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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I completely agree with you
Never said all will do it, I said most. And that's what I've seen in games that let you do everything. It takes away the charm of what Intrepid Studios is trying to make in my opinion. I like what the way they decided to do it.
Because WoW does not fulfill that ^^.
agreed, plus it takes away from the whole MMO part of the game
But is that a set definition on what a player driven economy is, or is it your perception of what it is? I haven't been able to find a set definition as to what it means. Only discussion as to what people consider it to be and what different criteria there are to fulfill being a player driven economy
Here's a link to a discussion I found: https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/79110/define-player-run-economy
This isn't going to be like other games where the Artisan classes are added as an afterthought. They are, first and foremost at the front of what Steven has in mind.
So, when you clear a Raid, the end boss, it may not drop a crafting material. It may be a corpse. You will need an appropriate high level gatherer in order to extra that crafting material from the boss.
If everyone could do every craft, then you'd have a everyone able to do it. Max level PvE Raiders would also have max level Gathering Classes.
In this scenario, the end boss requires someone with Maxed Mining. If you don't have someone with that, then you don't get the crafting item.
If everyone could master every crafting you'd *always* have someone with you that could do it, because its easy to master all of them if you only have to do it on your main.
How many people are going to have different fully geared alts in order to be able to swap between them as needed? Not many.
And that's just a tiny way to put meaning back into the MMO part of MMORPGs
And why everyone keeps saying if everyone can do everything? I have not asked that? Has someone else?
Okay, this seams to be pointless, because too many people does not know what player-driven economy actually means and/or they have not enough experience from sandbox games to understand, that the economy works well without any restrictions and player interactions does not end there either. This works in other games, so it would most certainly work also in AoC for sure.
Now if this artisan system would be a little bit less restrictive, it would give more content to those players who want to focus on lifeskills. This won't take anything away from others and it won't end the economy or need of other players.
I agree with you and I think it is a shame actually. I would like to see, that games would make crafting and all other lifeskills more meaningful and not just some side activities. Of course I understand that combat will always be the biggest part of MMORPGs, but still it would be fresh to see more weight on lifeskills and bring those a little bit closer to combat.
You don't know how much effort and time you will have to sink into one profession to master it, and so you don't know if it is too restrictive to begin with. It could still give more than enough for life skills people.
Also again the WoW economy is literally a "player driven economy" by the definition of the words. Just because you feel that only sand box MMOs can have them doesn't make it true.
Whereas there may have been some confusion in terms of what "player driven economy" actually means, I think the main reason for disagreement is that people are already happy with the current system in place. We don't necessarily come from a place of not having the knowledge about the system but are more so uninterested in seeing a change to the planned one.
Multiple different professions is clearly not same as everything.
It is not the time which is restrictive, its the possibility to choose more than just one path. Some people wants to do more than just one profession for sure.
If you do not know what player-driven economy means, please do not try to make up that definition. I did not say, that only sandbox games has player-driven economy, but it is used a lot in that genre. In WoW players run just the auctionhouse, but the whole economy is driven by NPCs. Auctionhouse is not needed to run the economy, it only helps to sink some gold out of the game and promotes people to interact with each other.
Ashes of Creation will have player-driven economy, and like in many sandbox games, almost all items will be player crafted and traded. You can not buy items from NPCs or get gear pieces from mobs or dungeon bosses. So when all (or almost all) items in game are player crafted and player traded, then the economy is player-driven. That is the starting point for definition of player-driven economy. This is not something I have made up, it is a standard.
Yes everybody understands that you want more than one profession and our response has been it's just against the design philosophy to maximize the interdependence of the playerbase.
In regards to what a player driven economy means I'll throw your words right back at you. There is no commonly agreed on definition as can be seen by this thread and others but by the definition of the words I am correct in saying that WoW is a player driven economy. I will admit I misread what you said about sandbox games but otherwise I would say you are still wrong.
You can claim your definition is standard all you like but that doesn't seem to be the case from this thread and others I have read.
All it takes for an economy to be player driven is that the players are the ones doing the majority of meaningful transactions.
Yes, we know you can be "a jack of all trades, or a master of one (a few)"
Formerly T-Elf
The new forums don't like my quote images but I am sure @jahlon has a citation out there to back this up. They have said that they won't have a system like EVE Plex or WoW Token for just the reasons you would think. It makes gold selling/botting attractive and they are going to have enough problems slapping those who try silly in the beginning. Part of removing that appeal is making it hard as possible to get real money out of the system. Will they be able to block all RMT? No, but they have been aware of the plague since inception and have promised and given peeks at different methods they are planning to stop that activity. Rather than adding those systems after the fact like many have done in a kneejerk reaction, they have designed whole game systems and mechanics around getting the data in real time to combat problems and flare ups. Like so many things here, it is a leap of faith that they will be able to pull it off and many that have been following from the beginning are praying for the Sandaled One to bring balance back to the universe. But we know how that worked out with Anakin.
I don't see why someone that would want to master multiple crafts wouldn't just do it with alternates. Since alts can share freeholds (last I heard) seems like this is a simple work around.
I do like the proposed system, I also love playing solo games where maxing out all skills is a great way to kill time. I can see both sides, I just think IS has found the right path for Ashes.
Also, I don't really think some players would be better suited for Skyrim.
That is just because you do not know what player-driven economy means or what is standard in MMORPGs. People should really play those games before making any weird arguments.
I'll ask again. Is there a set definition as to what player driven economy means? If yes, show us a link or a quote or anything. I searched for a long time last night trying to figure out exactly what it means other than the direct meaning of each individual word mushed together and I was unable to find a set definition that didn't have multiple criteria that could be fulfilled, but didn't necessarily have to.
You act like you're the one in possession of all the knowledge and because we disagree with you, we're somehow uninformed. People are allowed to have opinions that differ from yours.
If you are looking for a set, industry standard definition of what a player driven economy is, you are correct there is none. So some of the people in this thread who stand atop a mountain and say "This is the answer and no other" are actually just as ignorant of what a player driven economy is as anyone else. There are very few terms in the industry that are solid and consistently applied, even terms as simple as Alpha and Beta are inconsistently applied, therefore something as complex as "player driven economy" would fail to have a solid and concrete industry standard.
If we want to start from the simplest of foundations, then we must look all the way back to Plato:
"The only thing I know, is that I know nothing"
Just as I asked Steven the other day about what he means by "action" and "tab", the only way we can know for sure what "Player-driven economy" means for Ashes of Creation is to go by a definition given by Steven of Jeffrey or more accurately Dr. Rocco Scandizzo, (Ph.D. in Economics, MBA Marketing, BA Economics) who was retained to be the Lead Economic Designer at Intrepid Studios.
As of this moment, none of those individuals have given a solid tangible definition of what "Player driven economy" will mean for Ashes of Creation.
Generally speaking, in the broadest terms from the industry, a player driven economy is an economy in which as many things as possible enter the virtual world after being created by the players. The game that I feel comes closest to a player driven economy is Eve Online, but even Eve is not fully player Driven.
Ships, ammo, Tech II modules, all these things come from the player base. Someone goes out and secures raw materials (via mining or salvaging). Then someone processes those minerals into items.
You need Scourge missiles and nobody for 20 jumps is selling any? Then suck it up butter cup because you are about to go on a 21 jump run to restock on ammo. No NPCs at the stations have ammo to sell you.
Now, Eve is not a totally player driven economy, because there are items that come from drops (Implants, Officer Modules, Faction Ships from Faction Stores) but at the same time, even these things do not totally break the "Player driven economy" mold, they just bend it a little.
Additional, because the virtual world of Eve is constantly re-spawning, you could make the argument that it is not fully player driven because if you wait until after reset, those asteroid belts you farmed clean will have regrown. If you wait long enough more NPCs will respawn and you can kill them and loot them again.
A small group of people controled the spawning devilsaurs for their leather, which was important for every crafted piece of high end leather and chainmail gear. If you came and "stole" their kill they would log into or contact someone from the other faction and kill you.
That way, they controled the prices on the whole server. They were a legitimate mafia ring.
True sandbox experience.
No p2w
It's just how it is, you can't really rely on catchphrases. This or that is what we know, how you want to describe that information with a catch phrase is up to you.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
I 100% agree, and the Player Driven economy question is on my list of the next things to try to get out Steven.
I have tried to explain, but no one listens. Now there is separated thread about this matter and I have referred there to MMORPG games which has player-driven economy. I have played and/or followed these: Runescape, Albion Online, EvE Online, Gloria Victis, Fractured and Crowfall.
Of course people can have different opinions, but the problem here is that some people do not want to believe me even they do not have any knowledge how player-driven economy works. That is also very frustrating, because I have a good amount of experience from player-driven economies in games. That's why its better, that people go and study by themselfs from other games.
Here we go one more time:
Even player-driven economies have own flavors, still the starting point is the same in all MMORPGs. The game puts raw resources and ingame currency on the world. Players can get these mainly via gathering or killing mobs and creatures. Then these raw resources players can trade, process and/or craft. This way all or at least most items are made/crafted and traded between players. Players also defines selling and buying prices and the game itself won't do anything more than gives players tools and mechanics to do so. In player-driven economy you can NOT get any already crafted items from NPCs, quests, chests, loot drops. So to get gear you need to gather resources and craft your equipment and/or buy from other players. This is the starting point what is standard in MMORPG genre and especially in sandbox games.
Now this is the best what I can do for those who are not familiar with player-driven economies in games. Take it or leave it.