Exploiting bugs

This is bound to happen at some point in Ashes and I'm curious to know how the community and Intrepid stands on this. Should players be punished for exploiting bugs or weaknesses in the system?
«1

Comments

  • fiastosfiastos Member, Settler
    I if they do it repeatedly they might be hit with a 12 hour ban hammer or something. Personally I think it's fair for players that exploit bugs multiple times and don't report them to be punished but if someone accidentally falls of some platform and the boss gets bugged and can't attack anymore, they should not get punished if they don't do it again.
    forumsignature.png

    Heroes of Many Expeditions || EU || Exploration Oriented
    Guild Website || Guild forum post
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Leader of Men
    They have stated a couple times that those found to be exploiting will be investigated and all the regular tools up to and including account permaban will be options.
    south-park-rabble-rabble-rabbl-53b58d315aa49.jpg
  • azathothazathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    If it's not a known exploit and players are doing it because they think it is part of the game, they should not be punished. If players are actively exploiting known bugs that speaks to their character/persona more than anything. Any one investigated and found to exploiting bugs, that is asked to stop, but continues to do so should be permabanned.

    Cheaters suck and cheat because they don't have real skills.
    57597603_387667588743769_477625458809110528_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=16e82247154b84484b7f627c0ac76fca&oe=5D448BDD
    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    azathoth wrote: »
    If it's not a known exploit and players are doing it because they think it is part of the game, they should not be punished. If players are actively exploiting known bugs that speaks to their character/persona more than anything. Any one investigated and found to exploiting bugs, that is asked to stop, but continues to do so should be permabanned.

    Cheaters suck and cheat because they don't have real skills.

    This is a key point. I can completely understand punishing someone for exploiting a bug after being warned about it first, but often game devs will hand out punishments without warning.
  • amuriaamuria Member
    The first discovery of a exploit should be free, trying to reproduce it for a report is also okay, reproducing it further than that is grounds for punishment.

    By that rule being caught using a known exploit should receive punishment too. I would scale the consequence depending on the direct/indirect impact on other people and on how often this has been done, if the person is already known for something like this.

    Where there is punishment there should be rewards too. I would like to see rewards for players finding exploits/bugs and reporting them. Of course, only give out rewards if the report actually helped in finding it.
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    amuria wrote: »
    The first discovery of a exploit should be free, trying to reproduce it for a report is also okay, reproducing it further than that is grounds for punishment.

    By that rule being caught using a known exploit should receive punishment too. I would scale the consequence depending on the direct/indirect impact on other people and on how often this has been done, if the person is already known for something like this.

    Where there is punishment there should be rewards too. I would like to see rewards for players finding exploits/bugs and reporting them. Of course, only give out rewards if the report actually helped in finding it.

    So now we get into the fine line between "clever use of game mechanics" and exploitation. If there is one thing I have learned in my years of gaming it's that players will do anything to gain an advantage, and do things that the devs never thought of.

    Here's an example from WoW. https://clips.twitch.tv/SpinelessAntsyTitanANELE

    Just a little background on this. In WoW mages can steal buffs from enemy casters, and in this dungeon there is a mob that has a damage buff that you can continously stack. By keeping the mob alive and stealing the buff, a mage can put out an insane amount of damage. I'd be willing to bet that Blizzard never intended mages to do that much damage.

    Should players be punished for using this weakness in the game system?
  • leonerdoleonerdo Member, Settler
    In addition to what others have said, I think it depends partially on how much the exploit ruins the intended gameplay. For example, anything that gives a large uncounterable advantage in PvP is obviously a big no-no. But if it's just a geography exploit that lets you get to somewhere you're not supposed to be, I don't think that's problematic on it's own.

    And some exploits (probably uncommon, but they exist) are more like unintended features of gameplay that let you have fun doing something different. Those exploits might even be accepted and made into real features if the devs think they're fun enough to be supported.

    Essentially, the criteria I'm looking at is how much the exploit good gameplay the exploit skips over or removes vs. how much good (but unintended) gameplay it adds.

    I think there's a key exception when part of the game sucks (for example, if there's a grindy part that is waaay too long) and players actively look for exploits to alleviate the problem. In that case, the exploit probably skips a large part of the game, but maybe the game is better for it. And so devs shouldn't punish anyone for it, and instead they should definitely take a long, hard look at why so many people embraced the exploit.

    BUT of course, those kinds of beneficial exploits are probably in the minority. The majority of the time it should be as y'all are saying: the punishment should match the severity and the frequency of the exploitation: Anywhere from 1-day bans for annoying but undamaging exploits, to account rollbacks for brief but significant cheating, to permabans for continued abuse of truly degenerate exploits.
  • amuriaamuria Member
    @wanderingmist Same applies though some common sense should also be used. You on your own guessed this is not intended so it might be an exploit using it means you risk punishment not using it till there is an statement from the devs to it puts you on the safe side.
  • grisugrisu Member
    I think Anthem is a good example to the topic. There was apparently a ...bug... where certain chests in the free roaming world would have a noticeable better droprate then others.
    Anthem didn't make a statement but made it grounds to ban people that made a route of opening the best chests.
    Where does common sense start and where is the border to willfull exploit?
    If there is no statement how would you know that those chests are bugged? You jsut noticed they have a better droprate. Could just be intended design.

    That's my input on the topic, the border cases, because I think we can all agree that dupe bugs of any kind as well as progression skiping things should meet a zero tolerance policy for repeated use.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. Grisu
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. Zekece#1819
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    amuria wrote: »
    @wanderingmist Same applies though some common sense should also be used. You on your own guessed this is not intended so it might be an exploit using it means you risk punishment not using it till there is an statement from the devs to it puts you on the safe side.

    Games developers aren't all-knowing, and often certain game mechanics have unintended consequences that allow players to do things the developers never thought possible. For example, one of the most difficult tricks in Super Mario 64 speedruns is known as "Owless"



    This trick was never intended to be possible but the players found a way to do it. Should they be punished for this?

    Now I would totally understand a ban if the developers warned players about the bug and said that exploiting the bug before it is fixed will be punished, but this very rarely happens. More often than not the devs see a game-breaking bug, panic and immediately issue out punishments instead of communicating with the players.

    The thing that makes all this even worse is that developers don't like to fully explain how their game systems work, which always leaves the players guessing whether things are working as intended or not. The general attitude is that players will carry on as if it was intended until told otherwise. As a lifeguard I see this attitude all the time in the pool. The pool users (particularly the kids) will be constantly pushing the boundaries on what is acceptable behaviour, and when they do something for the first time they will often look towards the lifeguard. If the lifeguard doesn't react to what the kids are doing then they will assume that what they are doing is ok and will carry on doing it.

    Note, they often won't approach the lifeguard and ask if what they are doing is ok, they will simply keep doing it until told to stop. Now imagine if I was lifeguarding and a kid does something that wasn't blatantly against the rules, but pushing the boundaries a little, and I immediately evict them from the pool. Would that be fair? Let me tell you if I did that I would get a lot of very angry parents coming up to me.
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    grisu wrote: »
    I think Anthem is a good example to the topic. There was apparently a ...bug... where certain chests in the free roaming world would have a noticeable better droprate then others.
    Anthem didn't make a statement but made it grounds to ban people that made a route of opening the best chests.
    Where does common sense start and where is the border to willfull exploit?
    If there is no statement how would you know that those chests are bugged? You jsut noticed they have a better droprate. Could just be intended design.

    That's my input on the topic, the border cases, because I think we can all agree that dupe bugs of any kind as well as progression skiping things should meet a zero tolerance policy for repeated use.

    A perfect example. You know the worst thing about it is that when the bug was in the game, players apparently found the game much more enjoyable and rewarding to play. But since this was never intended, the devs quickly fixed the bug.....

    The other problem players encounter is when developers change things in the game without telling the players. This happens in WoW raiding quite a lot where a boss will suddenly do things that it didn't do previously. Without any communication, players don't know if this is intended or a bug.
  • amuriaamuria Member
    @wanderingmist Yes devs aren't all knowing I never claimed this to be the case. I'm nearly sure that every dev also knows this. In my opinion this is also the reason why devs do not explain all their systems fully. Once you know how it works it is much easier to find ways to exploit it.

    Well first of this exploit doesn't affect anyone but the players own experience all it does is devalue his accomplishment for some, so there is no punishment needed.

    If it would be affecting others and the player continued doing it till devs gave out a public warning about this then punishment is either not applied or applied by removal of ill-gotten gains / much less harsh punishment. From then on, the gloves are off.
    In general, to the kids issue I would say ignorance does not protect one from punishment. You will also either anger the people standing behind exploiters or the people opposing them so you will have to deal with angry people anyway.
  • elfelf Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited May 19
    I think early on it was said that those who report bugs would be rewarded. I think rewarding the report of a legitimate bug is the best direction. Also, afterwards, fixing the bug, and if it can't be fixed, then alert the community that this is indeed a bug and not a feature. If it is still repeatedly abused then that's when punishments should be meted out.
    eZC6mjP.gif
    Formerly T-Elf

  • grisugrisu Member
    The Mario video would be such an edge case. I personally wouldn't call it an exploit but a masterfully executed skill. It doesn't use any glitching or coding errors that make your avatar behave weirdly with a positive outcome.
    (leaving aside that it's a single player game and speedrunning has everyone on the same playing field anyway where it's the goal to do this)
    If it gave a compititive advantage over others that is not intended it should be met with an ingame statement and only after that should it be seen as an exploit.
    Anything beyond that just has to be met at a case by case basis. Reseting(fully/partially) the advantage and so on just can't be regulated as a general rule. Imo at least.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. Grisu
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. Zekece#1819
  • megsmegs Member, Royalty
    edited May 20
    I want to talk about people using the given game 'wrong', not people actively 'cheating'.

    People will use 'exploits', not because they're sucky cheaters, but because that's how humans are built.

    Think about it - our brains like spending as little energy on things as possible, so we 'automate' routines to reduce the need for active thought and end up with 'habits' as a result.

    So if there's an easier way to do things, we will. We're just built that way.

    Punishing players for doing this in a game environment therefore, I see as wrong.

    Using natural exploits, so loopholes in the game, rather than actively 'breaking' the game to create those holes shouldn't be penalised.
    Why should players be penalised for a flaw in the system, that they didn't create?

    Other MMO's can spend years trying to 'adjust' or 'nerf' certain classes because one is OP against the next.
    So one class has an advantage over another? Cheaters and exploiters all. Only because it's obvious we don't blame the players then.


    No, I don't believe that people should be blocked or banned because they found another way to play the game than originally intended.

    I also don't believe that those players who find that way, should have to stop using the exploits.

    'Oh, so you paid for the game? You're playing totally within the game and what the system allows? Well, even though IT IS possible, we never intended for it, so YOU are going to lose out'

    No, if that is something that Intrepid doesn't intend, then it should be for intrepid to fix.
    Even asking players to 'Please don't use that exploit', unless it's part of an agreement that the player's sign is wrong.

    'So you've made a mistake, but it's up to me to be aware of it and avoid it? I'll try, but life is life and I might quite innocently forget or be distracted'

    No, how can you tell if someone used an exploit deliberately or not? By automatically assuming that some players are at fault, can only lead to an innocent person getting caught out / losing out.

    No, if a certain class (for example) has a certain exploit, either fix it, let them play it, or close off that loophole straight away by temporarily locking that class whilst you fix your own problem.
    Don't pass the buck onto the players to self regulate, that's not fair on a minority who then use the exploit unwittingly.

    People make discoveries, they find out new and obvious things and solutions just doing something that no-one had ever thought of doing before.

    And once one person has done it, everyone else picks that up, so there WILL be exploits in the game.

    The game will never be played 100% as intended, but only because the players are not mind readers, they don't know the ins and outs of how the system is meant to work, just what they can do with it.

    So Intrepid need to be the ones to lead the loophole filling, and the first step of that is to identify the holes.
    Rewarding folks is one way. Making sure that they are constantly asking / communicating is another.

    So for instance: "We believe the Mage class should work like this.... have you noticed anything that does not fall within our expectations?"
    Or
    "Is there anything within the game that has been a 'happy surprise' when it comes to playing?"

    Then rather than blaming the players, taking responsibility to fix them.


  • muridiousmuridious Member
    It really depends on how severe the exploit would be.

    If for instance you could glitch through the map to kill a boss, or if you can get the boss stuck somewhere. It would be boring, but I guess you can't really stop people from doing it until it's patched. If Intrepid can't reliably punish everyone equally I think they should just leave it.

    If it's something severe like item duplication or an exploit that allows a player to gain currency unfairly in any other way. If the player only did it accidentally and reported it afterwards (without sharing it with the rest of the world) I'd say give them a reward for saving the economy. If that player were to share the exploit, abuse it they should be banned for a very long duration or permanently in my opinion. Same goes for anybody else abusing the exploit.
    Signature.png
    [EU] Hand of Unity | PVX | Semi-Hardcore/Hardcore | Family
    We are still recruiting. Come and have a chat with us at our Discord!
  • amuriaamuria Member
    genna wrote: »
    I want to talk about people using the given game 'wrong', not people actively 'cheating'.
    People will use 'exploits', not because they're sucky cheaters, but because that's how humans are built.
    Think about it - our brains like spending as little energy on things as possible, so we 'automate' routines to reduce the need for active thought and end up with 'habits' as a result.
    So if there's an easier way to do things, we will. We're just built that way.
    Punishing players for doing this in a game environment therefore, I see as wrong.

    Using natural exploits, so loopholes in the game, rather than actively 'breaking' the game to create those holes shouldn't be penalised.
    Why should players be penalised for a flaw in the system, that they didn't create?
    They are not punished for something they didn’t create they are punished for exploiting something which was not intended. Arguing from the point of “we are built this way” just seems to regulate players down to animals, just because humans like to go the easy road you can’t question your actions?
    genna wrote: »
    I also don't believe that those players who find that way, should have to stop using the exploits.
    'Oh, so you paid for the game? You're playing totally within the game and what the system allows? Well, even though IT IS possible, we never intended for it, so YOU are going to lose out'
    No, if that is something that Intrepid doesn't intend, then it should be for intrepid to fix.
    Even asking players to 'Please don't use that exploit', unless it's part of an agreement that the player's sign is wrong.
    Usually I would expect a company to try to fix their bug/loophole. Warning players about it is done so you don’t get yourself into trouble by using it. The system does not allow it anymore since the warning is given out. Sometimes you need to also take the “ill-gotten gains” away because it would simply be unfair to everyone else not using the exploit or crash the market.
    Just because you paid for the game it doesn’t mean that rules can’t be changed. Not only “YOU” are losing out everyone is losing out.
    genna wrote: »
    'So you've made a mistake, but it's up to me to be aware of it and avoid it? I'll try, but life is life and I might quite innocently forget or be distracted'
    No, how can you tell if someone used an exploit deliberately or not? By automatically assuming that some players are at fault, can only lead to an innocent person getting caught out / losing out.
    They warn people about these things because it means less casualties and less work for them to fix. If you decide to “innocently” ignore it, they might “innocently” forget you didn’t have any bad intentions. It works both ways. So, you would rather be locked out of your main character for x amount of time than being warned and self-regulating? It can take a long time till a way is found to fix an error it really isn’t always that easy. Life isn’t fair and there are always casualties.
    genna wrote: »
    The game will never be played 100% as intended, but only because the players are not mind readers, they don't know the ins and outs of how the system is meant to work, just what they can do with it.

    Yes, the game will always have exploits and they are different severities on them too. Sometimes it requires a bit of common sense to see if something is worth worrying about.

    As a final feedback please reconsider using breaks after nearly every sentence. It made your post very hard to read and answer which is why I used some many quotes.
  • ravudharavudha Member
    The main thing for me is that any major advantage/items gained from an exploit or bug are revoked regardless of any punishment/ban time.
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    @amuria I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask a question. What is the difference for the players between a hidden mechanic and an unintended bug? As we know, developers rarely give players all the information about how their game mechanics work, which I'm perfectly fine with to be honest. One of the things I love about games is finding and learning about hidden mechanics that I can incorporate into my gameplay. Examples include snap-shotting dots in WoW, and animation-cancelling found in many MOBA and fighting games.

    These hidden mechanics are part of the base game and can be used by anyone, so do they really give you an unfair advantage? Whether intended or not, that doesn't change how it affects the players until the devs either tell us about it, or fix it. At the end of the day, the devs decide what is intended and what isn't at the drop of a hat. If they suddenly decide that a certain hidden mechanic is an exploit and starts punishing players without warning, does that seem fair to you?
  • amuriaamuria Member
    @wanderingmist Fairly easily, is it too good to be true, then it is probably an exploit. If in doubt ask the dev and find out, it is your account, so it is your responsibility to keep it safe.

    Depending on the result of the issue I think it is fair to punish the person.
    As I had explained earlier punishment should be related to severity of in/direct consequences of the exploit. Duping items = punishment. Canceling animations = less/no punishment depending on how obviously broken it is.

    Since hidden mechanics usually don't have high impact, I wouldn't punish someone for it.
  • grisugrisu Member
    "Not knowing doesn't protect from punishment"
    I don't know if there is an actual phrase for that in english, so rough translation it is.

    It's a phrase we use here to shy away from what Genna seems to be advocating/ arguing for. If it seems wrong you should inform yourself first otherwise you will have to deal with the consequences.

    There are always things that are punished in one region and just frowned upon in others. It's your own responsibility to understand the local rules.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. Grisu
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. Zekece#1819
  • I think the biggest rule of thumb in games when dealing with bugs and exploitation is the question: what’s the exploit?

    (For a better analogy I’ll use me for reference.)
    I was streaming APOC and I found out that you could animation cancel. This was huge as if you did the correct string, you could kill your opponent in a few frames. And with this knowledge I broadcasted it to the world. I let everyone know you could do this trick, that way we’re on even grounds.

    However, I also (mistakenly) found the 100 damage sword of haste trick too. Which had something to do with getting the speed boost from the sword and then switching weapons and then you could deal 100 damage. But this knowledge I decided to keep close lipped and submit to IT and wait while not using it.


    So yah, that’s my little story thingy. Hope it grants a little insight.

    dEbtg6Q.jpg
    He's a phantom | twitch.tv/dphantomtv
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    @dphantomtv I would be very interested to know what Intrepid say about the things you reported. Please keep us updated on it.

    @amuria I don't know, some hidden mechanics have insanely huge consequences. When LoL players found out that you could use the "flash" summoner spell to extend the range of certain abilities it completely changed how the game was played.
  • amuriaamuria Member
    edited May 20
    @wanderingmist Even if it completely changes the game it still is a non-permanent feature which can be removed and the original state should return.
    Exploits which gain items have a higher weight since their consequences are more difficult to fix.
    Of course that is just my view on it.

    Edit: removed ","
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    @amuria "the original state should return" should it?

    https://kotaku.com/for-a-brief-period-anthems-loot-system-was-much-better-1833203183

    Some people would argue against it. At the end of the day though it's up to the devs to decide how their game works, and I personally have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is punishing players without warning, for something that is ultimately the developer's mistake.

  • amuriaamuria Member
    edited May 20
    @wanderingmist I think you misunderstood or misread my post.

    I didn't say the original state should be returned. What I did say was that if the mechanic is removed (which didn't have an influence on economy etc.) the original state of the game before the mechanic was discovered returns.

    The should in that part is because new experiences from the period of the mechanic might lead to new ideas.
    Sorry if I wrote that in a confusing way.
  • karthoskarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    I don't condone exploiting but I do understand there's a grey area when it comes to it.

    For me, there's a difference in gaming between "cheating" and "exploiting". One is breaking game mechanics for gain, while the other is using already broken game mechanics for gain.

    One who chests does so willingly and knowingly, with that as the main goal. Where as one who exploits may take advantage of a situation, not fully knowing what they are doing is breaking the rules (but, they carry likely have some idea).

    Both should be punished, but I feel perma-bans should be saved for those who chest, rather than those who exploit. With the obvious exception of repeat offenders. This should be handled case by case, and a decision made based on several factors. It's why I abhor blanket, or "Zero Tolerance" policies.
    Aq0KG2f.png
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    @amuria ah I see, that makes a lot more sense now. I have to admit I do like it when a developer takes inspiration from the players, turning unintended bugs into features. It's another reason why punishing players for exploiting the game is (in my opinion) a bad idea.
  • atamaatama Member, Braver of Worlds
    grisu wrote: »
    "Not knowing doesn't protect from punishment"
    I don't know if there is an actual phrase for that in english, so rough translation it is.

    Actually, the phrase you want is, “Ignorantia juris non excusat.” That is the original Latin phrase which literally translates to, "ignorance of law excuses no one". That is a legal principle common in many countries. It is also found in the Bible, Leviticus 5:17, "If a person sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though he does not know it, he is guilty and will be held responsible."

    In English the phrase is usually said as, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.”
    U752vHP.png
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    edited May 22
    @Atama I personally don't believe that statement can be applied here. For one thing, laws in the real world are (for the most part) very specific so it's easy to tell if you are breaking them or not. By contrast, a video game's terms of use can be very vague, particularly when it comes to exploits.

    Not only this but the terms of use is worded in such a way that the developers can effectively change the rules whenever they like, no questions asked. The terms of use is so one-sided that it allows the developers complete control over how the game is run.

    If the developer suddenly decides that a certain formally accepted behaviour is now unacceptable, they can hand out punishments without warning. The devs can ban accounts, change the gameplay and the rules, and even shut the game down without giving a reason or any notice at all.
Sign In or Register to comment.