyone could do every craft, then you'd have a everyone able to do it. Max level PvE Raiders would also have max level Gathering Classes.
In this scenario, the end boss requires someone with Maxed Mining. If you don't have someone with that, then you don't get the crafting item.
If everyone could master every crafting you'd *always* have someone with you that could do it, because its easy to master all of them if you only have to do it on your main.
How many people are going to have different fully geared alts in order to be able to swap between them as needed? Not many.
And that's just a tiny way to put meaning back into the MMO part of MMORPGs
DevorandomMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Ferryman That sounds like a crafting based economy. But I'm pretty sure an economy like WoWs is driven by it's players buying and selling relevant items on the auction house, thus being a player driven economy in the literal meaning of the words.
Now you all presume that the artisan system will be something where you can just easily max every branch if that would be possible. In theory that could happen, but the time needed for that could take years, tens of years, depending how much progression is needed. So the system will be of course build behind timewall.
And why everyone keeps saying if everyone can do everything? I have not asked that? Has someone else?
Okay, this seams to be pointless, because too many people does not know what player-driven economy actually means and/or they have not enough experience from sandbox games to understand, that the economy works well without any restrictions and player interactions does not end there either. This works in other games, so it would most certainly work also in AoC for sure.
Now if this artisan system would be a little bit less restrictive, it would give more content to those players who want to focus on lifeskills. This won't take anything away from others and it won't end the economy or need of other players.
I think a lot of games have just thrown crafting on as an add on rather than truly thinking about it
I agree with you and I think it is a shame actually. I would like to see, that games would make crafting and all other lifeskills more meaningful and not just some side activities. Of course I understand that combat will always be the biggest part of MMORPGs, but still it would be fresh to see more weight on lifeskills and bring those a little bit closer to combat.
Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
0
DevorandomMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Ferryman You yourself said that you don't care about low level stuff. So this implies you want mastery in multiple different professions. And most people point out that it is against the design intentions of the devs, not because it would make other people pointless, but because the devs want to maximize reliance on each other.
You don't know how much effort and time you will have to sink into one profession to master it, and so you don't know if it is too restrictive to begin with. It could still give more than enough for life skills people.
Also again the WoW economy is literally a "player driven economy" by the definition of the words. Just because you feel that only sand box MMOs can have them doesn't make it true.
1
AmistMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Now you all presume that the artisan system will be something where you can just easily max every branch if that would be possible. In theory that could happen, but the time needed for that could take years, tens of years, depending how much progression is needed. So the system will be of course build behind timewall.
And why everyone keeps saying if everyone can do everything? I have not asked that? Has someone else?
Okay, this seams to be pointless, because too many people does not know what player-driven economy actually means and/or they have not enough experience from sandbox games to understand, that the economy works well without any restrictions and player interactions does not end there either. This works in other games, so it would most certainly work also in AoC for sure.
Now if this artisan system would be a little bit less restrictive, it would give more content to those players who want to focus on lifeskills. This won't take anything away from others and it won't end the economy or need of other players.
Whereas there may have been some confusion in terms of what "player driven economy" actually means, I think the main reason for disagreement is that people are already happy with the current system in place. We don't necessarily come from a place of not having the knowledge about the system but are more so uninterested in seeing a change to the planned one.
@Ferryman You yourself said that you don't care about low level stuff. So this implies you want mastery in multiple different professions. And most people point out that it is against the design intentions of the devs, not because it would make other people pointless, but because the devs want to maximize reliance on each other.
You don't know how much effort and time you will have to sink into one profession to master it, and so you don't know if it is too restrictive to begin with. It could still give more than enough for life skills people.
Also again the WoW economy is literally a "player driven economy" by the definition of the words. Just because you feel that only sand box MMOs can have them doesn't make it true.
Multiple different professions is clearly not same as everything.
It is not the time which is restrictive, its the possibility to choose more than just one path. Some people wants to do more than just one profession for sure.
If you do not know what player-driven economy means, please do not try to make up that definition. I did not say, that only sandbox games has player-driven economy, but it is used a lot in that genre. In WoW players run just the auctionhouse, but the whole economy is driven by NPCs. Auctionhouse is not needed to run the economy, it only helps to sink some gold out of the game and promotes people to interact with each other.
Ashes of Creation will have player-driven economy, and like in many sandbox games, almost all items will be player crafted and traded. You can not buy items from NPCs or get gear pieces from mobs or dungeon bosses. So when all (or almost all) items in game are player crafted and player traded, then the economy is player-driven. That is the starting point for definition of player-driven economy. This is not something I have made up, it is a standard.
Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
0
pjrydeckerMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I actually loved being able to do everything with a couple of accounts in SWG. However I was only realy competative nearing the games end when the population was declining badly. When everyone who choses to can do everything the only way to sell your stuff is to be the cheapest and that is downward spiral to a lot of effort for no reward. Being able to master a very small portion of the options available will mean that if you pick your specailisation cleverly your goods will always be in demand and your efforts will be rewarding. Now we all want to make legendary 2 handed axes but if you are cleaver and become a master of making a compenent for that two handed axe then the 300 master axe builders will all have to by your master crafted core element at top doller as you are the only one making it and they will all be under cutting each other to sell the much more glamorous but likely less profit for effort item. Well thats what I hope it will be like
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DevorandomMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Ferryman I never said multiple professions we're the same as everything nor do most people seem to think that either.
Yes everybody understands that you want more than one profession and our response has been it's just against the design philosophy to maximize the interdependence of the playerbase.
In regards to what a player driven economy means I'll throw your words right back at you. There is no commonly agreed on definition as can be seen by this thread and others but by the definition of the words I am correct in saying that WoW is a player driven economy. I will admit I misread what you said about sandbox games but otherwise I would say you are still wrong.
You can claim your definition is standard all you like but that doesn't seem to be the case from this thread and others I have read.
All it takes for an economy to be player driven is that the players are the ones doing the majority of meaningful transactions.
Now you all presume that the artisan system will be something where you can just easily max every branch if that would be possible. In theory that could happen, but the time needed for that could take years, tens of years, depending how much progression is needed. So the system will be of course build behind timewall.
And why everyone keeps saying if everyone can do everything? I have not asked that? Has someone else?
Okay, this seams to be pointless, because too many people does not know what player-driven economy actually means and/or they have not enough experience from sandbox games to understand, that the economy works well without any restrictions and player interactions does not end there either. This works in other games, so it would most certainly work also in AoC for sure.
Now if this artisan system would be a little bit less restrictive, it would give more content to those players who want to focus on lifeskills. This won't take anything away from others and it won't end the economy or need of other players.
Yes, we know you can be "a jack of all trades, or a master of one (a few)"
T ElfMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I just wanted to add that crafting materials will be viable at all levels; not like some systems where once you are past a tier, those materials are never used again.
Formerly T-Elf
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unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I haven't kept up with news and my memory of the topic is pretty sketchy. I wouldn't mind if we earn points (?) for our crafting tree and at a certain level/number the amount needed to gain a new point (or whatever method they use) goes up exponentially. Putting a soft cap for most players, but those that LOVE gathering and crafting can keep going. So the path you choose will still matter. Sort of like in WoW: Legion the artifact weapons or BDO's leveling system. As long as they really can keep botters under control...
Going pay to play helps some. As long as they dont do things like wow where you can spend in game gold for membership.
Its just a level 1 security door but normally makes a difference. Im the same though about bots. It kills game. Look at Runescape. It used to be a major player community game. Then the bots came in and almost no one talks anymore.
The new forums don't like my quote images but I am sure @jahlon has a citation out there to back this up. They have said that they won't have a system like EVE Plex or WoW Token for just the reasons you would think. It makes gold selling/botting attractive and they are going to have enough problems slapping those who try silly in the beginning. Part of removing that appeal is making it hard as possible to get real money out of the system. Will they be able to block all RMT? No, but they have been aware of the plague since inception and have promised and given peeks at different methods they are planning to stop that activity. Rather than adding those systems after the fact like many have done in a kneejerk reaction, they have designed whole game systems and mechanics around getting the data in real time to combat problems and flare ups. Like so many things here, it is a leap of faith that they will be able to pull it off and many that have been following from the beginning are praying for the Sandaled One to bring balance back to the universe. But we know how that worked out with Anakin.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think players that want to max out all the artisan skills on one character are better suited for Skyrim.
I don't see why someone that would want to master multiple crafts wouldn't just do it with alternates. Since alts can share freeholds (last I heard) seems like this is a simple work around.
I do like the proposed system, I also love playing solo games where maxing out all skills is a great way to kill time. I can see both sides, I just think IS has found the right path for Ashes.
Also, I don't really think some players would be better suited for Skyrim.
You can claim your definition is standard all you like but that doesn't seem to be the case from this thread and others I have read.
All it takes for an economy to be player driven is that the players are the ones doing the majority of meaningful transactions.
That is just because you do not know what player-driven economy means or what is standard in MMORPGs. People should really play those games before making any weird arguments.
Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
0
AmistMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You can claim your definition is standard all you like but that doesn't seem to be the case from this thread and others I have read.
All it takes for an economy to be player driven is that the players are the ones doing the majority of meaningful transactions.
That is just because you do not know what player-driven economy means or what is standard in MMORPGs. People should really play those games before making any weird arguments.
I'll ask again. Is there a set definition as to what player driven economy means? If yes, show us a link or a quote or anything. I searched for a long time last night trying to figure out exactly what it means other than the direct meaning of each individual word mushed together and I was unable to find a set definition that didn't have multiple criteria that could be fulfilled, but didn't necessarily have to.
You act like you're the one in possession of all the knowledge and because we disagree with you, we're somehow uninformed. People are allowed to have opinions that differ from yours.
You can claim your definition is standard all you like but that doesn't seem to be the case from this thread and others I have read.
All it takes for an economy to be player driven is that the players are the ones doing the majority of meaningful transactions.
That is just because you do not know what player-driven economy means or what is standard in MMORPGs. People should really play those games before making any weird arguments.
I'll ask again. Is there a set definition as to what player driven economy means? If yes, show us a link or a quote or anything. I searched for a long time last night trying to figure out exactly what it means other than the direct meaning of each individual word mushed together and I was unable to find a set definition that didn't have multiple criteria that could be fulfilled, but didn't necessarily have to.
You act like you're the one in possession of all the knowledge and because we disagree with you, we're somehow uninformed. People are allowed to have opinions that differ from yours.
If you are looking for a set, industry standard definition of what a player driven economy is, you are correct there is none. So some of the people in this thread who stand atop a mountain and say "This is the answer and no other" are actually just as ignorant of what a player driven economy is as anyone else. There are very few terms in the industry that are solid and consistently applied, even terms as simple as Alpha and Beta are inconsistently applied, therefore something as complex as "player driven economy" would fail to have a solid and concrete industry standard.
If we want to start from the simplest of foundations, then we must look all the way back to Plato:
"The only thing I know, is that I know nothing"
Just as I asked Steven the other day about what he means by "action" and "tab", the only way we can know for sure what "Player-driven economy" means for Ashes of Creation is to go by a definition given by Steven of Jeffrey or more accurately Dr. Rocco Scandizzo, (Ph.D. in Economics, MBA Marketing, BA Economics) who was retained to be the Lead Economic Designer at Intrepid Studios.
As of this moment, none of those individuals have given a solid tangible definition of what "Player driven economy" will mean for Ashes of Creation.
Generally speaking, in the broadest terms from the industry, a player driven economy is an economy in which as many things as possible enter the virtual world after being created by the players. The game that I feel comes closest to a player driven economy is Eve Online, but even Eve is not fully player Driven.
Ships, ammo, Tech II modules, all these things come from the player base. Someone goes out and secures raw materials (via mining or salvaging). Then someone processes those minerals into items.
You need Scourge missiles and nobody for 20 jumps is selling any? Then suck it up butter cup because you are about to go on a 21 jump run to restock on ammo. No NPCs at the stations have ammo to sell you.
Now, Eve is not a totally player driven economy, because there are items that come from drops (Implants, Officer Modules, Faction Ships from Faction Stores) but at the same time, even these things do not totally break the "Player driven economy" mold, they just bend it a little.
Additional, because the virtual world of Eve is constantly re-spawning, you could make the argument that it is not fully player driven because if you wait until after reset, those asteroid belts you farmed clean will have regrown. If you wait long enough more NPCs will respawn and you can kill them and loot them again.
The best example for a player driven economy was the Devilsaur Cartell in WoW Classic. XD
A small group of people controled the spawning devilsaurs for their leather, which was important for every crafted piece of high end leather and chainmail gear. If you came and "stole" their kill they would log into or contact someone from the other faction and kill you.
That way, they controled the prices on the whole server. They were a legitimate mafia ring.
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DevorandomMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@jahlon My only problem with what you said there is that you say the broadest general use of the term player driven economy is "a player driven economy is an economy in which as many things as possible enter the virtual world after being created by the players." when in this thread and others there are plenty of people who think of it in broader terms than that. I just think that the term fairly uses less because there is no real consensus, and I think people should work to use more precise language.
No lootboxes <introduces air drops>
True sandbox experience.
No p2w
It's just how it is, you can't really rely on catchphrases. This or that is what we know, how you want to describe that information with a catch phrase is up to you.
I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
@jahlon My only problem with what you said there is that you say the broadest general use of the term player driven economy is "a player driven economy is an economy in which as many things as possible enter the virtual world after being created by the players." when in this thread and others there are plenty of people who think of it in broader terms than that. I just think that the term fairly uses less because there is no real consensus, and I think people should work to use more precise language.
I 100% agree, and the Player Driven economy question is on my list of the next things to try to get out Steven.
You can claim your definition is standard all you like but that doesn't seem to be the case from this thread and others I have read.
All it takes for an economy to be player driven is that the players are the ones doing the majority of meaningful transactions.
That is just because you do not know what player-driven economy means or what is standard in MMORPGs. People should really play those games before making any weird arguments.
I'll ask again. Is there a set definition as to what player driven economy means? If yes, show us a link or a quote or anything. I searched for a long time last night trying to figure out exactly what it means other than the direct meaning of each individual word mushed together and I was unable to find a set definition that didn't have multiple criteria that could be fulfilled, but didn't necessarily have to.
You act like you're the one in possession of all the knowledge and because we disagree with you, we're somehow uninformed. People are allowed to have opinions that differ from yours.
I have tried to explain, but no one listens. Now there is separated thread about this matter and I have referred there to MMORPG games which has player-driven economy. I have played and/or followed these: Runescape, Albion Online, EvE Online, Gloria Victis, Fractured and Crowfall.
Of course people can have different opinions, but the problem here is that some people do not want to believe me even they do not have any knowledge how player-driven economy works. That is also very frustrating, because I have a good amount of experience from player-driven economies in games. That's why its better, that people go and study by themselfs from other games.
Here we go one more time:
Even player-driven economies have own flavors, still the starting point is the same in all MMORPGs. The game puts raw resources and ingame currency on the world. Players can get these mainly via gathering or killing mobs and creatures. Then these raw resources players can trade, process and/or craft. This way all or at least most items are made/crafted and traded between players. Players also defines selling and buying prices and the game itself won't do anything more than gives players tools and mechanics to do so. In player-driven economy you can NOT get any already crafted items from NPCs, quests, chests, loot drops. So to get gear you need to gather resources and craft your equipment and/or buy from other players. This is the starting point what is standard in MMORPG genre and especially in sandbox games.
Now this is the best what I can do for those who are not familiar with player-driven economies in games. Take it or leave it.
Comments
I completely agree with you
Never said all will do it, I said most. And that's what I've seen in games that let you do everything. It takes away the charm of what Intrepid Studios is trying to make in my opinion. I like what the way they decided to do it.
Because WoW does not fulfill that ^^.
agreed, plus it takes away from the whole MMO part of the game
But is that a set definition on what a player driven economy is, or is it your perception of what it is? I haven't been able to find a set definition as to what it means. Only discussion as to what people consider it to be and what different criteria there are to fulfill being a player driven economy
Here's a link to a discussion I found: https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/79110/define-player-run-economy
This isn't going to be like other games where the Artisan classes are added as an afterthought. They are, first and foremost at the front of what Steven has in mind.
So, when you clear a Raid, the end boss, it may not drop a crafting material. It may be a corpse. You will need an appropriate high level gatherer in order to extra that crafting material from the boss.
If everyone could do every craft, then you'd have a everyone able to do it. Max level PvE Raiders would also have max level Gathering Classes.
In this scenario, the end boss requires someone with Maxed Mining. If you don't have someone with that, then you don't get the crafting item.
If everyone could master every crafting you'd *always* have someone with you that could do it, because its easy to master all of them if you only have to do it on your main.
How many people are going to have different fully geared alts in order to be able to swap between them as needed? Not many.
And that's just a tiny way to put meaning back into the MMO part of MMORPGs
And why everyone keeps saying if everyone can do everything? I have not asked that? Has someone else?
Okay, this seams to be pointless, because too many people does not know what player-driven economy actually means and/or they have not enough experience from sandbox games to understand, that the economy works well without any restrictions and player interactions does not end there either. This works in other games, so it would most certainly work also in AoC for sure.
Now if this artisan system would be a little bit less restrictive, it would give more content to those players who want to focus on lifeskills. This won't take anything away from others and it won't end the economy or need of other players.
I agree with you and I think it is a shame actually. I would like to see, that games would make crafting and all other lifeskills more meaningful and not just some side activities. Of course I understand that combat will always be the biggest part of MMORPGs, but still it would be fresh to see more weight on lifeskills and bring those a little bit closer to combat.
You don't know how much effort and time you will have to sink into one profession to master it, and so you don't know if it is too restrictive to begin with. It could still give more than enough for life skills people.
Also again the WoW economy is literally a "player driven economy" by the definition of the words. Just because you feel that only sand box MMOs can have them doesn't make it true.
Whereas there may have been some confusion in terms of what "player driven economy" actually means, I think the main reason for disagreement is that people are already happy with the current system in place. We don't necessarily come from a place of not having the knowledge about the system but are more so uninterested in seeing a change to the planned one.
Multiple different professions is clearly not same as everything.
It is not the time which is restrictive, its the possibility to choose more than just one path. Some people wants to do more than just one profession for sure.
If you do not know what player-driven economy means, please do not try to make up that definition. I did not say, that only sandbox games has player-driven economy, but it is used a lot in that genre. In WoW players run just the auctionhouse, but the whole economy is driven by NPCs. Auctionhouse is not needed to run the economy, it only helps to sink some gold out of the game and promotes people to interact with each other.
Ashes of Creation will have player-driven economy, and like in many sandbox games, almost all items will be player crafted and traded. You can not buy items from NPCs or get gear pieces from mobs or dungeon bosses. So when all (or almost all) items in game are player crafted and player traded, then the economy is player-driven. That is the starting point for definition of player-driven economy. This is not something I have made up, it is a standard.
Yes everybody understands that you want more than one profession and our response has been it's just against the design philosophy to maximize the interdependence of the playerbase.
In regards to what a player driven economy means I'll throw your words right back at you. There is no commonly agreed on definition as can be seen by this thread and others but by the definition of the words I am correct in saying that WoW is a player driven economy. I will admit I misread what you said about sandbox games but otherwise I would say you are still wrong.
You can claim your definition is standard all you like but that doesn't seem to be the case from this thread and others I have read.
All it takes for an economy to be player driven is that the players are the ones doing the majority of meaningful transactions.
Yes, we know you can be "a jack of all trades, or a master of one (a few)"
Formerly T-Elf
The new forums don't like my quote images but I am sure @jahlon has a citation out there to back this up. They have said that they won't have a system like EVE Plex or WoW Token for just the reasons you would think. It makes gold selling/botting attractive and they are going to have enough problems slapping those who try silly in the beginning. Part of removing that appeal is making it hard as possible to get real money out of the system. Will they be able to block all RMT? No, but they have been aware of the plague since inception and have promised and given peeks at different methods they are planning to stop that activity. Rather than adding those systems after the fact like many have done in a kneejerk reaction, they have designed whole game systems and mechanics around getting the data in real time to combat problems and flare ups. Like so many things here, it is a leap of faith that they will be able to pull it off and many that have been following from the beginning are praying for the Sandaled One to bring balance back to the universe. But we know how that worked out with Anakin.
I don't see why someone that would want to master multiple crafts wouldn't just do it with alternates. Since alts can share freeholds (last I heard) seems like this is a simple work around.
I do like the proposed system, I also love playing solo games where maxing out all skills is a great way to kill time. I can see both sides, I just think IS has found the right path for Ashes.
Also, I don't really think some players would be better suited for Skyrim.
That is just because you do not know what player-driven economy means or what is standard in MMORPGs. People should really play those games before making any weird arguments.
I'll ask again. Is there a set definition as to what player driven economy means? If yes, show us a link or a quote or anything. I searched for a long time last night trying to figure out exactly what it means other than the direct meaning of each individual word mushed together and I was unable to find a set definition that didn't have multiple criteria that could be fulfilled, but didn't necessarily have to.
You act like you're the one in possession of all the knowledge and because we disagree with you, we're somehow uninformed. People are allowed to have opinions that differ from yours.
If you are looking for a set, industry standard definition of what a player driven economy is, you are correct there is none. So some of the people in this thread who stand atop a mountain and say "This is the answer and no other" are actually just as ignorant of what a player driven economy is as anyone else. There are very few terms in the industry that are solid and consistently applied, even terms as simple as Alpha and Beta are inconsistently applied, therefore something as complex as "player driven economy" would fail to have a solid and concrete industry standard.
If we want to start from the simplest of foundations, then we must look all the way back to Plato:
"The only thing I know, is that I know nothing"
Just as I asked Steven the other day about what he means by "action" and "tab", the only way we can know for sure what "Player-driven economy" means for Ashes of Creation is to go by a definition given by Steven of Jeffrey or more accurately Dr. Rocco Scandizzo, (Ph.D. in Economics, MBA Marketing, BA Economics) who was retained to be the Lead Economic Designer at Intrepid Studios.
As of this moment, none of those individuals have given a solid tangible definition of what "Player driven economy" will mean for Ashes of Creation.
Generally speaking, in the broadest terms from the industry, a player driven economy is an economy in which as many things as possible enter the virtual world after being created by the players. The game that I feel comes closest to a player driven economy is Eve Online, but even Eve is not fully player Driven.
Ships, ammo, Tech II modules, all these things come from the player base. Someone goes out and secures raw materials (via mining or salvaging). Then someone processes those minerals into items.
You need Scourge missiles and nobody for 20 jumps is selling any? Then suck it up butter cup because you are about to go on a 21 jump run to restock on ammo. No NPCs at the stations have ammo to sell you.
Now, Eve is not a totally player driven economy, because there are items that come from drops (Implants, Officer Modules, Faction Ships from Faction Stores) but at the same time, even these things do not totally break the "Player driven economy" mold, they just bend it a little.
Additional, because the virtual world of Eve is constantly re-spawning, you could make the argument that it is not fully player driven because if you wait until after reset, those asteroid belts you farmed clean will have regrown. If you wait long enough more NPCs will respawn and you can kill them and loot them again.
A small group of people controled the spawning devilsaurs for their leather, which was important for every crafted piece of high end leather and chainmail gear. If you came and "stole" their kill they would log into or contact someone from the other faction and kill you.
That way, they controled the prices on the whole server. They were a legitimate mafia ring.
True sandbox experience.
No p2w
It's just how it is, you can't really rely on catchphrases. This or that is what we know, how you want to describe that information with a catch phrase is up to you.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
I 100% agree, and the Player Driven economy question is on my list of the next things to try to get out Steven.
I have tried to explain, but no one listens. Now there is separated thread about this matter and I have referred there to MMORPG games which has player-driven economy. I have played and/or followed these: Runescape, Albion Online, EvE Online, Gloria Victis, Fractured and Crowfall.
Of course people can have different opinions, but the problem here is that some people do not want to believe me even they do not have any knowledge how player-driven economy works. That is also very frustrating, because I have a good amount of experience from player-driven economies in games. That's why its better, that people go and study by themselfs from other games.
Here we go one more time:
Even player-driven economies have own flavors, still the starting point is the same in all MMORPGs. The game puts raw resources and ingame currency on the world. Players can get these mainly via gathering or killing mobs and creatures. Then these raw resources players can trade, process and/or craft. This way all or at least most items are made/crafted and traded between players. Players also defines selling and buying prices and the game itself won't do anything more than gives players tools and mechanics to do so. In player-driven economy you can NOT get any already crafted items from NPCs, quests, chests, loot drops. So to get gear you need to gather resources and craft your equipment and/or buy from other players. This is the starting point what is standard in MMORPG genre and especially in sandbox games.
Now this is the best what I can do for those who are not familiar with player-driven economies in games. Take it or leave it.