Thank you to all who participated in our August 20 play test! If you joined in, please remember to leave your feedback and bug reports on the forums here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/categories/apoc-bug-reports

Class Vidoes

Well when I started playing mmos I was lost in the sauce, clueless, knowing zero about my class. Geuss made for great discovery but ounce I got to make level I thought I had reached the top of mountain as far as my training was concerned. Well could not be further from the truth. As an archer I really did not even know what my role was in pvp or pve . I pvp a lot and well pvp is unforgiving so I learned my class through trial and error more error than anything else but sometimes I felt like quiting but glad I did not. Learned mostly by watching other rangers actaully took a long time to play my class at acceptable level.

Well looking back on it now Think if the company would of directed me in the right direction think that would of saved me a ton of time. Now I know that there is a certain amount of discovery and learning how to play you class correctly (doing reasearch testing things out and watching videos online made for other players ) is part of the progression in MMORPG vs having every thing spoon fed to you.

But I think Just a simple video explaining what the class role what some abilites do. I am not talking about game mechanics or which set is best. But just a simple guide real simple guide that show role that class plays in pve and pvp. One example could be like how a mages wall of force could be used to protect other players if they are stacked behing the toon. Do not know if that is even possible.

Plus they could also be used to show case other classes kind of like Black Desrt Online.

Comments

  • ArzosahArzosah Member, Leader of Men
    Generally speaking, I think in MMOs this is handled really well by the community. The devs have an idea of how a class should be played, but through theory crafting MMO communities work out all the nuances of how class plays. Additionally the community is in a better situation to maintain guide over a long period of time, I can't see a developer studio coming out with a new class video every time they make a change to the class that might invalidate the previous video to some degree.
    i55FwpZ.png
  • noaaninoaani Member
    I've never trusted what any developer said about any class in their game.

    Almost every class can be pushed to do things it wasn't designed for.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    This is a total non-issue as I guarantee that there will be community-made guides for every class in the game.
  • r41d3nzr41d3nz Member
    8 classes that can sub those same 8 for 64 combos. plus all the impact that different weapons and such have on the class. I don't see how they would make any videos to say "this does that"
  • insomniainsomnia Member
    noaani wrote: »
    I've never trusted what any developer said about any class in their game.

    Almost every class can be pushed to do things it wasn't designed for.

    Which is also why the games often have to change specs etc, or completely redo the spec'ing because of it
  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    One thing people need to realize is the devs of a game generally are mediocre at it at best and don't even fall into the top 1% of players. When I see a guide, I always pay attention to the person talking and if they use their own gameplay footage to see if they actually know what they are talking about. Tera is a prime example of a game that you DO NOT under any circumstances want to watch mediocre guides because it will lead you to death and misery in the same way it can happen in Dank Souls.

    One thing I need to give credit to though it steven has a history in gaming with some of the best so he may be an exception. Game developers tend to spend more time making games rather than playing them, which is a positive thing for obvious reasons. This leaves the community to take care of guides which is also a good thing usually.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    One thing people need to realize is the devs of a game generally are mediocre at it at best and don't even fall into the top 1% of players. When I see a guide, I always pay attention to the person talking and if they use their own gameplay footage to see if they actually know what they are talking about. Tera is a prime example of a game that you DO NOT under any circumstances want to watch mediocre guides because it will lead you to death and misery in the same way it can happen in Dank Souls.

    One thing I need to give credit to though it steven has a history in gaming with some of the best so he may be an exception. Game developers tend to spend more time making games rather than playing them, which is a positive thing for obvious reasons. This leaves the community to take care of guides which is also a good thing usually.

    That's not really anything special. Riot tries to employ as many "actual gamers" as possible and yet they still make tons of mistakes when it comes to balance and game design. I agree with you though that games devs usually don't have enough time to invest enough into playing the game to get a complete knowledge of even a single class.
  • Well if forums are pretty good for class improvement which they are then new players need to be directed to them. Now I know that spendinga couple of hours just reading about let say Clerics in PVP is can be real beneficial. So they should get hints like. Good way to lift your game if you are a new player is to check out the forums search for topic you want to learn about. Check out our guild recruitment forums to find a guild to suit your needs.

    People that are new to MMORPGS need a little direction so mabye there should be like a messaage that says ARE YOU NEW TO MMORPGS IF YES CLICK HERE. And just walk them through the how to use forums process.

  • leonerdoleonerdo Member, Settler
    edited June 8
    Unfortunately, a lot of players don't want to spend time reading or watching tutorials. They would rather learn by playing the game. Which is understandable. It just kinda sucks if they are still in the learning process when their party is relying on them in difficult content.

    I don't claim to know what the right solution to this is (if there even is one). But I guess it might help to put a big, shiny button or pop-up in game that links to the forums or a community guide website. It would probably be best if that button was not put at the beginning of the game, but rather at the start of difficult party content. If there are separate dungeon tiers for example, maybe only put that button (or like an in-world signpost that you can interact with, so it's less garish) at the start of hard-mode dungeons only.

    Just throwing ideas around.

    Ideally I think, the community would just take the time to teach newbies in-game. Without being a dick about it. Maybe Teaching or Academy guilds would help. I wonder if Intrepid could provide any teaching tools or rewards to those kinds of guilds. (Heh, I wasn't trying to, but I think I just made another case for guild-based DPS meters.)
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    edited June 8
    @leonerdo and @consultant There is no need for that. If players want to improve they will seek out the information for themselves via whichever medium they prefer. You can't direct or order players to watch/read guides on their class, because the sad fact is that the majority of players will think they don't need them, even when they clearly do.

    As a teacher in real life, I can tell you for a fact that most people hate it when a complete stranger points out their mistakes, even if that stranger is telling the truth. It doesn't matter how nicely you phrase it, people will take offence to it. This is especially bad in small team-based gameplay. How many times have you encountered a player who causes a wipe and yet insists that it is someone else's fault? It happens all the time.

    This is why I don't offer advice to anyone in-game. If someone approaches me and asks a question I will gladly help them out, but I will always let them come to me, not go to them.

    The community will make guides for all the classes given enough time, and those players that want to improve will find them. Hell, in WoW there are entire websites and discord servers dedicated to theorycrafting each class and spec. It's a little insane really.
  • ViymirViymir Member, Braver of Worlds
    One of the fun things with MMORPG's is the community testing and theory crafting the different classes to the nth degree. Lots of people really enjoy it and in the most part share this information freely to the wider community.

    It is not difficult for any player to find out information that is community sourced. Maybe for basic stuff it is good to have in game pointers and tips, but it doesn't need to go too far in depth.
  • leonerdoleonerdo Member, Settler
    @wanderingmist I'm not saying they should "order" every player to look up a guide before they do dungeons. I'm just saying they should suggest it. Like put a little sign out front of the dungeon that says something like "Hey, this dungeon is harder than other content. You have to be at your best to get through it. If you want any tips or help reaching your potential, you can go to this link for guidance."

    Sure a lot of people will ignore the sign, and proceed to suck. And some of them will refuse to examine their own expertise as a potential problem. I would just put the sign there because a few people might see it, ignore it, fail a couple times, and then realize after the fact that the warning was for real. And maybe they'll check out the link.

    The purpose is really just to set the expectation that the dungeons are hard and require more attention/skill out of the players than other content they may be used to. Whether or not players accept that expectation and/or take advantage of learning resources is, of course, up to them.

    Put in a different way, it's to keep players from waltzing into a dungeon expecting it to be the same as solo-farming in the open world, but with a party around them doing the same thing. And because they handled solo-gameplay just fine, they assume it's the party that's the problem, rather than raising their expectations for what they themselves need to do.

    I dunno, you're right that not much can be done, but I feel like MMO devs could try a little harder to set proper expectations when it comes to different kinds of content. Like "Yes, this wall in difficulty is intentional. YOU need to get better."

    ....

    Or maybe expectations should just be more uniform. Like if you do enough DPS for dungeon content, then you should also be failing hard at solo-content. Or the transition to harder party dungeons should start with demanding solo dungeons that requires players to know their class well and be able to handle a couple mechanics on top of that. That way you can ensure that most players have base-line competence before they can join parties for demanding content.

    ....

    Hmm, I'm also thinking there might be a problem with party/dungeon feedback. Like when was the last time an MMO gave specific feedback to a player that he/she/they was the one who failed a group mechanic, and that's why they wiped. Players get too caught up in their own rotations to watch what everyone else is doing, so they're often left clueless when things start to go south because of party/dungeon mechanics. And when party members give them the feedback, they can blow it off too easily as standard internet flaming. The game needs to be one to give proper feedback.

    ....

    Oh, but I seem to have gotten a little off-topic accidentally. I was talking more about dungeon/party gamplay than class gameplay. Eh, they're related closely enough.

    Anyways, people are inherently more motivated to learn how to be good at their classes, because they wanna be strong and do a lot of cool stuff. So unless this is literally their first MMO, I think it can be expected that most players will look up a class guide on their own if they need it.

    Unfortunately, there still needs to be those annoying pop-up tutorials that you see in every MMO, for the sake of brand-new MMO/RPG players who have no idea what's going on. Obviously those should be on by default, but allow veterans to opt-out of them easily. As it relates to this discussion, I still like the idea of a community guide website that is officially supported by Intrepid, and I think there should be links to it in-game, especially in those newbie tutorial pop-ups (which, again, can be turned off).
  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    @leonerdo and @consultant There is no need for that. If players want to improve they will seek out the information for themselves via whichever medium they prefer. You can't direct or order players to watch/read guides on their class, because the sad fact is that the majority of players will think they don't need them, even when they clearly do.

    As a teacher in real life, I can tell you for a fact that most people hate it when a complete stranger points out their mistakes, even if that stranger is telling the truth. It doesn't matter how nicely you phrase it, people will take offence to it. This is especially bad in small team-based gameplay. How many times have you encountered a player who causes a wipe and yet insists that it is someone else's fault? It happens all the time.

    This is why I don't offer advice to anyone in-game. If someone approaches me and asks a question I will gladly help them out, but I will always let them come to me, not go to them.

    The community will make guides for all the classes given enough time, and those players that want to improve will find them. Hell, in WoW there are entire websites and discord servers dedicated to theorycrafting each class and spec. It's a little insane really.

    I feel your pain lol (I am just not as nice as you seem). In Tera I was a trainer (also the guild leader) for my guild for about 5 years and I cannot tell you the amount of people that tried to say I was wrong when I taught them how to play a class properly (I was at least proficient in them all). All I would do at that point if they would not listen to reason is add them to my to-do list and bring it up with my officers, which normally led to a removal or demotion. We advertised ourselves as a hardcore pvp/pve guild so people didn't have a right to be surprised when that was the outcome. In a hardcore guild you follow the law of Dank Souls. GIT GUD OR GET OUT! :wink:
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    @leonerdo I admire your good intentions however I fear they are misplaced. Yes there is more game developers can do to teach players but you have to consider how much time and money it will cost to put those features in, features that might not make any difference at all. Just as an example, look at the Hall of the Novice in FFXIV. Clearly a lot of time and effort was put into that to teach players how to do group content, and yet from what I experienced it didn't help at all. Blizzard had similar poor results with their Proving Grounds. They didn't actually help players improve at all. There are far more subtle methods developers can employ for this.

    In all of this we have to consider not just how to help players, but WHEN to help them. In my opinion a lot of mmorpgs make the mistake of letting players coast through the levelling process and then try to teach them things at level cap. Why? One of the core aims of the levelling process is to teach players about the game mechanics and give them time to practice those mechanics BEFORE they reach level cap. It's really no wonder so many players are crap at end-game when they aren't taught or challenged at all during the levelling.

    So, how do you solve this? As a player levels up you put them into situations that require them to use the tools they have been given. For example, let's say you expect all players at end-game to interrupt enemy spell casts. Then early on in the levelling you teach the players an interrupt skill and then put enemies against them that force them to use that interrupt skill. You don't even need to put a big banner in front of the player saying "interrupt this skill or else!" but instead let them work it out for themselves. Not only that but you can't just give them 1 enemy that requires interrupts. If you truly want the players to be able to use that tool well they need to use them a lot, all the way through to the level cap.

    This will give players time not only to learn the limitations of the tool but it gives their fingers the practice required for the muscle memory to kick in and for the skill to become automatic. If a player has to think about which button to press in order to interrupt a spell, then it's not good enough. Again, this isn't something you want to try to teach at end-game, because that is far too late.
  • Well it is real obvious to veterans that New players should be spending time reading and watching videos and
    spending time in forums. All they want to do mostly is have fun. So think IS should get involved in some way to get them that point. Was reading some of your comments some of them are pretty good.

    Maybe the community could vote on Videos or websites that are most useful. So players can be directed. to them.
  • grisugrisu Member
    consultant wrote: »
    Maybe the community could vote on Videos or websites that are most useful. So players can be directed. to them.
    It's called google search
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. Grisu
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. Zekece#1819
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    consultant wrote: »
    Well it is real obvious to veterans that New players should be spending time reading and watching videos and
    spending time in forums. All they want to do mostly is have fun. So think IS should get involved in some way to get them that point. Was reading some of your comments some of them are pretty good.

    Maybe the community could vote on Videos or websites that are most useful. So players can be directed. to them.

    Again, this will happen regardless of what the devs do. Google searching and youtube likes/dislikes will see to that.
Sign In or Register to comment.