@Atama I personally don't believe that statement can be applied here. For one thing, laws in the real world are (for the most part) very specific so it's easy to tell if you are breaking them or not. By contrast, a video game's terms of use can be very vague, particularly when it comes to exploits.
Not only this but the terms of use is worded in such a way that the developers can effectively change the rules whenever they like, no questions asked. The terms of use is so one-sided that it allows the developers complete control over how the game is run.
If the developer suddenly decides that a certain formally accepted behaviour is now unacceptable, they can hand out punishments without warning. The devs can ban accounts, change the gameplay and the rules, and even shut the game down without giving a reason or any notice at all.
I was literally responding to a post that said they weren’t sure if there was an English version of the phrase. I provided a history of the phrase, going back to Latin and Biblical roots, and discussed how it was used as a legal principle. I also gave the common English phrase. You’re acting like I was saying something about AoC or exploits. I never did.
No. There is no such thing as "exploiting" a bug in a game. If the game has a bug that users can make advantage of it is 100% the developer's fault and it's on them to get rid of this bug as fast as possible. The player is merely playing the game.
Punishing players for making use of something that is part of your game (by definition), it being a bug or not, is always unjust. Even if you do believe you should ban people for this, which is ridiculous, you will never know if the player did it on purpose. There is always the possibility that the player did not realize it was a bug. You WILL ban a lot of completely innocent players.
It's not even fair to punish players that "exploit" a bug after they have been warned. It's still in the game and the temptation is great. Especially when you see other players doing it and getting away with it. It's the equivalent of dropping a 1 million dollar bag in a poor neighborhood with a huge sign that says: "1 MILLION IN CASH HERE. DO NOT TAKE IT. YOU WILL GO TO JAIL". It's too tempting. Honestly, if you don't take care of a bug immediately that has such negative impact on the game, you are asking for it. People want to get ahead in a MMORPG.
Any reasonable game developer would not ban a player for this. It is their own mistake. The best I can think of they can do is take away from their account whatever they got from taking advantage of the bug. That would be the most reasonable. Punishment is not.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Any reasonable game developer would not ban a player for this. It is their own mistake. The best I can think of they can do is take away from their account whatever they got from taking advantage of the bug. That would be the most reasonable. Punishment is not.
Then I guess there’s no such thing as a reasonable game developer.
No. There is no such thing as "exploiting" a bug in a game. If the game has a bug that users can make advantage of it is 100% the developer's fault and it's on them to get rid of this bug as fast as possible. The player is merely playing the game.
Punishing players for making use of something that is part of your game (by definition), it being a bug or not, is always unjust. Even if you do believe you should ban people for this, which is ridiculous, you will never know if the player did it on purpose. There is always the possibility that the player did not realize it was a bug. You WILL ban a lot of completely innocent players.
It's not even fair to punish players that "exploit" a bug after they have been warned. It's still in the game and the temptation is great. Especially when you see other players doing it and getting away with it. It's the equivalent of dropping a 1 million dollar bag in a poor neighborhood with a huge sign that says: "1 MILLION IN CASH HERE. DO NOT TAKE IT. YOU WILL GO TO JAIL". It's too tempting. Honestly, if you don't take care of a bug immediately that has such negative impact on the game, you are asking for it. People want to get ahead in a MMORPG.
Any reasonable game developer would not ban a player for this. It is their own mistake. The best I can think of they can do is take away from their account whatever they got from taking advantage of the bug. That would be the most reasonable. Punishment is not.
This is either the most inane response I've seen yet to this topic, or a heavy cry for not being banned because you're stating you're going to cheat.
Just because the temptation is there, if you've been warned, you shall (and should) face the consequences. Based on your argument, if you go looting the nearby electronics store just because you can break the front window (stupid owner should have made it break proof, right?) you should not get punished/fined/jailed. Go try that out and let me know how that works for you.
If it's accidental, most developers can tell. If you've been told they know about the bug and you then follow up with it, that is exploiting it (exploiting being getting an advantage not available to all).
My take is:
- If you discover/accidentally trigger the bug, and then report it, they should reward that behavior (either provide an incentive, or only remove half the gain if it was monetary).
- If you discover/accidentally benefit from the bug, but don't report it, then they should remove whatever gains you received.
- If you exploit the bug (either before and/or after it has been reported) you should then face some form of punishment.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Depends on how extreme the exploit is and whether the perpetrator(s) know it's considered an exploit.
If it's an obvious or known exploit - expect the devs to lay down the Hammer.
No. There is no such thing as "exploiting" a bug in a game. If the game has a bug that users can make advantage of it is 100% the developer's fault and it's on them to get rid of this bug as fast as possible. The player is merely playing the game.
i will begin by the temptation shit...
"Seeing this lady, with her bikini on this beach... it is so tempting"
I stop there but you clearly understand what i want to point out...
1) finding a bug is ok... and no one should be banned for it
2) reproducing it to do a report is also ok. (sometime i found bug, and couldn't reproduce it. later investigation i discovered i forgot one thing...).
Most of time devs don't give a shit if you didnt exploit and the bug gave you just little bonus.
But spamming it is not ok.
OR ... you share your discovery on general forum to allow all other people to profit about it. It is funny how most of time (all of time?) people abusing a bug don't share information to all player... maybe because they want to be the only one getting stronger with it? But in this case, lets speak about "risk and reward" : your reward is getting a big advantage on other players, the risk is the ban.
i was 2nd degree for sure. a bug, you report it, you don't exploit it.
AND if you know it is a bug, i don't care you are a weak mind unable to resist temptation.
yes devs have to correct it as fast as possible. even more when the bug is big. but it is not so easy. and also you won't do an emergency maintenance each time there is a bug people could abuse.
FFXIV list all bug they fix, the list can be long...
No. There is no such thing as "exploiting" a bug in a game. If the game has a bug that users can make advantage of it is 100% the developer's fault and it's on them to get rid of this bug as fast as possible. The player is merely playing the game.
Punishing players for making use of something that is part of your game (by definition), it being a bug or not, is always unjust. Even if you do believe you should ban people for this, which is ridiculous, you will never know if the player did it on purpose. There is always the possibility that the player did not realize it was a bug. You WILL ban a lot of completely innocent players.
It's not even fair to punish players that "exploit" a bug after they have been warned. It's still in the game and the temptation is great. Especially when you see other players doing it and getting away with it. It's the equivalent of dropping a 1 million dollar bag in a poor neighborhood with a huge sign that says: "1 MILLION IN CASH HERE. DO NOT TAKE IT. YOU WILL GO TO JAIL". It's too tempting. Honestly, if you don't take care of a bug immediately that has such negative impact on the game, you are asking for it. People want to get ahead in a MMORPG.
Any reasonable game developer would not ban a player for this. It is their own mistake. The best I can think of they can do is take away from their account whatever they got from taking advantage of the bug. That would be the most reasonable. Punishment is not.
If someone happens upon an repeatedly click for effectively infinite xp and actually make us of it they deserve to be banned. Devs being lenient on exploiters leads to wrist slaps for everyone breaking the rules. Just look at RS3. Years ago there was a bug allowing for infinite redemption of an minigame currency for xp. Players abused it and were met with permabans.
Now? You can exploit a bug that allows you to skip to dungeons and head straight to the end bosses and inject tons of money into the game and get a 2 week ban. You don't want the abusers feeling hurt, but what about the legitimate players? Why should they even play if people are effectively free to break the game and suffer no genuine consequence? "its too tempting". Yeah so is botting. Devs should not let bug abusers be free to ruin legitimate players' fun.
Being lenient on punishment just gives people the thought "yeah I could probably get away with it too".
If it's not a known exploit and players are doing it because they think it is part of the game, they should not be punished. If players are actively exploiting known bugs that speaks to their character/persona more than anything. Any one investigated and found to exploiting bugs, that is asked to stop, but continues to do so should be permabanned.
Cheaters suck and cheat because they don't have real skills.
perma sounds a little on the heavy side, but yes i agree with everything besides that.
This is bound to happen at some point in Ashes and I'm curious to know how the community and Intrepid stands on this. Should players be punished for exploiting bugs or weaknesses in the system?
If something is exploited for a purpose, then yes.
That means you exploit it as in multiple occasions, not a one timer by accident.
It's case by case. How clear was it that it was an exploit? How much did it affect the game as a whole (economy, the player experience etc)? And how much was it abused?
In most cases it's pretty clear whether it's intended or not. If you're unsure then just report it, no harm done. If it's an obvious case of exploit abuse then a ban should be in place.
This is bound to happen at some point in Ashes and I'm curious to know how the community and Intrepid stands on this. Should players be punished for exploiting bugs or weaknesses in the system?
I think context is important.
Is the game launched and the exploit harming the integrity of it? It's one thing if you accidently stumble upon it and immediately tell the devs, it's another to purposefully profit from it. In the latter case a temp ban w/ increasing punishments for repeated offenses sounds fair.
If we're talking the current speed buff bug; ATM it's really the only reliable way to get from place to place b/c there's not really enough testers or content. Once you've run out of quest (which is pretty easy considering how many of them are broken) you've not got much else to do besides run around to each world boss. In this case I feel it's less cheating b/c literally anyone can do it and it doesn't really hurt anything.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
During the alphas, go for it and explore the boundaries of the exploit as long as you're reporting it all along the way, and not seriously hurting the testing experience of others and the game in general.
For release, banhammer the shit out of people who exploit. That "philosophy" Twinsen is adhering to is a really messed up take, IMO, and it will seriously hurt the game. Sure, err on the side of caution when it comes to the permabans. However, for the obvious stuff like the current buff-stacking exploit we see in the game currently, where people are zooming around with super high stats: Permaban, no exceptions. Again, this is ok in the alpha test within reason, especially with pvp turned off. For release, insta-permaban IMO.
During the alphas, go for it and explore the boundaries of the exploit as long as you're reporting it all along the way, and not seriously hurting the testing experience of others and the game in general.
For release, banhammer the shit out of people who exploit. That "philosophy" Twinsen is adhering to is a really messed up take, IMO, and it will seriously hurt the game. Sure, err on the side of caution when it comes to the permabans. However, for the obvious stuff like the current buff-stacking exploit we see in the game currently, where people are zooming around with super high stats: Permaban, no exceptions. Again, this is ok in the alpha test within reason, especially with pvp turned off. For release, insta-permaban IMO.
I completely agree, point for point. Best thing you can do is help the devs document exploits for the sake of making the game better.
Taking advantage for some paltry gain earns a permaban. I find it surprising how little some folks value their honor.
This is bound to happen at some point in Ashes and I'm curious to know how the community and Intrepid stands on this. Should players be punished for exploiting bugs or weaknesses in the system?
[OOC]You are questioning if a paying subscribed customer should be punished for discovering and taking advantage of his enviroment? If anyone should be punished it would be the who ever was responisble for not finding and fixing the issue to begin with. [/OOC]
As I explore my enviroment I am fulling prepared to take advantage of what this world will offer.
[OCC]one of the fun things and something that sticks out to me in my gaming career that keeps the memory of a game alive is the little things, like an exploit in the game being found by players and being incorporated in the game... it is actually one of the ways games evolve. For Example...
Starsiege Tribes had an exploit that became a staple of the fast paced game play... No one should be punished for exploiting... it is the Devs job/game to fix bugs and exploits as they arise. They are the world makers. This is why we pay to play... [/OCC]
So sow your seeds of hatred and oppresion but know my name Daewulf and know I that am fiorever watching from the shadows...
[OOC] EDIT; Now Cheaters...the people altering the game via mods and cheats can BURN IN HELL! Unlless the Devs allow modding then it is acceptable and is another way a game can evolve... For example Quake was my first experience making skins and modifying the User Interface aka UI and the enviroment... custom maps and what not. Great memories... any way back to you Fred [/OOC]
@Wandering Mist I don't believe the clip you shared is actually an exploitation. I applaud those players for being able to heal through the damage while taking advantage of the ability to spell steal a buff from that mob. This would fall directly on the development team to design the mob/dungeon differently if this was not the original intention for the dungeon.
As for my take on the original question, players should be punished if they KNOW they are exploiting a bug. Assuming the game was launched and this was still a thing, players making a new character just to sell the starting items and trade it to a friend would be an exploitable bug that should result in harsh punishment after being warned (or possibly a short ban along with a verbal warning to stop). Getting to a boss and glitching it into a wall to solo it = ban. Getting under the ground and killing players without them knowing where you are = ban. Glitching through walls in town to go in/out of buildings = warning/punishment. Everything should be looked at case by case.
It's pretty simple to come up with a "fair" method of punishment for players taking advantage of or using bugs to be honest.
@Twinsen your idea of self control is very diminished.
Just realized this is a post from 2019 but I am not about to waste the time spent to write this out haha.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Khronus the WoW Mage example is a tough one, and really it's up to the developers to decide if it's a hidden intended mechanic, or an exploitable bug. The players won't know which one it is until the developers tell them, either with an announcement or when the devs just start banning players for it like we've seen in games like Anthem.
Blizzard in all honesty have had a rocky history with this kind of thing, with lots of variety on how they handle exploits. For example, the Mage example didn't result in any kind of punishments from what I can tell, even though it was shown off at the Mythic Dungeon Invitation tournament. But there have been other occasions where players were punished for similar exploits, like when the Ensidia guild got a 72 hour ban and their world first Lich King 25 HC kill taken from them for exploiting a bug that made the fight a lot easier.
@Wandering Mist understandable based on their rocky history of decision making. I can see a thin line between "exploiting" groups of mobs to make getting to a boss faster vs exploiting a boss to make the fight easier. I can accept a player taking advantage of anything that is in the game already (like with that mob that had an ability to steal). I don't see refusing to kill a mob an exploit personally. It is ultimately up to devs of course.
This is where every instance of exploitation should be treated fairly. Did the player think they were legitimately beating the system with a cool technique that nobody has found yet, or were they breaking the system with a bug that an average player would recognize as "not intended". A healthy/positive relationship between Intrepid and its player base should be promoted as often as possible and I firmly believe the transparency will continue as the game is developed further.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Wandering Mist understandable based on their rocky history of decision making. I can see a thin line between "exploiting" groups of mobs to make getting to a boss faster vs exploiting a boss to make the fight easier. I can accept a player taking advantage of anything that is in the game already (like with that mob that had an ability to steal). I don't see refusing to kill a mob an exploit personally. It is ultimately up to devs of course.
This is where every instance of exploitation should be treated fairly. Did the player think they were legitimately beating the system with a cool technique that nobody has found yet, or were they breaking the system with a bug that an average player would recognize as "not intended". A healthy/positive relationship between Intrepid and its player base should be promoted as often as possible and I firmly believe the transparency will continue as the game is developed further.
In my opinion it is up to the developers to tell the players what is and isn't acceptable or intended. Yes, some things are obvious, like giving yourself infinite money or rare items, but other things, like abusable boss mechanics, aren't so clear.
If a developer, the moment a bug is reported, comes out and says "we are aware of this bug and are working on fixing it. Anyone abusing it will face repercussions", then the players have no excuse for exploiting. As it stands, this rare happens, with developers choosing to go straight to punishments without the communication first. That, to me, is wrong.
Comments
I was literally responding to a post that said they weren’t sure if there was an English version of the phrase. I provided a history of the phrase, going back to Latin and Biblical roots, and discussed how it was used as a legal principle. I also gave the common English phrase. You’re acting like I was saying something about AoC or exploits. I never did.
The more you know.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
Punishing players for making use of something that is part of your game (by definition), it being a bug or not, is always unjust. Even if you do believe you should ban people for this, which is ridiculous, you will never know if the player did it on purpose. There is always the possibility that the player did not realize it was a bug. You WILL ban a lot of completely innocent players.
It's not even fair to punish players that "exploit" a bug after they have been warned. It's still in the game and the temptation is great. Especially when you see other players doing it and getting away with it. It's the equivalent of dropping a 1 million dollar bag in a poor neighborhood with a huge sign that says: "1 MILLION IN CASH HERE. DO NOT TAKE IT. YOU WILL GO TO JAIL". It's too tempting. Honestly, if you don't take care of a bug immediately that has such negative impact on the game, you are asking for it. People want to get ahead in a MMORPG.
Any reasonable game developer would not ban a player for this. It is their own mistake. The best I can think of they can do is take away from their account whatever they got from taking advantage of the bug. That would be the most reasonable. Punishment is not.
Then I guess there’s no such thing as a reasonable game developer.
Enjoy your future ban, cheater!
This is either the most inane response I've seen yet to this topic, or a heavy cry for not being banned because you're stating you're going to cheat.
Just because the temptation is there, if you've been warned, you shall (and should) face the consequences. Based on your argument, if you go looting the nearby electronics store just because you can break the front window (stupid owner should have made it break proof, right?) you should not get punished/fined/jailed. Go try that out and let me know how that works for you.
If it's accidental, most developers can tell. If you've been told they know about the bug and you then follow up with it, that is exploiting it (exploiting being getting an advantage not available to all).
My take is:
- If you discover/accidentally trigger the bug, and then report it, they should reward that behavior (either provide an incentive, or only remove half the gain if it was monetary).
- If you discover/accidentally benefit from the bug, but don't report it, then they should remove whatever gains you received.
- If you exploit the bug (either before and/or after it has been reported) you should then face some form of punishment.
If it's an obvious or known exploit - expect the devs to lay down the Hammer.
i will begin by the temptation shit...
"Seeing this lady, with her bikini on this beach... it is so tempting"
I stop there but you clearly understand what i want to point out...
1) finding a bug is ok... and no one should be banned for it
2) reproducing it to do a report is also ok. (sometime i found bug, and couldn't reproduce it. later investigation i discovered i forgot one thing...).
Most of time devs don't give a shit if you didnt exploit and the bug gave you just little bonus.
But spamming it is not ok.
OR ... you share your discovery on general forum to allow all other people to profit about it. It is funny how most of time (all of time?) people abusing a bug don't share information to all player... maybe because they want to be the only one getting stronger with it? But in this case, lets speak about "risk and reward" : your reward is getting a big advantage on other players, the risk is the ban.
i was 2nd degree for sure. a bug, you report it, you don't exploit it.
AND if you know it is a bug, i don't care you are a weak mind unable to resist temptation.
yes devs have to correct it as fast as possible. even more when the bug is big. but it is not so easy. and also you won't do an emergency maintenance each time there is a bug people could abuse.
FFXIV list all bug they fix, the list can be long...
If someone happens upon an repeatedly click for effectively infinite xp and actually make us of it they deserve to be banned. Devs being lenient on exploiters leads to wrist slaps for everyone breaking the rules. Just look at RS3. Years ago there was a bug allowing for infinite redemption of an minigame currency for xp. Players abused it and were met with permabans.
Now? You can exploit a bug that allows you to skip to dungeons and head straight to the end bosses and inject tons of money into the game and get a 2 week ban. You don't want the abusers feeling hurt, but what about the legitimate players? Why should they even play if people are effectively free to break the game and suffer no genuine consequence? "its too tempting". Yeah so is botting. Devs should not let bug abusers be free to ruin legitimate players' fun.
Being lenient on punishment just gives people the thought "yeah I could probably get away with it too".
perma sounds a little on the heavy side, but yes i agree with everything besides that.
If something is exploited for a purpose, then yes.
That means you exploit it as in multiple occasions, not a one timer by accident.
In most cases it's pretty clear whether it's intended or not. If you're unsure then just report it, no harm done. If it's an obvious case of exploit abuse then a ban should be in place.
I think context is important.
Is the game launched and the exploit harming the integrity of it? It's one thing if you accidently stumble upon it and immediately tell the devs, it's another to purposefully profit from it. In the latter case a temp ban w/ increasing punishments for repeated offenses sounds fair.
If we're talking the current speed buff bug; ATM it's really the only reliable way to get from place to place b/c there's not really enough testers or content. Once you've run out of quest (which is pretty easy considering how many of them are broken) you've not got much else to do besides run around to each world boss. In this case I feel it's less cheating b/c literally anyone can do it and it doesn't really hurt anything.
For release, banhammer the shit out of people who exploit. That "philosophy" Twinsen is adhering to is a really messed up take, IMO, and it will seriously hurt the game. Sure, err on the side of caution when it comes to the permabans. However, for the obvious stuff like the current buff-stacking exploit we see in the game currently, where people are zooming around with super high stats: Permaban, no exceptions. Again, this is ok in the alpha test within reason, especially with pvp turned off. For release, insta-permaban IMO.
I completely agree, point for point. Best thing you can do is help the devs document exploits for the sake of making the game better.
Taking advantage for some paltry gain earns a permaban. I find it surprising how little some folks value their honor.
[OOC]You are questioning if a paying subscribed customer should be punished for discovering and taking advantage of his enviroment? If anyone should be punished it would be the who ever was responisble for not finding and fixing the issue to begin with. [/OOC]
As I explore my enviroment I am fulling prepared to take advantage of what this world will offer.
[OCC]one of the fun things and something that sticks out to me in my gaming career that keeps the memory of a game alive is the little things, like an exploit in the game being found by players and being incorporated in the game... it is actually one of the ways games evolve. For Example...
Starsiege Tribes had an exploit that became a staple of the fast paced game play... No one should be punished for exploiting... it is the Devs job/game to fix bugs and exploits as they arise. They are the world makers. This is why we pay to play... [/OCC]
So sow your seeds of hatred and oppresion but know my name Daewulf and know I that am fiorever watching from the shadows...
[OOC] EDIT; Now Cheaters...the people altering the game via mods and cheats can BURN IN HELL! Unlless the Devs allow modding then it is acceptable and is another way a game can evolve... For example Quake was my first experience making skins and modifying the User Interface aka UI and the enviroment... custom maps and what not. Great memories... any way back to you Fred [/OOC]
As for my take on the original question, players should be punished if they KNOW they are exploiting a bug. Assuming the game was launched and this was still a thing, players making a new character just to sell the starting items and trade it to a friend would be an exploitable bug that should result in harsh punishment after being warned (or possibly a short ban along with a verbal warning to stop). Getting to a boss and glitching it into a wall to solo it = ban. Getting under the ground and killing players without them knowing where you are = ban. Glitching through walls in town to go in/out of buildings = warning/punishment. Everything should be looked at case by case.
It's pretty simple to come up with a "fair" method of punishment for players taking advantage of or using bugs to be honest.
@Twinsen your idea of self control is very diminished.
Just realized this is a post from 2019 but I am not about to waste the time spent to write this out haha.
Blizzard in all honesty have had a rocky history with this kind of thing, with lots of variety on how they handle exploits. For example, the Mage example didn't result in any kind of punishments from what I can tell, even though it was shown off at the Mythic Dungeon Invitation tournament. But there have been other occasions where players were punished for similar exploits, like when the Ensidia guild got a 72 hour ban and their world first Lich King 25 HC kill taken from them for exploiting a bug that made the fight a lot easier.
This is where every instance of exploitation should be treated fairly. Did the player think they were legitimately beating the system with a cool technique that nobody has found yet, or were they breaking the system with a bug that an average player would recognize as "not intended". A healthy/positive relationship between Intrepid and its player base should be promoted as often as possible and I firmly believe the transparency will continue as the game is developed further.
In my opinion it is up to the developers to tell the players what is and isn't acceptable or intended. Yes, some things are obvious, like giving yourself infinite money or rare items, but other things, like abusable boss mechanics, aren't so clear.
If a developer, the moment a bug is reported, comes out and says "we are aware of this bug and are working on fixing it. Anyone abusing it will face repercussions", then the players have no excuse for exploiting. As it stands, this rare happens, with developers choosing to go straight to punishments without the communication first. That, to me, is wrong.