If you don't want to get griefed in a PvP based game, don't play PvP based games.
Wait. When did this become a pvp based game?
I didnt realise i had signed up for Crowfall with better graphics.
Last i saw this was pvp around caravans and in pvp instances only... at least that was how i read it.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you don't want to get griefed in a PvP based game, don't play PvP based games.
Wait. When did this become a pvp based game?
I didnt realise i had signed up for Crowfall with better graphics.
Last i saw this was pvp around caravans and in pvp instances only... at least that was how i read it.
Ashes has open world PvP
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Solution.... Avoid it. If you know someone is grieving or there is a group in an a area that is grieving others. Just avoid it. It is really simple to do and you are wasting more time by going to that area than just going else where to complete other daily tasks. You can always come back later when the coast is clear.
I never understood why gamers have this stubborn nature of repeatedly going back to finish a quest or task when they know full well that there are not good people there. If there is just one person and you lose. You can either go back and try to win or call for reinforcements. It is your own fault for whatever happens from there.
For those unexpected events of random killings. It is part of the game, you chose to play a game that is open world PvP. You have no reason (except of course for possibly losing stuff) to get angry at the other player, it is the nature of the beast. For those that abuse the system and try to get around it. Report it to the devs and it will most likely get fixed.
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KarthosMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you don't want to get griefed in a PvP based game, don't play PvP based games.
Wait. When did this become a pvp based game?
I didnt realise i had signed up for Crowfall with better graphics.
Last i saw this was pvp around caravans and in pvp instances only... at least that was how i read it.
Often times it is the community that decides what is considered acceptable, not the developers.
Quite True I find, either people wander off or pull together and say No, stop.
If resources are going to be limited, then how can anyone imagine that people won't kill people over them? Camp them? I can quite see a party or guild finding a resource and most of the players harvest and bring it back to town, while someone else sits there and protects their 'claim' ?
It does seem harassment and griefing can come in various forms. It can even become Meta. If as above a group or guild finds a valuable resource but someone else posts about it on discord or wiki or somewhere else, who's harassing who? The group found it first and want to harvest it all, is it their claim? Should they be at fault for wanting to harvest it and protect what they found? Even to the determent of getting corruption? The person that posted about this resource. Are they harassing the group, or just providing intel to others? Does it take a number of instances to declare what harassment is in this case?
If anything I think this will lead to meaningful discussions, rp or otherwise. A group of miners come up that want to harvest, but they don't want to fight, maybe a deal is worked out? Maybe nothing at all.. and the battle is on. Meaningful conflict. The corruption system seems like a good start, but we'll see how it is managed. What about typical damage shields? if a player attacks you and your magical fire shield auto does damage back to them, are you suddenly a combatant? May make players rethink even those auto cast spells. My biggest concern for killing, is spawning. You travel a long distance and suddenly get ganked and get tossed back 8 nodes, without fast travel, it's time and not resources you lose. May make players less likely to explore. I believe a pushing mechanic is already mentioned, so at least blocking doorways and such will be out.
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KaisustrinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
First, let’s distinguish that we are talking about three different things.
1. Player killing - the original post
2. Player inconveniencing - blocking a resource, etc
3. Harassment
I do not think the GM’s should be involved in player inconveniencing. If it was an unintended system, then the development team needs to have a quick update process to rectify the game system. If the system is in the game, the player should be able to use and abuse it. Otherwise, you are left with a situation where you are punishing the more creative player because he thought of something that you did not.
In the case of harassment, I posit that it should be impossible to be harassed purely in game. Harassment is aggressive pressure or intimidation ( which by the way is what this game is built upon...)
You should have enough control over your own experience through ignore and other social interaction functions that a person cannot interact with you if you choose not to let them.
For those you must interact with, such as other guild leaders, you need to have a big enough backbone to be able to defend yourself, and a thick enough flesh to not be offended. But that’s a comment on all of society, not just gamers. #gamersRiseUp
So you're against griefing in the form of killing other players over and over, but you're not against griefing in the form of player inconveniencing, such as blocking resources or pathways?
That is also considered to be a form of griefing. Your title is counterproductive compared to what you're trying to argue. There will always be unintentional systems in games, especially early formats of games, that developers didn't intend and simply didn't see before the final product is launched. Taking advantage of those systems and utilizing them to gain an unfair edge over others, either in the form of player inconveniencing or massive jumps ahead by ignoring certain game mechanics is within the realm of exploits and griefing alike.
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tugowarMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Kaisustrin my title is Clickbait so I can have a lively discussion.
My argument is that player killing is not griefing by definition. There are other kinds of grieving, but not player killing, and they’re pretty limited in nature.
Virtue is the only good.
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well if I want to kill someone everytime I see them it should be ok, but I also have to deal with the corruption that follows.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Kaisustrin my title is Clickbait so I can have a lively discussion.
My argument is that player killing is not griefing by definition. There are other kinds of grieving, but not player killing, and they’re pretty limited in nature.
Of course. Wikipedia has a pretty good article on griefing, and defines it well.
Well if I want to kill someone everytime I see them it should be ok, but I also have to deal with the corruption that follows.
If that's how the game is designed and meant to be playing them you are allowed to do so
Excatly, people might not like getting hunted and killed but the game allows it for a reason, if a player ever got punished for hunting a single player that would be ridiculous.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
These days we can stream/record our gameplay.
If GM moderation seems warranted, we at least have evidence to share for deliberation.
I don't think GM intervention will be much of an issue, to be honest. Perhaps there will be an instance of this occasionally, but that sort of camping will be absurdly difficult and dangerous to pull off.
There are definitely going to be a lot of repeated killings, especially over certain resources. However, corruption should, for the most part, deter the mindless killing of individuals, assuming the "victims" are neither participating in PvP nor contesting desirable resources. After all, the larger the level gap, the more corruption you gain. The better the gear you have, the more you have to lose if you die.
Killing someone repeatedly and consistently usually means there is likely a sizable number(players)/level/gear gap between you. This means you are painting a shiny target on your back for Bounty Hunters and anyone else who might notice you and your "habits". And if you can track someone down and hunt them to that degree, someone can easily do the same for you, or at least to the same person in order to find you.
But the main reason that I don't believe that griefing will be as easy as you might think is that your corruption debuff will just end up stacking too high to keep someone hostage in-game for hours on end like you might do in other games. Despite knowing how obsessive people can be in doing this, I genuinely believe that it just won't be worth the effort.
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OrcLuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2019
Dying isn't the problem. Its having a long term time investment get ruined that's the problem.
I think dungeons will be sweaty experiences because teams fighting over content will have high stakes pvp, and if you're hurt from the last trash mob cycle, you're gonna be sweating bullets.
At that point, its not griefing, its literally some of the best content of the game.
What I absolutely don't want is people somehow finding a way of training mobs through a dungeon and wiping people though. If that sort of thing is possible people will do it, and also avoid the corruption system.
Its not exactly easy to solve that sort of griefing. If someone from an opposing group does it, and they some how drop aggro and the mobs swap onto you, and then their group flags to attack you, you're going to be upset.
This only partially addresses your post, but Lineage 2 handled toxic behavior a really simple way.
If you murder someone without them 'flagging up' you gain karma. The more Karma you have, the higher the chance you drop a piece of armor or weapon when you die.
the larger the disparity in level of the person you unjustly murder, the more karma you get.
Incentives for people to hunt trolls + significant Penalties for significant trolls.
Its a player managed PVP system that still allows complete freedom but with consequences for clearly bad actors.
Well if I want to kill someone everytime I see them it should be ok, but I also have to deal with the corruption that follows.
If that's how the game is designed and meant to be playing them you are allowed to do so
Excatly, people might not like getting hunted and killed but the game allows it for a reason, if a player ever got punished for hunting a single player that would be ridiculous.
This is exactly the attitude that concerns me about this game But, I will continue the fight for what is right. I have some misguided faith in humanity that people still have the ability to respect each other.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well if I want to kill someone everytime I see them it should be ok, but I also have to deal with the corruption that follows.
If that's how the game is designed and meant to be playing them you are allowed to do so
Excatly, people might not like getting hunted and killed but the game allows it for a reason, if a player ever got punished for hunting a single player that would be ridiculous.
This is exactly the attitude that concerns me about this game But, I will continue the fight for what is right. I have some misguided faith in humanity that people still have the ability to respect each other.
The problem with that is the game allows you to kill players but it does have a way to punish you as well but people will always find ways around it
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This only partially addresses your post, but Lineage 2 handled toxic behavior a really simple way.
If you murder someone without them 'flagging up' you gain karma. The more Karma you have, the higher the chance you drop a piece of armor or weapon when you die.
the larger the disparity in level of the person you unjustly murder, the more karma you get.
Incentives for people to hunt trolls + significant Penalties for significant trolls.
Its a player managed PVP system that still allows complete freedom but with consequences for clearly bad actors.
That’s very close to the corruption system in Ashes, though it sounds less harsh. AoC will have stronger penalties.
Comments
Wait. When did this become a pvp based game?
I didnt realise i had signed up for Crowfall with better graphics.
Last i saw this was pvp around caravans and in pvp instances only... at least that was how i read it.
Ashes has open world PvP
I never understood why gamers have this stubborn nature of repeatedly going back to finish a quest or task when they know full well that there are not good people there. If there is just one person and you lose. You can either go back and try to win or call for reinforcements. It is your own fault for whatever happens from there.
For those unexpected events of random killings. It is part of the game, you chose to play a game that is open world PvP. You have no reason (except of course for possibly losing stuff) to get angry at the other player, it is the nature of the beast. For those that abuse the system and try to get around it. Report it to the devs and it will most likely get fixed.
Doh!
If resources are going to be limited, then how can anyone imagine that people won't kill people over them? Camp them? I can quite see a party or guild finding a resource and most of the players harvest and bring it back to town, while someone else sits there and protects their 'claim' ?
It does seem harassment and griefing can come in various forms. It can even become Meta. If as above a group or guild finds a valuable resource but someone else posts about it on discord or wiki or somewhere else, who's harassing who? The group found it first and want to harvest it all, is it their claim? Should they be at fault for wanting to harvest it and protect what they found? Even to the determent of getting corruption? The person that posted about this resource. Are they harassing the group, or just providing intel to others? Does it take a number of instances to declare what harassment is in this case?
If anything I think this will lead to meaningful discussions, rp or otherwise. A group of miners come up that want to harvest, but they don't want to fight, maybe a deal is worked out? Maybe nothing at all.. and the battle is on. Meaningful conflict. The corruption system seems like a good start, but we'll see how it is managed. What about typical damage shields? if a player attacks you and your magical fire shield auto does damage back to them, are you suddenly a combatant? May make players rethink even those auto cast spells. My biggest concern for killing, is spawning. You travel a long distance and suddenly get ganked and get tossed back 8 nodes, without fast travel, it's time and not resources you lose. May make players less likely to explore. I believe a pushing mechanic is already mentioned, so at least blocking doorways and such will be out.
So you're against griefing in the form of killing other players over and over, but you're not against griefing in the form of player inconveniencing, such as blocking resources or pathways?
That is also considered to be a form of griefing. Your title is counterproductive compared to what you're trying to argue. There will always be unintentional systems in games, especially early formats of games, that developers didn't intend and simply didn't see before the final product is launched. Taking advantage of those systems and utilizing them to gain an unfair edge over others, either in the form of player inconveniencing or massive jumps ahead by ignoring certain game mechanics is within the realm of exploits and griefing alike.
My argument is that player killing is not griefing by definition. There are other kinds of grieving, but not player killing, and they’re pretty limited in nature.
Virtue is the only good.
If that's how the game is designed and meant to be playing them you are allowed to do so
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer
The definitions in that article follow with how I’ve always understood the term to be used.
Look over that article, there are many examples of griefing. As you said, simple player killing is not one of them.
Excatly, people might not like getting hunted and killed but the game allows it for a reason, if a player ever got punished for hunting a single player that would be ridiculous.
If GM moderation seems warranted, we at least have evidence to share for deliberation.
There are definitely going to be a lot of repeated killings, especially over certain resources. However, corruption should, for the most part, deter the mindless killing of individuals, assuming the "victims" are neither participating in PvP nor contesting desirable resources. After all, the larger the level gap, the more corruption you gain. The better the gear you have, the more you have to lose if you die.
Killing someone repeatedly and consistently usually means there is likely a sizable number(players)/level/gear gap between you. This means you are painting a shiny target on your back for Bounty Hunters and anyone else who might notice you and your "habits". And if you can track someone down and hunt them to that degree, someone can easily do the same for you, or at least to the same person in order to find you.
But the main reason that I don't believe that griefing will be as easy as you might think is that your corruption debuff will just end up stacking too high to keep someone hostage in-game for hours on end like you might do in other games. Despite knowing how obsessive people can be in doing this, I genuinely believe that it just won't be worth the effort.
I think dungeons will be sweaty experiences because teams fighting over content will have high stakes pvp, and if you're hurt from the last trash mob cycle, you're gonna be sweating bullets.
At that point, its not griefing, its literally some of the best content of the game.
What I absolutely don't want is people somehow finding a way of training mobs through a dungeon and wiping people though. If that sort of thing is possible people will do it, and also avoid the corruption system.
Its not exactly easy to solve that sort of griefing. If someone from an opposing group does it, and they some how drop aggro and the mobs swap onto you, and then their group flags to attack you, you're going to be upset.
If you murder someone without them 'flagging up' you gain karma. The more Karma you have, the higher the chance you drop a piece of armor or weapon when you die.
the larger the disparity in level of the person you unjustly murder, the more karma you get.
Incentives for people to hunt trolls + significant Penalties for significant trolls.
Its a player managed PVP system that still allows complete freedom but with consequences for clearly bad actors.
This is exactly the attitude that concerns me about this game But, I will continue the fight for what is right. I have some misguided faith in humanity that people still have the ability to respect each other.
The problem with that is the game allows you to kill players but it does have a way to punish you as well but people will always find ways around it
That’s very close to the corruption system in Ashes, though it sounds less harsh. AoC will have stronger penalties.
I was thinking the same thing
Because regardless of the fact it's a PvP game, people feel they are entitled to have accommodations made for them.
It's why you see so many "good idea fairies" hovering around, making "suggestions".
who ever could you mean ^^
The one armed man!
I was thinking it was the man with no name
He could have both no name and one arm
perhaps
Clearly missed my point. Don’t feel bad though. Reading comprehension is hard.
Virtue is the only good.