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Lawless zone

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Comments

  • grisugrisu Member
    edited April 2019
    So no answer to the disproven "no respawn in battle royal" I guess it is a battleground after all.

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  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2019
    gemiichan wrote: »
    Karthos wrote: »
    gemiichan wrote: »
    Karthos wrote: »
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    I often see this suggestion thrown around, and the very first thing that comes into my mind is: Why. Why do you want a lawless zone?

    I'll actually answer this truthfully.

    I want to kill people, but I don't want a penalty for it.

    Why? Because I enjoy PvP. And to have a place to play in that way, open world combat where I don't have to worry about corruption would be nice.

    Am I a griefer or PKer? Not particularly, but I do enjoy a good fight, and the fact that we can have a location to go look for one, where other people are doing the same, will promote a better and healthier community.

    Or else I have to find my fights where all the PvE players are, and that always ends up with someone upset.

    Give the PvP it's sandbox, if that's not for you, simply do not go, and enjoy other aspects of the game.

    It's honestly a win/win

    Im not sure how thats a win/win, because this just basically boils down to "Im a PvPer and I want an area strictly dedicated for PvPers to kill without penalty" to which my response would be - Didnt they say they have "arenas" just for that? o.O Why should anyone be locked out of an area just because you want to murder them? I mean if we kept that logic, then wouldnt the PvE focused ppl just say do away with the corruption system all together and make the game areas that are PvE focused restricted?

    I just dont understand the ppl that complain about immersion (not strictly directed at you Karthos!), and how small fashion choices break that, but what to murder ppl in the open world without any repercussions! Isnt that part of the whole experience?

    Simply because PvEers will piss and moan about getting ganked all the time unless there's a place that's set aside specificly to PvP in the open world. Arena is honestly boring, contained and repetitive to me, I much prefer dynamic fighting in the open world.

    Telling me "oh there's Arenas" is like saying "oh we don't have Coke, is Dr Pepper okay?".

    It's close, but not the same thing.

    It's a win/win because we aren't taking or omitting content from the game to constrict a play style, we are adding more to pull even more content into the game.

    These places arent going to stop anything. Because this is the internet and trolls/a**hats thrive here! And arenas arent the only PvP content that is allowed without penalty. So this logic is telling me "We want to PK, even though we say we dont - and even more so in an area where we can do it without getting into trouble or having consequences."

    How exactly will this bringing in more content? :no_mouth:

    It seems more so like you are trying to omit content if this area is labeled lawless and has materials that are required to progress in parts of the game. Especially seeing as there is no "safe" zones so to speak. This logic sounds more so like PvPers pissing and moaning about not being directly allowed to PK without repercussions.

    So you don't like something, therefore it's bad.

    That's all I'm seeing you're saying. I'm not going in logic circles with something so unreasonable.

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  • GemiiChanGemiiChan Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Karthos wrote: »
    gemiichan wrote: »
    Karthos wrote: »
    gemiichan wrote: »
    Karthos wrote: »
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    I often see this suggestion thrown around, and the very first thing that comes into my mind is: Why. Why do you want a lawless zone?

    I'll actually answer this truthfully.

    I want to kill people, but I don't want a penalty for it.

    Why? Because I enjoy PvP. And to have a place to play in that way, open world combat where I don't have to worry about corruption would be nice.

    Am I a griefer or PKer? Not particularly, but I do enjoy a good fight, and the fact that we can have a location to go look for one, where other people are doing the same, will promote a better and healthier community.

    Or else I have to find my fights where all the PvE players are, and that always ends up with someone upset.

    Give the PvP it's sandbox, if that's not for you, simply do not go, and enjoy other aspects of the game.

    It's honestly a win/win

    Im not sure how thats a win/win, because this just basically boils down to "Im a PvPer and I want an area strictly dedicated for PvPers to kill without penalty" to which my response would be - Didnt they say they have "arenas" just for that? o.O Why should anyone be locked out of an area just because you want to murder them? I mean if we kept that logic, then wouldnt the PvE focused ppl just say do away with the corruption system all together and make the game areas that are PvE focused restricted?

    I just dont understand the ppl that complain about immersion (not strictly directed at you Karthos!), and how small fashion choices break that, but what to murder ppl in the open world without any repercussions! Isnt that part of the whole experience?

    Simply because PvEers will piss and moan about getting ganked all the time unless there's a place that's set aside specificly to PvP in the open world. Arena is honestly boring, contained and repetitive to me, I much prefer dynamic fighting in the open world.

    Telling me "oh there's Arenas" is like saying "oh we don't have Coke, is Dr Pepper okay?".

    It's close, but not the same thing.

    It's a win/win because we aren't taking or omitting content from the game to constrict a play style, we are adding more to pull even more content into the game.

    These places arent going to stop anything. Because this is the internet and trolls/a**hats thrive here! And arenas arent the only PvP content that is allowed without penalty. So this logic is telling me "We want to PK, even though we say we dont - and even more so in an area where we can do it without getting into trouble or having consequences."

    How exactly will this bringing in more content? :no_mouth:

    It seems more so like you are trying to omit content if this area is labeled lawless and has materials that are required to progress in parts of the game. Especially seeing as there is no "safe" zones so to speak. This logic sounds more so like PvPers pissing and moaning about not being directly allowed to PK without repercussions.

    So you don't like something, therefore it's bad.

    That's all I'm seeing you're saying. I'm not going in logic circles with something so unreasonable.

    I mean isnt that what youre saying? o.O

    I wasnt trying to go in circles at all, I was honestly curious as too how this logic stance was going to bring in more content.

    Im not saying its bad; I just dont understand the need for it. Especially in a game that isnt focused or centered on random PvP without consequences.

    I mean, you dont have to answer. *shrug* ^^; But thanks for the conversation.
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  • seaberseaber Member, Intrepid Pack
    Grisu wrote: »
    So no answer to the disproven "no respawn in battle royal" I guess it is a battleground after all.

    Not impressed.

    "Battle royal (plural battles royal, also royale[1]) traditionally refers to a fight involving many combatants that is fought until only one fighter remains standing." - First line of wikipedia.

    All of the battle royales I have seen have not had respawning but it seems that is not a requirement. But, 'until only one fighter remains standing' is not what an open world, no death penalties, fight area would entail.
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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Seaber, its an arena. Its a place to PvP with other PvP without penalty. That's an arena. Or anywhere you start PvP and someone fights back.

    @Karthos, one area dedicated to corruption free PvP will not prevent PvE from getting killed when they don't want to fight back.

    You guys literally just want to be allowed to attack people that specifically won't fight back? Brilliant! How clever. Too bad no other game does this.

    The argument for this boils down to "I want to do my thing and not suffer corruption for it." Which you can. All you have to do is find players that fight back. Since there are so many of you I'm not sure what the problem is.

    I love the endless pointless "wouldn't it be awesome if Ashes changed their rules to fit my play style more than others."

    This is great! Waiting for stellar responses! :wink:

    Oh and for sure I don't want this for personal reasons. Because I believe in the PvX pitched and hope the corruption system does work as intended.

    ...but anyone that is arguing for PvP w/o corruption areas is doing the same thing. So...
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  • Magma1997Magma1997 Member
    Wow this comment thread escalated quickly.
  • grisugrisu Member
    And you still keep ignoring that it doesn't have to be until one man remains standing, I duno what's so hard about reading one full comment.
    It was never about defining it as a BR anyway. It was an example. my core question is still how is this any different than a battleground, which you would know if you had read the thread, but yeah.. Have fun being smug without trying to further the discussion. Moving on

    Look up the first line of wikipedia when searching for tank, man sounds like it will be strong in Ashes....context man.. context..
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  • greygoosegreygoose Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    This game will have heaps of PvP content. "Lawless" areas are essentially areas where you can grief without consequences. If PvP is the goal then you want to pit yourself against people that want to fight back, this is encouraged of course. But if you just want to kill someone to steal their materials or for no reason at all then that's griefing and not PvP. PvP is great, griefing is not.
  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    I am not sure if Ashes needs such a lawless PvP zone, but I am not actually against it either. I guess it depends how much there will be daily PvP content available. I am personally concerned that restricted open world PvP, caravans and sieges does not offer enough content for PvP centric players. Or is there more official content planned?

    Like I mentioned, some kind of PvP zone could be good option where players can let some steams out. However, placing unique and/or rare resources inside this zone is most likely bad idea. That would only cater hardcore PvP players over others and that has been something what devs have tried to avoid.

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  • seaberseaber Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited April 2019
    greygoose wrote: »
    This game will have heaps of PvP content. "Lawless" areas are essentially areas where you can grief without consequences. If PvP is the goal then you want to pit yourself against people that want to fight back, this is encouraged of course. But if you just want to kill someone to steal their materials or for no reason at all then that's griefing and not PvP. PvP is great, griefing is not.

    An area for griefing is not what is wanted. An area for pvp is.
    If people lose stuff when they die, they are not going to come back and fight again and currently you lose stuff even if you die as a combatant so there is no way for people to fight in the open world without losing something.
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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Ferryman, more PvP oriented players could play a PvP game. More PvE oriented players could play a PvE game. Players willing to participate in both, and willing to not be exclusive to just one, might prefer a PvX game, like Ashes. Why would Ashes have to cater to one side more than the other if they are pitching a PvX game?
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  • sithiksithik Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If you get griefed in a lawless zone then that your fault for going into the lawless zone. Still i would incentivize a lawless zone as the risk entails the reward. Besides the devs said that resource respawns will be random. In a lawless zone if implemented eventually resources would spawn there.
  • AuronAuron Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I like the idea.

    Can also let mayors of Military Node decide if they want their node to be a lawless zone.
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  • cyanideinsanitycyanideinsanity Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ferryman wrote: »
    However, placing unique and/or rare resources inside this zone is most likely bad idea. That would only cater hardcore PvP players over others and that has been something what devs have tried to avoid.

    I fail to see the problem. I'm neither a pvp buff nor interested in genuinely participating in such a thing but I could see it being an interesting thing. If by chance I was near, wasn't involved in something and had nothing to lose besides gear durability I'd probably do nothing more than just be there and explore, or perhaps accept the inevitable and fight "just because" rather than try to reap the rewards of the place.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @cyaideinsanity all this would do is reward players that want to attack players that dont want to fight back. At least, that's the main reason I see for not doing it.
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  • cyanideinsanitycyanideinsanity Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2019
    Again I really don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to risk being pked, don't go there. There's not much reason to dissuade pkers in that area unlike the rest of the world.

    Like OSRS's revenant caves, its basically "pkers paradise". I had a slayer task there once, and noped the hell on out after taking one step inside.
  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    azathoth wrote: »
    @Ferryman, more PvP oriented players could play a PvP game. More PvE oriented players could play a PvE game. Players willing to participate in both, and willing to not be exclusive to just one, might prefer a PvX game, like Ashes. Why would Ashes have to cater to one side more than the other if they are pitching a PvX game?

    Because Ashes will be a PvX game it will sure have players from 100% PvE to 100% PvP and every possible combination between these two extremes. I have not asked to cater either side more than other and I have no clue from where you got that idea..
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    cyanideinsanity wrote: »
    Again I really don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to risk being pked, don't go there. There's not much reason to dissuade pkers in that area unlike the rest of the world.

    Like OSRS's revenant caves, its basically "pkers paradise". I had a slayer task there once, and noped the hell on out after taking one step inside.

    As I said on the previous page, depending on what is in the lawless zone, it will either become deserted or cause a whole bunch of problems for many people on the server. If you put nothing special in the lawless zone then the place will become deserted, since the common targets for PKers won't have any reason to go there, and so the PKers won't go there either (why go to a place where you have no available targets?). If they put some kind of rare resource that is required for other aspects of the game, you run the risk of bigger guilds taking control of that resource and forcing smaller guilds or lone players to go without that resource, which would destabilise the in-game economy.

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  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    cyanideinsanity wrote: »
    Ferryman wrote: »
    However, placing unique and/or rare resources inside this zone is most likely bad idea. That would only cater hardcore PvP players over others and that has been something what devs have tried to avoid.

    I fail to see the problem. I'm neither a pvp buff nor interested in genuinely participating in such a thing but I could see it being an interesting thing. If by chance I was near, wasn't involved in something and had nothing to lose besides gear durability I'd probably do nothing more than just be there and explore, or perhaps accept the inevitable and fight "just because" rather than try to reap the rewards of the place.

    I have played a lot of Albion Online, which focuses on hardcore PvP and full loot ruleset. I am personally used to live in lawless zones and I would definitely go area like that in Ashes too. However, I try to be here as objective as possible, and I approach this matter from AoC playerbase point of view and what devs have stated earlier. Those who like hc PvP rules are minor part of the whole playerbase. So most of the people do not want to go to lawless PvP area. Now placing unique resources to place like this will exclude a lot of people from these materials. One option of course could be, that these same rare resources could be gathered from very dangerous PvE zone for example. I guess that would be fair solution. But what I have understood, devs have been quite negative and against these kind of lawless PvP zones.
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  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    cyanideinsanity wrote: »
    Again I really don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to risk being pked, don't go there. There's not much reason to dissuade pkers in that area unlike the rest of the world.

    Like OSRS's revenant caves, its basically "pkers paradise". I had a slayer task there once, and noped the hell on out after taking one step inside.

    If they put some kind of rare resource that is required for other aspects of the game, you run the risk of bigger guilds taking control of that resource and forcing smaller guilds or lone players to go without that resource, which would destabilise the in-game economy.

    I have seen this happening in Albion, but I would say this would be even bigger problem in Ashes which is not meant to be hc PvP playground.
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  • seaberseaber Member, Intrepid Pack
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    cyanideinsanity wrote: »
    Again I really don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to risk being pked, don't go there. There's not much reason to dissuade pkers in that area unlike the rest of the world.

    Like OSRS's revenant caves, its basically "pkers paradise". I had a slayer task there once, and noped the hell on out after taking one step inside.

    If you put nothing special in the lawless zone then the place will become deserted, since the common targets for PKers won't have any reason to go there, and so the PKers won't go there either (why go to a place where you have no available targets?).
    What has been asked for is an area with nothing special in it! People want an area for open world pvp where nobody loses anything for dying.
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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Seaber wrote: »
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    cyanideinsanity wrote: »
    Again I really don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to risk being pked, don't go there. There's not much reason to dissuade pkers in that area unlike the rest of the world.

    Like OSRS's revenant caves, its basically "pkers paradise". I had a slayer task there once, and noped the hell on out after taking one step inside.

    If you put nothing special in the lawless zone then the place will become deserted, since the common targets for PKers won't have any reason to go there, and so the PKers won't go there either (why go to a place where you have no available targets?).
    What has been asked for is an area with nothing special in it! People want an area for open world pvp where nobody loses anything for dying.

    So, all that is being asked for is an area where there is no item loss/degradation for PvP?
    I suppose if there were areas where PvE types could fight mobs and not lose anything that would be fair.
    I think it would negate the risk versus reward, and it sounds more like APOC or a BR. I mean if the area is limited in size, it's not really open world, it's just in that area. So it could be an instanced arena or other battlefield type.
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  • seaberseaber Member, Intrepid Pack
    azathoth wrote: »
    Seaber wrote: »
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    cyanideinsanity wrote: »
    Again I really don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to risk being pked, don't go there. There's not much reason to dissuade pkers in that area unlike the rest of the world.

    Like OSRS's revenant caves, its basically "pkers paradise". I had a slayer task there once, and noped the hell on out after taking one step inside.

    If you put nothing special in the lawless zone then the place will become deserted, since the common targets for PKers won't have any reason to go there, and so the PKers won't go there either (why go to a place where you have no available targets?).
    What has been asked for is an area with nothing special in it! People want an area for open world pvp where nobody loses anything for dying.

    So, all that is being asked for is an area where there is no item loss/degradation for PvP?
    I suppose if there were areas where PvE types could fight mobs and not lose anything that would be fair.
    I think it would negate the risk versus reward, and it sounds more like APOC or a BR. I mean if the area is limited in size, it's not really open world, it's just in that area. So it could be an instanced arena or other battlefield type.
    Yes but also no rewards.
    If people want an area where mobs give nothing for killing them but they don't lose exp/durability for dying then sure idc.
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  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It might be worth waiting for the blog post regarding military nodes before continuing this conversation.
    I understand some people's fear that it doesn't feel like there is much a pvp centric player can do outside caravans, sieges, and wars, with the frequency of these events being uncertain but It's hard to tell until we have played the game.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2019
    @azathoth I have that delivery of straw, you may have built enough men out of your stores by this point, you should be out.

    I'm not even sure repeating my point AGAIN to you will do much, but here goes.

    What I originally said was it would be great to have a zone set a side for PVP that's free from the corruption gain. It will give a place for people to PvP. It will not eliminate ganking and lowbie killing, but let's be honest, aside from not having PvP at all, you will never be rid of it. What it will do is provide PvP content, and give PvPer's a place to do what they love, free from the ball and chain of corruption.

    But having a zone dedicated to PvP WILL attracted some of these people away from ganking. It's a good middle ground, it adds game content, and it's not taking anything away.

    Having this zone will provide a location where wanting PVP is assumed. If you don't want to PvP then WHY GO DO THE PVP ZONE?! It's not mandatory you go there. I'm honestly at a loss why you decided to die on this hill, when it obvious doesn't effect you...?

    This is literally the same logic as going to a steak house and ordering a steak, then bitching that you are a vegan.

    @gemiichan
    To answer your question, it's not NEEDED. But neither are raids. Neither is the node system. Neither is having a Bard class.

    It's simply content that would be fun to have.

    The people who want this type of feature are no different from people wanting a location to RP or open world raids. It's simply content we enjoy doing, and would like to see. To tell us our opinion is wrong on this, is like a PvPer telling a Raider that he shouldn't have open world bosses.
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  • FerrymanFerryman Member
    mcstackerson wrote: »
    It might be worth waiting for the blog post regarding military nodes before continuing this conversation.
    I understand some people's fear that it doesn't feel like there is much a pvp centric player can do outside caravans, sieges, and wars, with the frequency of these events being uncertain but It's hard to tell until we have played the game.

    That is actually my personal fear, that there is not enough meaningful PvP content available. And I want to clarify, that I am not asking yet any more content before I know more about this matter.

    Why am I concerned? Possible sieges are not happening daily or maybe not even weekly which ain't much. Corruption system restricts open world PvP a lot and I believe it goals to be really selective with your targets. How often caravans will actually happen and how easy it is to find those? To me this not sound much...

    Actually I have suggested before that there could be somekind of smaller objectives in open world where small/medium scale PvP could happen. These objectives could be towers, quarries, mines etc. which would give controllers some minor buffs.
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2019
    Seaber wrote: »
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    cyanideinsanity wrote: »
    Again I really don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to risk being pked, don't go there. There's not much reason to dissuade pkers in that area unlike the rest of the world.

    Like OSRS's revenant caves, its basically "pkers paradise". I had a slayer task there once, and noped the hell on out after taking one step inside.

    If you put nothing special in the lawless zone then the place will become deserted, since the common targets for PKers won't have any reason to go there, and so the PKers won't go there either (why go to a place where you have no available targets?).
    What has been asked for is an area with nothing special in it! People want an area for open world pvp where nobody loses anything for dying.

    I guarantee that if you put a lawless zone with nothing special in it, that zone will become deserted. Why? Because PKers want victims and if the victims have no reason to go into the lawless zone, then the PKers will have no reason to go there either.

    I've seen it happen in games like Elite Dangerous.
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  • seaberseaber Member, Intrepid Pack
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    Seaber wrote: »
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    cyanideinsanity wrote: »
    Again I really don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to risk being pked, don't go there. There's not much reason to dissuade pkers in that area unlike the rest of the world.

    Like OSRS's revenant caves, its basically "pkers paradise". I had a slayer task there once, and noped the hell on out after taking one step inside.

    If you put nothing special in the lawless zone then the place will become deserted, since the common targets for PKers won't have any reason to go there, and so the PKers won't go there either (why go to a place where you have no available targets?).
    What has been asked for is an area with nothing special in it! People want an area for open world pvp where nobody loses anything for dying.

    I guarantee that if you put a lawless zone with nothing special in it, that zone will become deserted. Why? Because PKers want victims and if the victims have no reason to go into the lawless zone, then the PKers will have no reason to go there either.

    I've seen it happen in games like Elite Dangerous.

    There won't be any 'victims' though. Only PvPers that want to fight other PvPers
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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If only players that want PvP go there, whats the point of it being corruption free?

    Being corruption free only encourages attacking players that don't fight back.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Seaber wrote: »
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    Seaber wrote: »
    wanderingmist wrote: »
    cyanideinsanity wrote: »
    Again I really don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to risk being pked, don't go there. There's not much reason to dissuade pkers in that area unlike the rest of the world.

    Like OSRS's revenant caves, its basically "pkers paradise". I had a slayer task there once, and noped the hell on out after taking one step inside.

    If you put nothing special in the lawless zone then the place will become deserted, since the common targets for PKers won't have any reason to go there, and so the PKers won't go there either (why go to a place where you have no available targets?).
    What has been asked for is an area with nothing special in it! People want an area for open world pvp where nobody loses anything for dying.

    I guarantee that if you put a lawless zone with nothing special in it, that zone will become deserted. Why? Because PKers want victims and if the victims have no reason to go into the lawless zone, then the PKers will have no reason to go there either.

    I've seen it happen in games like Elite Dangerous.

    There won't be any 'victims' though. Only PvPers that want to fight other PvPers

    That is a very naive attitude. There will always be players who take great pleasure in killing people who can't fight back.
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