Dev Discussion #4 - Share Your MMO Experience

24

Comments

  • elfelf Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 4
    Worst: When Real Money Transactions were introduced to MMOs. What I predicted would happen, did.
    Tried out some PvP servers and was killed repeatedly over and over at spawn point.
    In Star Trek Online, when planet hopping and the "planet" was only a few buildings, and all the planets were about the same.

    Best: When as a guild we did guild quests and runs in DAoC. Was in a terrific guild for a quite a while.
    eZC6mjP.gif
    Formerly T-Elf

  • neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited June 4
    Worst: looking at a fully discovered world map, waiting for raids to be re-set, not having anything to do other than the daily quest chores that almost demanded that I have fun doing them.

    Best: unlocking new raid content and trying to come up with strategies on how to deal with mechanics and to best prepare for the fights given the guild resources, class comp and all.
  • dakar1425dakar1425 Member
    Best experiences in MMO's that I have had all boil down to unique artistic styles. Any time I play a MMO and it has that Korean copy\paste feel to the graphics, I lose interest almost immediately. I lasted a little while in Black Desert and ArchAge, but eventually grew tired of the same art look that Lineage had. Wow, ESO, FF14, and City of Heroes all had unique art styles coupled with great stories\quests that kept me engaged where as EQ2, the slew Korean MMOs, and Guild Wars 1 just didn't have that charisma to the art.

    Worst experience would have to be the in-game stores that are present in things like SW:The Old Republic, Neverwinter, WoW (not to the extent to the former's), and EverQuest 2. They are immersive breaking and I end up feeling like they focus more on the store than they do the game.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    sarevok wrote: »
    Black Desert Online - graphics, combat mechanics and depth of the world.
    ArcheAge - Class options, trading, boats, naval battles and OWPvP. Crafting to an extent (just remove the RNG).
    WoW - Battlegrounds, dungeons, raids and linear progression for gear (until the next expansion made everything obsolete) and Honor used to purchase gear.
    Rift - Public Events (rifts) and class combos.
    Warhammer Online - dark/gothic areas that gave you a sense of dread and made tanks viable in PvP (body block).
    DAoC - castle sieges, relic sieges and their battlegrounds. Realm Ranks. Weapon strengths and weaknesses vs certain armor types.
    GW2 - Being able to play with your friends regardless of your level or theirs. Down scaling players to meet a standard for an area. WvW and sPvP.
    I have to agree completely with this list, though I'd like to add a few things to it.

    Archeage's public events (GR,CR, MM, Halcy and a few added later) were reasonably good. They wwre a bit too frequent imo, but they were almost always reasonably enjoyable. Archeages materials producing system was superb, other than the fact that all land ownership was clustered.

    Rift, at least at launch, had a good series of raid instances for different sizes of raids. I don't know if they kept that going, but at launch it was good. The exploration rewards they had was also a very good idea.

    EQ2 imo had the best combat system of any MMO I've ever played. It is the only game I've ever seen where a raid fighting a giant stick with a million HP would still be enjoyable (not that they actually had this). The encounters the game had were also enjoyable, but nothing beats an actual enjoyable, deep combat system with which to use against an enjoyable encounter.

    EQ2 also had a collection quest system that was borderline addictive
  • deadmidgetdeadmidget Member, Braver of Worlds
    Best and worst MMO experiences are with World of Warcraft.

    WoW was the first game that PULLED me into the gaming world and made me chase that gaming high for years. Being in high school getting home knowing I was about to skip out on my homework because WoW maintenance was today and there was new stuff to check out and just have a good ass time with my guild.

    Later in the years honestly around MoP and WoD the game was losing it's magic. Going between guilds just killing bosses and leaving when a better guild invited me etc. The game didn't have the same meaning as it did for before and that continued even to this day with their newest expansion being fun for a week and then turns into a grind just for a warforged upgrade or a socket upgrade on the same gear I already had.

    World of Warcraft is constantly being used for new MMO's as the comparison. Why? Because WoW did the MMO amazingly but not for its crazy interactive gameplay or its insane graphics. It was simple, meaningful work and meaningful relationships built within the game. It was hard back in the day. Tons of grinding just to hit max level day in and day out. But the thing that held it all together was the community. Spending an hour trying to get a group together for a dungeon then running over there. Oh no the tank has never done the dungeon and does not know how to talk well. Instead of kicking and getting a new one you taught them how to do it gave them tips and made an impact on that person.

    Long story short the thing that makes games isn't the best gameplay or the best graphics or the best rewards. Its the games that make YOU feel like you achieved something inside and the memories you shared with others.

  • damoklesdamokles Member
    My worst experience in an MMORPG was:
    When i got a titanforged equipment from my weekly chest for doing dungeons thag was better then my mythic gear piece,
    When I got told in Guild Wars 2 that i needed full ascended gear to raid so that i would recieve ascended gear there,
    When I came back to Guild Wars 1 after two months and found that the guild that i created, that i funded on my own and left in the hands of my ingame friend, was totally deserted and I was the only one left there in my fully equipped guild hall (a king in a kingdom of ashes),
    When I roled on equipment and won, but the raid leader gave it to his friend who was really bad and told us that he deserved it more,
    When my best friend backstabbed me for a better guild (it was the best raiding guild on our server and we both wanted to join them, after they told us that they only had enough space for one of us he told me that we should both go look for another guild, i told them that i would look for another guild and learned the next day that he joined them...)

    My best experience was:
    My gladiator in AION when i reached level 10 and could do all these cool combo attacks,
    In Guild Wars 1 the combined class system where i played an derwish/assassin and was the bane of all mages,
    In Guild Wars 2 when I completed my first jump and run puzzle right at the start of the release,
    In Guild Wars 2 when I completed my first legendary on my own (Chuka and Champawa, an legendary Shortbow that shoots spectral tigers)
    In WoW when I crafted my first legendary (Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker) with the help of my guild,
    In WoW when the guild tgat i created killed Yog'Saron for the first time without any of the NPC buffs/When we cleared our first mythic raid,
    In Path of Exile when i got my first really good drop that supported my max build (bleed gladiator with earthquake)
    4vIAwsd.gif
  • damoklesdamokles Member
    Infinia wrote: »
    My most disliked experience in any MMORPG is the inability to create younger characters. :s

    So you want to creat a child soldier and want him to fight against dragons? (Look into Chronicles of Elyria, they have a rebirth system where you start young and grow older over time)
    4vIAwsd.gif
  • shkevishkevi Member, Leader of Men
    Best was being nr1 pvper having nr1 pvp team and being in nr1 guild for over 3 years on Perfect World International, a select few people dominated that game since ages and i was honoured to be part of them

    Worst was on that same game because even tho it is 15 years old and had a smaller community with alot of p2w, the devs use this game to get as much money out of it as they can. Releasing a best in slot item every month or so that costed alot xd i quited sold my account just in time. Used the money to buy a new car and went on 3 week vacation to finally enjoy irl so that shows how p2w that game really was lmFao... some did literally spend over 500k USD/Euro over the years no joke
  • Best MMO experiences (in no particular order):
    * Organising a real-life meetup in Vegas with my Everquest guild with people from all over the world who hadn't met each other IRL before, showing up at the meeting point and realising we didn't even know each other's real names so we had to introduce ourselves by our character names !
    * End-game raiding in Everquest, SWTOR, Rift & WOW, a great group of people who stuck by each other, learned together and ultimately triumphed together through game after game.
    * Finding gems of Quality of Life features in MMO's that you never expected to have such levels of maturity such as Lord of the Rings Online, FFXIV, ESO, Dungeons & Dragons Online, etc
    * The variety of ways different MMO's handled classes & specs eg ability for mages & rogues to be tanks & healers in Rift (Best. Thing. Evah.), changing weapon changed your class AND level in FFXIV, etc.
    * Doing the "impossible", eg tanking all instances in vanilla wow with a warlock, duoing Plane of Knowledge in Everquest with an enchanter friend, soloing Reaper Mode with my monk in DDO

    Worst experiences in an MMO
    * Trying to organise raids for groups & guilds that didn't fit the exact number mandated by fixed size raid structures, and it degenerating into "A Team / B Team" divisiveness & chaos.
    * In Wow having more and more of the interesting complexities of builds erode over the years watching the game you loved become so 1 dimensional that you couldn't stand to play it any more.
    * Being limited to using a handful of abilities at a time in games like GW2, SWL, ESO when there were SO MANY more you know and could choose from !
    * Games that for some completely baffling reason insist on giving you stupid quests, eg things that the quest-giver could easily do themselves, look through animal droppings (why is there one of these in almost every single MMO!?!?!), deliver a message to a person standing right there!!. Completely wrecks the immersion for me.
    * Playing MMOs that don't get the absolute basics right. IMHO there are a few things you just CANNOT afford to stuff up:
    1) Players giving you their money (seriously, if you make that hard for people, why are you even in business?),
    2) Out of game: Customer Service (dismissive, unavailable, uninformed or inconsiderate Customer Service is like poison that will destroy an MMO),
    3) In-game: Loot, in 20+ yrs of MMO-ing, nothing I've seen has the potential for causing breakups more than this
  • varkunvarkun Member, Braver of Worlds
    Best MMO experience is the start of a new MMO when everyone is excited to experience this new game and all it has to offer, the community is usually very upbeat there is no trolling and negative behavior going on. That is assuming the launch is relatively smooth.

    Seeing one of my friends wow accounts get hacked and standing watching his toons get stripped of gear and his bank being emptied and we could do nothing. Luckily I was able to demote them before the guild bank took a hit.
    3KAqRIf.png
    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
  • JoselineJoseline Member
    edited June 4
    Worst experience:
    Elswords power creep due to change of design philosophy into an extrem flashy & fast paced gameplay

    They reworked the skilltree (yet again) and buffed almost every skill by doing so. Attributes that let you choose between flat out more damage or def-pierce in most cases (the rarer once where less mp, more range or less cooldown (which basically increased DPS as well)
    .. altough the MP cost down-attribute wasnt really important (as well as the 100% crit attribute) since they also released a bunch of diffrent mp pots. In Elsword you have 6 slots for consumables, nowdays you can use.. I believe 3 or 4 (perhaps even 5) of those slots for a 100% mp pots and 1 more for a partial mp pot. I should note that MP is the only ressource that limits your use of skills and even a "partial mp pot" is enough to grant you access to almost all of your skills. Ironically most basic skills have higher DPS than the hyper skill (a glorified 3min cd skill with a lot of damage but endlessly long cast time)
    8 Skills werent enough anymore because you had enough MP to keep all 8 on cooldown 99% of the time, so they increased the skillslots to 10. Those two additional slots buff the skills in them, granting additional damage and a cooldown reset on those skills every few seconds

    Now that skills can be used without limitations, the next thing they did was to introduce new stats (or did they do it at the same time.. doesnt matter I guess). Skill dmg up, all dmg up, crit dmg up.. I think I forgott one more oh yea, boss dmg up .. well. They also introduced cooldown decrease and mp cost decrease effects (which werent needed anymore as there are already a lot of effects resetting cooldowns and I already explained the mp cost thing)

    But whats the point in scaling if youre base dmg is low? In the early days of elsword the max upgrade was at +10. Average high end player had +7/+8. If I remember correctly (and Im sure im not totally wrong here) +10 weapons had 2.4 times the base damage (which was only achievable through cashing btw) and +7/+8 weapons were near 2 times the base damage (slightly below, yea that scaling was always cashgrab). Now max Lv is +13 with 3 times the base damage (base dmg is a lot higher too, taking scaling lv into account). Scaling in early levels is weaker, in later levels higher. Meaning you no cash, you even less damage

    Ill skip things like that one pet that did more than 10 times the damage of other pets but instead of nerfing that one pet they buffed literally all other pets until they did about the same damage as that one pet (thats powercreep at its finest btw)

    To fight this powercreep, mobs in new released dungeons were imune to hitstun most of the time (the entire combo system of this game is built around hitstuns) while they themselfes stunned you for 1~2 seconds per hit allowing them to chain-stun you to death - unless you use mp to either force a knockdown or you use mp to spam skills to have iFrames 100% of the time. Of course the spam everything to death doesnt work if you dont have the damage.. and as I said, the best way to get damage is through cashing
    I should mention that if youre playing this game for quite some time you have the ressources to help yourself out a bit but for almost everyone its impossible to get all the gear you need to be high end without cashing. Including those veterans. And by high end I dont mean "highest end" but "lowest high end"
    ..where was I.. oh yea. so in the end dungeons are super frustrating as every single mob feels like a miniboss and actual bosses are even worse. Sometimes even with a 4 man group (max group size is 4man) it can feel impossible to beat one of the normal dungeons
    The original combo system complitely vanished in PvE as you cant combo those mobs anymore and if you try youll just get killed (as I said, they dont get stunned so they can attack and stun you as they like unless youre having iFrames (using skills) 24/7 or being imune to hitstun yourself (which is something only 1 class can do but even when imune to hitstun, you dont have a fun time as they win the slap fight, so you end up spaming skill most of the time anyway)

    Best experience
    This ones tough.. I could say Elsword because I really enjoyed Elswords gameplay and its open skill ceiling. Altough it was lacking proper high end PvE content and all you did all the time was sitting in PvP channels to chatt and bash strangers it was quite a nice time.. Elsword never really offered much outside of its 2D-combo beat em up system but that combat system was amazing, especially if youre in a guild where everyone wants to get the most out of their characters. Flashy effects and fast paced gameplay wasnt needed because one that could control their character moved so fast that it there was no need for any effects. It looked impressive and aesthetic in itself, especially if two of those players fought against each other
    Also there are so many diffrent outfits, even back then. From skimpy/sexy to edgy to cute, jus everything for any style. I enjoyed it so much to just collect and mix diffrent sets together

    But I could also say BladenSoul.. I enjoyed its action combat gameplay with your few base rotations and block and dodge skills. It was quite challenging to tank bosses if you knew that one mistake could kill you and you had to time your blocks and iframes perfectly to make sure to dodge all attacks while still keeping up your DPS by looping your few rotations and keeping your buffs up
    Upgrading your equip was also pretty cool. While it was really timeconsuming (BnS is about grinding, thats just how it is), every upgrade you did felt really special. Every single upgrade, leveling your weapon or accecoir to the next stage until it finally turns golden. There was no RNG that could screw you. You just get the materials you need and upgrade your weapon step by step
  • tinukedatinukeda Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 4
    Background: I dabbled in L2 when it came out but not for long. Nothing after that until Neverwinter, which was quickly replaced for me with AA (Headstart Founder)

    Worst (emotional) experience: I would say the worst experience I've had with MMO's is the population decline that seems inevitable with the genre. There are uncountable numbers of people I remember enjoying playing with who eventually left the game(s). It's quite sad remembering all the people from previous guilds who are long departed.

    Worst (mechanical) experience: Neverwinter had a vote-kick system for parties in dungeons that had a simple yet incredible flaw. If you lost a player, someone new could enter the party. They could then wait until the other 4 were engaged in a boss fight and then initiate a vote-kick on someone. The vote-kick dialogue would pop up in the middle of everyone's screen (which could annoy or even kill them). Most people would cancel out of the prompt. HOWEVER, the game would then remove their vote from consideration. If everyone cancelled, the vote initiator would win 1-0 and someone would be kicked! If 1 person voted and it was a tie, the vote initiator would STILL WIN! They would also have friends waiting and ready to queue and consume the newly opened slot. The upshot of this is that people would abuse the mechanics and use them to 'steal' the dungeon from the original party once they'd done all the work of getting to the final boss.

    Best experience: I would say the best experience I've had has been with AA and joining some of the larger guilds out there and getting to participate in the high-end content (castle sieges, defenses, leviathan and kraken kills, etc). Meeting fun people and getting to do the main "content" was most enjoyable.
  • hulkmasterhulkmaster Member, Pioneer
    Worst:
    Any p2w experience :D

    Generally most of my worst mmo experiences were all because of poor design decisions:
    1) p2w ideology

    2) poor, monotone battle experience, where whole battle was about "who has better ping and clicking speed", where the only thing you did was: click buttons from 1-5, praying that you will have crit or something.
    Battle system, when you could be easily be replaces with 1 macro (hello 1button paladins from wow!).

    3) Poor questing/leveling experience - typical "kill 10 boars" questing, and i'm talking here about 99.9% MMOs, where you do not feel illusion, where "your actions mean something" - quest giver tells you "omg, kill 10 boars or we are doomed!", and, basically, its a lie - nothing will happen in either way.

    4) Booring gaming cycles.
    Archage:
    you must grind, to build a house.
    why?
    to build a garden
    why?
    to have better equipment
    why?
    to have a castle
    why?
    to build a garden...

    5) Grind :c
    I hate when games, in order to make you "pay annual fee", force you to do some action again and again... There is no fun in it.
    Why not, instead, make something, that will require enourmous skill? Top raids provide best equipment, and are pretty hard to achieve: users spend months in order to achieve something.
    Same result, different ways.

    6) GW2 sieges.
    When GW2 had released, they said "you can level up how you want", and first couple of months people were just leveling up on these battlegrounds: noone was actually playing in sieges :c
    And now, after 6 years most players, who wanted these battlegrounds left the game, and now there are just boring zergs :c


    Best:
    1) GW2, C9 battle system: semi non-target, immersive, pretty interesting skills, plenty of tactics, "easy to learn, hard to master"

    2) GW2 style questing with synamic events: aroud 80-90% are booring, but 10-20% that are left are pretty good: SIlverwastes, Dragon Stand, Dragon Fall, 70+ lvl locations in vanilla with temples were pretty good and interesting.
    On these locations you have a goal, where whole map tries to achieve something, in order to gain something. Cycle is not that big: around 30min-1hour. Pretty good mechanics usage.

    3) WoW raiding! It always was fun to gather 10 people. train together, and achieve something together :)

    4) L2 politics (sieges included!). I loved that time, when i, being a, basically, child, was trying to play in politics with other children on server :D. Loved that feeling, when you, with just words, achieved something "server-wide"

  • My worst experience was Elder Scrolls Online:
    Isolated PvP
    Instanced PvE
    Flat overland, mobs die in 1 hit, teleport every 20 seconds of riding. Super fast accesible mounts.
    Thin combat, no impact, no cooldowns. Spam fest.
    Stationary character in town porting to PvP/PvE


    My best experience in mmorpg was every mmorpg in I could travel with friends, fight challenging mobs and raid bosses, as well as other players out in the open.
    Extras:
    Guild animosity and sieges.
    Meaningful armor, weapons and jewelry, drops or craft.

    I enjoy playing let's 5 hours during which I will gain a lv or two, farm some mats for the wealon or armor I need to craft by the end of the week, kill or die fighting other players out in the open.
    I enjoy a world map in which the environment feels vast and our existance little, full of dangers.


    PvWorld.

    Line][Age was the best
    Tera Online second
  • fearlessfearless Member
    Soi started with wow as a 15 years old kid, and realy enjoy the story of the game but combat is meeh compared to Elder Scrolls Online or GW2. Nex good MMO is like i said ESO i like the story telling of the game and combat. Next i found Archeage soo good game, i mean there is a lot of features like your own housing, boats, ships, good fishing mechanics, meaningfull pvp but ohh god this p2w system ruins everything... I really hope AOC to take best features from this games and make a unique MMO of 2020!!!

  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    WORST:
    Of course, that's non-consensual PvP combat. Other players should not be able to force me to engage in an activity When I'm not in the mood for that activity. Just as I can't force them to craft or explore when they're not in the mood to craft or explore.

    2ND WORST:
    Running out of quests for my level range.

    3RD WORST:
    Grouping with other players who want to speed run dungeons and/or who want to dictate cookie-cutter builds and strategies.

    BEST:
    Costume/Decorating/Flash Mob parties with other players. Or gathering for classes that help other players learn more about skills/abilities/crafting tactics.

    2ND BEST:
    Learning how to synergize the abilities I like to use for my character(s) with the abilities my friends like to use.
    I prefer to wipe a bunch of times while working out how we can win playing the way we like to play rather than trying to make other people conform to an optimal strategy.

    3RD BEST:
    Exploring beautiful, foreign locales.

    4TH BEST: Using the camera to create anime-style machinima.

  • kaikukaiku Member
    My good friend Hammy (Sam) and I discussed some of the good ole times we had on our podcast recently.

    https://rotttalk.podbean.com/e/rott-talk-ep-2-story-time-vol-1/

    We also have a podcast every Tuesday at 9PM EST which you can watch live on twich.tv/vieras

    You can also find us on itunes/youtube/podbean!
  • The worst for me was when, in ESO, someone in chat linked a top tier sword and it only did about 30% more damage than the crummy iron sword I picked up off the beach at level one. I could write an entire essay on how much I hate ESO's scaling system, but suffice to say that was the moment when I first realized how broken it was and it really soured the entire game for me.

    The best was back when I was playing WoW. I had only played dps up to that point and had decided to roll a healer just to see what it was like. Anyway, once I was a high enough level to use it I joined a group via the dungeon finder. I did a well enough job healing for it being my first try and the tank and I really gelled, so after the dps left we just queued up again together, and kept on doing dungeon after dungeon, occasionally swapping out dps, for hours. The highlight of the whole experience was when in a boss fight one of the dps got feared into a pack of mobs and we came within inches of wiping. By the end I think only the tank was still alive (I was in that spirit form that priests got) but we just barely managed to scrape by thanks to some last second heals I got off. I'm pretty sure that whole experience was what inspired my love of healing in mmos and I almost always roll a healer as my main now.
  • zorishzorish Member
    Best experience: finding my current guild. I mean, I had so much fun playing with them. Also killing Crucia in Frozen Tempest in Rift. It felt so good, after so many tries and in a pug group.

    Worst experience: Well, I'd have to say when real money mattered in the game. Inflation was stupid, and those people could rule the economy. In Rift when REX started to appear, prices when up so much, your old ways of farming died.
  • cairocairo Member
    Best: being part of a guild that held an RO castle to almost 100 econ.

    Worst: hovering over Miskatonic University watching as the world went black when the servers for Landmark were shut down.
  • gloryglory Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 5
    I guess I'll start by saying I am an RP-PvP player.

    Best Experiences:

    -World PvP on Rift online going around the "Rift" locations.
    -World PvP in early World of Warcraft. Highlights include Hillsbrad/Southshore and the Isle of Qual'Danas in BC.
    -Arena PvP in WoW and SWTOR. Both had merits.
    -Battleground(instanced) PvP. Especially those that did not include vehicles.
    -Talent Trees and playing around with Specs. I love experimentation and making thing work.
    -Character creation in BDO.
    -Story/Cutscenes from Swtor
    -Trinty System. I love the classic.
    -Rock/Paper/Scissors balancing. Not every class has to have every thing.
    -Transmog and/or outfitting. I want to progress in the game but I don't want to be forced to look bad.
    -Sub Business Model (Steady stream of income for development)


    Worst Experiences:

    -Flying Mounts in World PvP.
    -Instanced Battlegrounds that are excessively PvE and/or Vehicle based.
    -MMOs that have removed/limited skill trees and/or talent diversity (ex, Modern WoW)
    -Ridiculously grinding quests. (Example: I once played an mmo called Silkroad for a moment where you had to kill X tigers. Then after turn in they had you go back out to collect X Tiger teeth. It kept repeating until you reached like 200 Tigers or something)
    -End Game "Chores" (Example: When you lock progression around dailies or provide extra incentive to do everything "once" a day/week. This leads to you feeling you have to do them every day. Even if you don't enjoy them.
    -Raids. I gotta be honest I don't really like them. I know they are popular but i just can't put myself behind them. They are extremely repetitive, scripted and I feel they are un-heroic. 25 v 1?
    -Guild Wars 2 "downed" system. This added a gimmicky mechanic that I felt always ruined this game's combat system. Especially the PvP. As it became more of a mini-game within the game.
    -Homogenized classes. Not every class has to have every thing.
    -Over reliance on Consumables. Especially in PvP. (You feel dishonorable if you use them and they don't. However, you feel required to use everything available to maximize potential.)

    Most Hated:

    -Instancing/Phasing (I hate this more than anything. Imo, it destroys PvP. Breaks immersion and destroys game communities)
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited June 5
    glory wrote: »
    -Over reliance on Consumables. Especially in PvP. (You feel dishonorable if you use them and they don't. However, you feel required to use everything available to maximize potential.)
    I never understood this, to be honest.

    Consumables are available to everyone, and are nothing more than an extension of your classes abilities.

    To me, this notion is no different than all PvP players in a specific game getting together and deciding it was poor form to use your level 50 spell in PvP combat.

    It's completely and totally arbitrary.

    I can't help but think it all started accidentally as well - some hotshot PvP player probably got killed by a no-one one day because Mr. Hotshot forgot to stock up on consumables. Rather than take the defeat, he decided to ridicule the no-one for using consumables, claiming that it is poor form. Then due to PvP players not being well known for independent thought, this caught on as the "new normal".
  • gloryglory Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 5
    noaani wrote: »
    I never understood this, to be honest.

    Consumables are available to everyone, and are nothing more than an extension of your classes abilities.

    To me, this notion is no different than all PvP players in a specific game getting together and deciding it was poor form to use your level 50 spell in PvP combat.

    It's completely and totally arbitrary.

    I can't help but think it all started accidentally as well - some hotshot PvP player probably got killed by a no-one one day because Mr. Hotshot forgot to stock up on consumables. Rather than take the defeat, he decided to ridicule the no-one for using consumables, claiming that it is poor form. Then due to PvP players not being well known for independent thought, this caught on as the "new normal".

    I disagree strongly. As I mentioned before, with consumables it creates a situation of false choice. If they are available then everyone has to use them in order to even the playing field. But if everyone is using them then.. what is the point of adding them to begin with?

    Consumables also create balancing issues. Since some classes might be very powerful but not entirely mobile. However you add in a consumable that gives +100% speed and suddenly that class weakness is negated.

    So my complaints about consumables are as follows:

    1) It adds a layer to PvP that I don't find desirable. In that, it punishes players that don't have professions/guilds/money/etc. in order to keep stocked on consumables.

    2) It alters, and can ruin, some class balance. (Like the example above)

    3) It doesn't add anything to the system, in that, if everyone can use it.. why have it at all? Isn't this the very definition of homogenization?

    4) I, personally, find it dishonorable. Even though consumables are like your own skills/talents. The truth is that they are not.


    My solutions, since I know it is inevitable consumables will exist in the game.

    1) Make them all share a similar CD so that it doesn't become Consumable Wars where we have to juggle 5-10 different consumables at a time. (Reason: This at least breaks some of the homogenization as it requires players to pick which ones they want to use. Rather than everyone having them all)

    2) Disable the use for PvP. (Example: A "grenade" that stuns would only stun PvE mobs)
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited June 5
    glory wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    I never understood this, to be honest.

    Consumables are available to everyone, and are nothing more than an extension of your classes abilities.

    To me, this notion is no different than all PvP players in a specific game getting together and deciding it was poor form to use your level 50 spell in PvP combat.

    It's completely and totally arbitrary.

    I can't help but think it all started accidentally as well - some hotshot PvP player probably got killed by a no-one one day because Mr. Hotshot forgot to stock up on consumables. Rather than take the defeat, he decided to ridicule the no-one for using consumables, claiming that it is poor form. Then due to PvP players not being well known for independent thought, this caught on as the "new normal".

    I disagree strongly. As I mentioned before, with consumables it creates a situation of false choice. If they are available then everyone has to use them in order to even the playing field. But if everyone is using them then.. what is the point of adding them to begin with?
    They are added to the game as a means of furthering the player economy. That is the primary purpose of adding any form of player made consumable item to any game.

    The fact that they are actually useful is simply a by-product of needing people to want to buy them.

    Consumables also create balancing issues. Since some classes might be very powerful but not entirely mobile. However you add in a consumable that gives +100% speed and suddenly that class weakness is negated.
    I don't think I need to point out that a 100% movement speed consumable would be overpowered in almost any MMO.

    While I appreciate it is just an example, try and pick examples that are reasonable.

    That said, if a specific class relies on their speed to be effective, that class would have speed buffs in it's natural form. If they come up against someone in PvP that then uses a speed consumable in order to attempt to negate that players speed advantage, that player can then use one them self, bringing the speed advantage back to them.

    Any player that is playing a class that relies on speed and doesn't take speed consumables out to PvP is a player that is ill prepared and deserves what ever comes their way.

    On the other hand, if the class in question that relies on speed doesn't gain any advantage from the speed consumable for what ever reason, then that class has a valid issue with the games development. This then moves from an issue with consumables to an issue with the developers idea of balance.

    So my complaints about consumables are as follows:
    1, That is the primary purpose of consumables, keeping the economy turning.

    No one player is supposed to pick one activity in an MMO - be it PvP, grouping, raiding, crafting - and stick to just that one thing. If PvE raiding is your thing, then you should have to farm coin for consumables and item repairs. If you are a crafter, you should have to find harvesters to buy from, and adventurers to sell to.

    This holds true for the PvP'er as well - your activity needs to add to the server community as a whole, otherwise there is no point in you being there.

    Consumables are one of very few means by which a PvP player adds to the server as a whole. PvP players should grab on to that and milk it for all it's worth, not scorn the very notion of it.

    2, This is an issue with game design in general, not consumables specifically. It is very possible to add a variety of worth while consumables to the game without it impacting on class balance.

    3, It adds more options. Options are always good.

    4, I personally find it dishonorable when people use their max level spells against me in PvP, but you won't find me suggesting they be limited to PvE only.
    My solutions, since I know it is inevitable consumables will exist in the game.

    1) Make them all share a similar CD so that it doesn't become Consumable Wars where we have to juggle 5-10 different consumables at a time. (Reason: This at least breaks some of the homogenization as it requires players to pick which ones they want to use. Rather than everyone having them all)

    2) Disable the use for PvP. (Example: A "grenade" that stuns would only stun PvE mobs)
    Honestly, I'd be happy if the developers added in consumables specific to PvE, but only if they also added in consumables specific to PvP.

    The reuse on consumables is an incredibly important factor to their use. I agree that players shouldn't just be able to spam them.

    While I doubt it would happen, this is how I would like to see consumables handled in Ashes.

    ---

    Give players "consumable" slots tied to a specific item (backpack or belt). Have differing options between number of consumable slots, and number of consumables per slot. As an example, one pack may contain 4 slots, but each slot can hold 10 of one potion type. Meanwhile, another item may have 6 slots, but is only able to hold 5 potions in each slot.

    Make it so that players need to be at a node in order to change or replenish their consumables, similar to how we will have to be in town to change our spells/secondary class.

    From there, add many, many potions to the game. Break them down in to various groups of potions - heals, mana replenish, CC breaks, extra defense, extra damage and general utility. Have multiple potions in each "type", ie the CC break has a potion to break root, a potion to break snare etc, heal and mana restore potions have a good size instant potion, a very slow over time potion with "X per second over Y seconds" , and a few others in between, and so on.

    Base reuse timers on potion type, and length based specifically on each individual potion. So a big straight up heal may trigger a 90 second reuse timer for all heal potion. Likewise, using a snare break will trigger a reuse timer on all CC break potions.

    What this system does is place many different options in front of the player in terms of deciding whether they want many of a few different potions or few of many different potions, then they have to decide exactly which potions they want, and more specifically which potions they don't think they will need.

    What this does is it breaks up the rock/paper/scissors of PvP combat, but only a tiny little bit. You may be a class that is has a single rotation that relies heavily on an initial CC, and I may be a class that is overly susceptible to that specific rotation. If you come at me and start out with your CC - and I happen to have a potion to counter it - then all of a sudden you are in a position where you need to prove that you are not simply a one trick pony.

    That last statement is all I ever think of when I hear a PvP focused player complain about consumables. They want to maintain the status quo so that the one trick they learned continues to work. They want to play one combo rather than the whole game.

    Edit to add; Since we are going to be limited in how many ability slots we have, potions should be context sensitive for their use rather than activating them as you would a normal spell.

    As an example, if you are hit with a CC and happen to have the break for that specific CC in a potion slot, you will be prompted to cast a break for that CC. If you have a heal or mana potion, clicking on your health or mana bar will use one. That way, consumables need not take up any valuable ability slots or screen real estate.
  • gloryglory Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 5
    noaani wrote: »

    I don't think I need to point out that a 100% movement speed consumable would be overpowered in almost any MMO.

    While I appreciate it is just an example, try and pick examples that are reasonable.


    Thank you for the response.

    One thing I did catch and wanted to specifically address was this part of your post.

    https://www.wowhead.com/item=152497/lightfoot-potion

    World of Warcraft, which is currently the most played MMO, has a potion that increases speed by 150%. So I felt my example was more than reasonable.
    noaani wrote: »

    4, I personally find it dishonorable when people use their max level spells against me in PvP, but you won't find me suggesting they be limited to PvE only.

    I truly doubt you believe this. I get the point you're trying to make but I don't think this argument here is sincere. All the others i can see though.
    noaani wrote: »

    While I doubt it would happen, this is how I would like to see consumables handled in Ashes.

    ---

    Give players "consumable" slots tied to a specific item (backpack or belt). Have differing options between number of consumable slots, and number of consumables per slot. As an example, one pack may contain 4 slots, but each slot can hold 10 of one potion type. Meanwhile, another item may have 6 slots, but is only able to hold 5 potions in each slot.

    Make it so that players need to be at a node in order to change or replenish their consumables, similar to how we will have to be in town to change our spells/secondary class.

    From there, add many, many potions to the game. Break them down in to various groups of potions - heals, mana replenish, CC breaks, extra defense, extra damage and general utility. Have multiple potions in each "type", ie the CC break has a potion to break root, a potion to break snare etc, heal and mana restore potions have a good size instant potion, a very slow over time potion with "X per second over Y seconds" , and a few others in between, and so on.

    Base reuse timers on potion type, and length based specifically on each individual potion. So a big straight up heal may trigger a 90 second reuse timer for all heal potion. Likewise, using a snare break will trigger a reuse timer on all CC break potions.

    What this system does is place many different options in front of the player in terms of deciding whether they want many of a few different potions or few of many different potions, then they have to decide exactly which potions they want, and more specifically which potions they don't think they will need.

    What this does is it breaks up the rock/paper/scissors of PvP combat, but only a tiny little bit. You may be a class that is has a single rotation that relies heavily on an initial CC, and I may be a class that is overly susceptible to that specific rotation. If you come at me and start out with your CC - and I happen to have a potion to counter it - then all of a sudden you are in a position where you need to prove that you are not simply a one trick pony.

    I don't mind this at all. I would be fully supportive of this. I hope Intrepid treats consumables in this manner. As this would be an ideal compromise in my eyes.

    In any case, I don't want to derail this thread too much from the original intent. So if we want to continue I think we should create another thread on this topic.


  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Individual players should play the way they like to play - players who don't use consumables should be able to find a way to thrive without them and players who like to use consumables should also be able to find a way to thrive.

    I'm a carebear who only enjoys PvP combat sometimes. The type of PvP combat I enjoy is objective-based defense rather than direct combat. Which is why I'm glad Steven is focused on objective-based PvP combat.

    There is nothing objectively dishonorable about using potions. It's just a playstyle. Might just be a character quirk. Each player should be trying to devise character-building strategies that they enjoy. Players who don't like to use consumables should be able to create characters that prevail without consumables by finding viable racial, social, religious and adventurer augments, in addition to weapon progressions, that make consumables moot for them.
    When I PvP, though, consumables wouldn't really help me complete my objectives.

    Everyone should not feel pressured to use consumables simply because they exist and some PvPers find it advantageous for their specific character builds.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited June 5
    glory wrote: »

    World of Warcraft

    I did mention poor game design a number of times in that post.

    Popular or not, WoW is the epitome of poor game design.


  • gloryglory Member, Braver of Worlds
    noaani wrote: »

    I did mention poor game design a number of times in that post.

    Popular or not, WoW is the epitome of poor game design.

    Can't say I disagree with this.

  • theavatartheavatar Member
    Best MMO experience: Raiding in wow without looking up step by step guides on how exactly to do every single boss. Discovering a way to deal with mechanics as a group and defeating a difficult boss is incredibly satisfying. Id love to see that in Ashes though i recognize these days its impossible to have any content in an mmo without an entire community expecting you to follow a 100% optimized cookie cutter guide.

    Worst MMO experience: Atlas... nearly everything about it. Not region locked, tons of hackers, people sinking your ships while you are offline that you spent hours gathering materials for, small group content is practically non-existent, If you arent part of one of the massive alliances you are pretty much screwed in terms of participating in any pvp (i use participate very loosely. Its more like you getting wiped of the face of the earth and starting over from scratch).
  • nightwolfj2nightwolfj2 Member, Braver of Worlds
    Best MMO Experience: Would have to be my very first MMO which was EQ. Back then when you got lost, you got lost. This was when it first came out, before any expansion came out. There was no fast travel from town A to Town B which was the amazing part of the ADVENTURE. And I loved every second of it, not knowing what was going to happen next.

    Worst MMO Experience: Playing other MMOs after EQ and that they were all majorily the same. No real innovation that this game is striving for. Not really an experience but more of a revelation over the years, until this guy! Steven "Sandal Savior" Sharif.

    And all you wonderful people at the Intrepid Studios thank you so much.
Sign In or Register to comment.