Getting new skills

consultantconsultant Member
edited June 11 in General Discussion
When a toon gets a neew skill instead of just getting it. There should be some scenerio that shows the intended use of that skill like a mages wall of force before they get it. I know this is spoon feeding and holding their hand but think it is better for toons to know the basics so they can be effective in a group. Playing with decent players in a raid or dungeoun or even easy content is a way beter experience than wiping all the time (not neccessarily all the time but you guys get the idea).

Some games have an NPC with voice overs during scenerios.
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Comments

  • arzosaharzosah Member, Leader of Men
    I can see that for the first skill in a starting area teaching you the basics of how the game works, but beyond that this sounds like a terrible idea.
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  • Well this is just basic skills not like teaching them that for burst dps, they should be using a 2h handed weapon , take potion, use ability that increases damage, just before using an ultimate ability. Then they can switch back to defensive set for Boss attack that does good area of effect damage.

    Ot teaching to put an certain icon or use emote with vioce over to denote a stun ahead of time so other toons can use certain abilities that do more damage when stunned.

    With no gear restrictions the skill cap can be really high cause have to switch weapons at different ranges and might have different abilties.

    Or teach them to use a faster weapon in one situation and a slower weapon in another situation.

    Even with the basics taught to them they will still have to watch videos and read forums to excell at their class do sense of diiscovery not really lost.

    Plus that is just game play not to mention pvp stratagies so they will have a lot learn.

  • neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited June 11
    I don't like this idea, especially in a sandbox mmo. I think people should be free to imagine and come up with fun ways to use their skills. Also, augments change skills in ways that may make such tutorials useless or even deceptive for new players. If a magic wall is augmented to allow monsters to walk though but now slows and damages them, a tutorial on the magic wall would do more harm than good imo. Let them play around with their skills and find out their full utility and uses through trial and error or being told them in groups/dungeons/raids/open world by other players.
  • azathothazathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    I like that wall.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • damoklesdamokles Member
    *starts mass chant* Spellbooks. Spellbooks. Spellbooks. Spellbooks! SPELLBOOKS! SPELLBOOKS!
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  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    As with all tutorials they should be completely optional.
  • leonerdoleonerdo Member, Settler
    I think it's a good idea for a quest. Characters shouldn't just manifest abilities out of nowhere and have mastery over them instantly. I'd rather see quests to unlock new abilities, which in addition to giving some story for the new ability, gives a brief overview of what it does and how it should be used.

    And honestly, it seems weird to me that an MMO player would be so averse to spending 10 minutes to be taught how to use a new skill, considering how much time they spend in the game anyways. I think it must have something to do with pride and wanting to figure things out on their own. I think there are good ways to circumvent that aversion though, with good quest structure.

    BnS had decent "tutorials" in that regard, because you (a student) were actually learning from a master of your martial art, doing drills and such, by their instruction. It felt appropriate.
  • neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited June 11
    leonerdo wrote: »
    And honestly, it seems weird to me that an MMO player would be so averse to spending 10 minutes to be taught how to use a new skill, considering how much time they spend in the game anyways. I think it must have something to do with pride and wanting to figure things out on their own. I think there are good ways to circumvent that aversion though, with good quest structure.

    Completely disagree. It is not being averse to the actual process of learning, it is the implications of having tutorials for how to use skills/play a class. If there is a tutorial made by the developers it means they have a rigid vision and a "right" way to play the class/use the skill. I don't want classes designed that have pre-planned spell rotations, I want to be given a variety of tools/skills that I then decide when and how to use given the situation and context. Any given skill should have sufficient variety in its applications and interactions with other spells that a tutorial is not really feasible. The hand-holding aspect of a tutorial is annoying yes, but the real reason I am opposed to this is that it suggests class design that has predetermined gameplay options. The exploration and discovery of how and when skills can be used should be a big and fun part of a SANDBOX MMO that I don't think should be taken away from.

    Also, again, with augments there should be too much variation in how skills behave and interact with other skills such that a tutorial which provides a few "intended" uses for a spell may not apply or may even mislead new players.

    In any case, what freaking spell requires a whole "tutorial"? It slows things down, it does damage over time, it teleports you some distance away... 10 minute tutorial for a single ability? "You can now track elementals! Use your new ability to track and kill 10 elementals" but why? I freaking understand, let me play the game. Can someone give an example of a spell/ability that would warrant a 10 minute tutorial?
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    edited June 11
    @Leonerdo I can totally get behind quests to unlock certain class defining abilities. Back in the day these were some of my favourite quests in WoW. Summoning your first void walker as a warlock, getting your bear form as a druid, getting your totams as a shaman, getting berserker stance as a warrior. All of these were very memorable occasions and they helped define the class.

    As for getting tutorials on those skills, I might sound arrogant here but as someone who has been playing mmorpgs for 15 years, I took 1 look at the abilities we have been shown so far and know exactly how the devs intend us to use them.

    Of course, there will probably be less experienced players who will benefit from tutorials but MMO veterans probably won't need them.

    As long as the tutorials are optional I have no problem with them. What I don't want is a repeat of BDO where you have to spend 20 minutes going through basic combat tutorials.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    A quest to get class defining abilities could be quite good.

    Rather than in game tutorials, a few helpful posts in class forums and a few good wiki sites should be enough imo.

    People that want to learn will find the resources, people that don't want to learn will ignore the in game tutorial anyway.
  • wonzaywonzay Member, Leader of Men
    edited June 12
    I would very much appreciate it if the devs are going for an abstract way of breaking the cliché mold of currying quests that define a certain ability. I'm not quite sure myself how this is going to work, but if you're deciding to redefine the mmorpg genre then you might as well bundle together different mechanics as well to make players experience something other than just the hard grind. That would be for the best, I assume.
  • consultantconsultant Member
    edited June 26
    Well I was playing wow and was asking some hunter to trap and the guy told me he did have it his spell book.
    My main was a hunter at the time too. So maybe there should be like a battlemaster for people that are not veterans.

    Thing is there a lot of people that are not veterans and just play for fun which is great that is the main reason to play MM0s But just implementing some simple systems would make them better players and that would be a win win for every one. . Mastering the basics is important in MMOs.
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    edited June 26
    consultant wrote: »
    Well I was playing wow and was asking some hunter to trap and the guy told me he did have it his spell book.
    My main was a hunter at the time too. So maybe there should be like a battlemaster for people that are not veterans.

    Thing is there a lot of people that are not veterans and just play for fun which is great that is the main reason to play MM0s But just implementing some simple systems would make them better players and that would be a win win for every one. . Mastering the basics is important in MMOs.

    History has shown us that forcing players to do something will inevitably cause them to resent it, particularly when it comes to telling them how to play their class. Compare if you like the difference in response between the Proving Grounds of WoD and the Mage Towers of Legion. Both features have similar goals, and yet one feature was hated, the other was praised. Why? Because the Proving Grounds were mandatory in order to group for heroic dungeons, whereas the Mage Towers were completely optional.

    The point is, if you want players to improve you need to put them in situations that encourages them to improve on their own. In order to complete the Mage Tower challenges, players had to use every tool in their arsenal, and think carefully about their build and gear. Players did this because they wanted to succeed, which is far more effective than a pop-up saying "use this ability now or else!".

    The way you present content is sometimes more important than the content itself.
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Seems like you should probably ask the Hunter if he uses Trap if you're expecting to rely on Trap. And/or adapt to the abilities that Hunter prefers to use.
    A scenario showing the "intended" use of a skill isn't going to teach players combat tactics if the description text doesn't. Ice Prison and Shield Bash and Cover and Hail of Arrows seem to be easily understandable without a demonstration scenario.
    Players will either learn tactics as they solo and/or learn new ways to use their skills when they group.

    I don't mind wiping a bunch of times while we develop winning strategies - that's part of the fun. Especially from an RP perspective. Conflict, flaws, discovery and adversity create great stories.
  • arzosaharzosah Member, Leader of Men
    dygz wrote: »
    Seems like you should probably ask the Hunter if he uses Trap if you're expecting to rely on Trap. And/or adapt to the abilities that Hunter prefers to use.
    That really isn't how things work in WoW, maybe thing will be different in AoC but I doubt it. Different classes are given utility skills and the players are expected to have enough of an understanding on what skill they have in their arsenal and be able to use their utility to progress the dungeon. A hunter that either doesn't know how to or refuses to use their utility he's essentially dead weight and you're better off replacing him for someone that can do their job.
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  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    1: I am quite sure that even in WoW people can defeat any challenge without the use of Trap. I understand the elitist phenomenon in WoW of certain players trying to force other players to play a specific way or switch to a specific spec, i.e. use specific skills available to a class even if the individual player doesn't use that specific skill.

    2: A Hunter refusing to use Trap is only dead weight if he happens to have obstinate party members who insist on using cookie-cutter strategies.

    3: That's not really the way RPGs are supposed to be. It's supposed to be that party-members adjust to the abilities each individual chooses to bring, rather than trying to force the individual to conform to cookie-cutter builds.
    This should be especially true in Ashes, where if the Cleric doesn't use Cleanse for whatever reason, they can compensate via heals... and players with Cleric as secondary archetype should also be able to compensate in various ways. Non-Clerics can bring healing potions. Using the Cleric utility will be just one way out of many options to overcome that challenge.

  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    edited June 26
    @arzosah Long gone are the days where you needed to bring a specific skill or class to complete a dungeon. Yes, having certain abilities makes the dungeon easier or faster, but even in high Mythic+ dungeons you don't NEED hunter traps to complete them.

    This is the illusion of meta-building. Players see what is being run at the MDI and think that that is the only way to run those dungeons. It's not, never has been and never will be. The same goes for the world first races. Yes, having certain teamcomps makes things easier but there are a few things to keep in mind. First of all, the guilds doing the world first race typically go into the raids totally undergeared, meaning they have to bring the very best set-up possible, and funnel the few gear drops they get onto the classes that will have the biggest impact. Second, those guilds have access to lots of different class combinations. Method raiders for example are expected to have up to 3-5 different classes ready to go at all times. This allows them to field whatever teamcomp they like at a moment's notice.

    99% of guilds aren't in this position so looking at the teamcomp Method uses for each boss in the world first race is pointless.

    It's this same delusional elitist bullshit that made me give up raiding in GW2. I was so sick of people telling me I had to run this specific build in this specific teamcomp in order to kill the bosses, even though there were videos on youtube of groups killing bosses with off-meta comps with no problem at all.
  • Wellthe point is this guy had a skill that you get at level 28 currently and did not even know it. He kept saying it ws not in his spell book. I did not need him to trap just made things really difficult.

    And the comment about hunter being dead weight and need replacing that is the very thing I am trying to avoid.

    This post is not about meta building or cookie cutting. it is about a Hunter saying. What is a freezing trap at near max level. Think option to have tutorial would of been better. Do not know what mastering basic abilities has to do with cookie cutter set ups.

    In most games you just get them right in the middle of combat. No explaination no nothing.

    As far as Metad building well their will always be min/maxers you just have to learn to deal with them. Find the right guild.
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    consultant wrote: »
    Wellthe point is this guy had a skill that you get at level 28 currently and did not even know it. He kept saying it ws not in his spell book. I did not need him to trap just made things really difficult.

    And the comment about hunter being dead weight and need replacing that is the very thing I am trying to avoid.

    This post is not about meta building or cookie cutting. it is about a Hunter saying. What is a freezing trap at near max level. Think option to have tutorial would of been better. Do not know what mastering basic abilities has to do with cookie cutter set ups.

    In most games you just get them right in the middle of combat. No explaination no nothing.

    As far as Metad building well their will always be min/maxers you just have to learn to deal with them. Find the right guild.

    I feel like I'm repeating myself here but this is where the levelling process is so important. It's not enough to give someone the tools, you need to put them in a situation that forces them to use those tools.

    I'm honestly not surprised that a max level hunter doesn't know how to use their traps in WoW because there is never a need to use them while levelling.

    A tutorial alone isn't going to solve the problem. Yes it might get the player to use a skill once but that's not enough. In order to gain proficiency in a skill you need to use it regularly. If you expect players to use an ability at max level then you need to give them plenty of opportunities to use it while levelling.

    Sekiro does this concept very well. For example, early on in the game you get an ability called "mikiri counter" which is used to avoid certain enemy attacks. Immediately after getting the skill you face a miniboss that requires you to use the skill in order to beat it. After that there are regular enemies that can only be killed using the "mikiri counter" technique. This means that by the time you reach the hardest bosses, you are very comfortable with the timing and use of the technique.

    Note that while there is a tutorial for this technique it is entirely optional and many players don't even bother with it. This is what I mean by having players regularly use an ability.
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    What you wrote is that the Hunter didn't have the spell in his spell book.
    Quick Google search says that's a Survival Hunter spell. If the player considers his character to be a Beastmaster rather than a Survival Hunter, he may not want to have that Spell.
    When I play my Feral Druid in WoW, I refuse to use Moonkin/Owlkin form - I'm a Cat; not a f'ing Tree.
    I also refuse to use mounts and will instead use Travel Form or Flight Form.

    If a Hunter isn't interested in the Survival spec, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have all of the spells in that spec. If he's a Beastmaster, I would expect him to have all the spells in that spec at max level - but he may have some RP reason for not taking some of those spells - which is fine, too.
    Mastering "basic" abilities -or not- is going to be up to the individual player regardless of tutorials.
    And individuals may choose not master all of the basic abilities... for a variety of reasons.

    Feels like I always had to specifically choose the abilities I wanted from a trainer... and I don't ever recall getting abilities in the middle of combat. There has always been descriptions for the abilities. And then I can experiment with how I want to fit them into my rotations.
    Only new MMORPG I've played long enough to level in the last 5 years is Bless Online. I don't recall gaining new abilities in the middle of combat, but I certainly didn't feel the need for tutorials. And having a tutorial wouldn't stop me from choosing not to use some abilities.
  • Id like to see that in the later levels for a core class ability. Maybe a quest for one or two abilities per class.
    Let's say 100 is max lv, when the player reaches 65 they should get to be in their prime with their class. A quest focused on those abilities sounds great to me.
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    @dygz times have changed my friend. I assume we're talking about modern WoW here in which case you no longer have to go to the trainer to buy your skills. Instead they get automatically added to your spell book as soon as you level up. So the hunter definitely will have the traps available but as I said, unless they used them while levelling I'm not surprised they don't know how to use them at max level.
  • damoklesdamokles Member
    @dygz and there we have the problem of wows current playstile. We once had the abilities of every class spec for our use, used them even, and then specialized and buffed to abilities for our wanted playstile(fire mages had frost spells and frost mages could use arcane spells for example). Now you normally only get the abilities for you spec. You practically dont play the class but rather the spec...
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  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    damokles wrote: »
    @dygz and there we have the problem of wows current playstile. We once had the abilities of every class spec for our use, used them even, and then specialized and buffed to abilities for our wanted playstile(fire mages had frost spells and frost mages could use arcane spells for example). Now you normally only get the abilities for you spec. You practically dont play the class but rather the spec...

    Off topic a little bit but this is one of the things I liked about modern WoW. Being able to freely swap between different specs was a joy for someone like me who loves filling multiple roles. In pre-wrath WoW this wasn't really possible without spending a ton of money on respeccing.
  • I don't think tutorials for each new skill type will be helpful.

    1) As others have pointed out with augments it could change how a skill is used so either the tutorial would be useless or you need a tutorial for every possible augment you could use for a skill, which is time consuming both for developers and for players and irritating as well.

    2) If a player is a higher level and doesn't have a specific skill it could be either because of play preference or they might not know a skill exists or overlooked it.

    If it is a play style preference, adapt to their play style or remove them from the group and go find someone that plays in a way you are more comfortable with.

    If they are unaware of the skill this is a moment you can use as a teaching guide in game if you have a higher class of the same type that does use that skill, this builds community interaction or you can mention they might want to look into getting it if its a quest/trainer skill. Either way in that moment is also causes you to have to use other techniques which is also beneficial.

    Not every player is going to be optimal, if you are not in a world first guild or going for a world first/competitive run that is okay. Hopefully there will be multiple builds and paths to success for dungeons and raids and there is enough of a community that doesn't follow the "Play x class y way or gtfo" that other builds and ideas have a place in the game.
  • consultantconsultant Member
    edited June 27
    Well this was while back like in Cataclysm so..... Think using in game content to train people is really good idea. But this was just one prime example. The problem is pretty big. Any of you guys left wondering why x class does not use x skill.

    I get the do it yourself progression thing pretty obvious a lot of people are not doing it themselves though. But thanks for all your posts gents and ladies. Some if them real insightful.
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    @dygz times have changed my friend. I assume we're talking about modern WoW here in which case you no longer have to go to the trainer to buy your skills. Instead they get automatically added to your spell book as soon as you level up. So the hunter definitely will have the traps available but as I said, unless they used them while levelling I'm not surprised they don't know how to use them at max level.
    Yeah, I stopped leveling in WoW after Cataclysm.
    But, when I played NWO... a group was trying to cajol me to have my Wizard use Repel abilities instead of Ice abilities because that's what the cookie-cutter strategy called for. I was all, "I'm an Ice Wizard; not a Repel Wizard."
    Even if abilities are automatically placed in a person's arsenal, what matters is how the individual chooses to play their character. Which doesn't always have to be the most optimal. Just needs to be viable.

    I think there should be some options for people to respec, but I'm OG D&D enough to prefer that characters don't respec and play the role(s) they originally built: choose to either play an Ice Wizard or a Repel Wizard or go down the middle road.
    Kinda like in 5E in D&D my Sorcerer can choose Draconic origin or Shadow Origin, but not both and can't respec. My Cleric can only choose Knowledge domain or Trickery domain, but not both and can't respec.
    I think Ashes allowing some opportunities to respec secondary archetype is a good compromise.

    In Wizard101, we had players who conducted tutorials via podcasts - and we'd meet in-game for parties at the end of the live podcast. Tons of fun.
    In Landmark, we'd meet up for in-game tutorials... and party afterwards. Also, tons of fun.
    I'm hoping we have in-game community events like that - rather than relying on dev tutorials for how to use abilities.
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    consultant wrote: »
    Well this was while back like in Cataclysm so..... Think using in game content to train people is really good idea. But this was just one prime example. The problem is pretty big. Any of you guys left wondering why x class does not use x skill.

    I get the do it yourself progression thing pretty obvious a lot of people are not doing it themselves though. But thanks for all your posts gents and ladies. Some if them real insightful.

    Using in-game content is definitely the way to go, but blatantly obvious tutorials are NOT the best way of doing it, especially mid-way through the levelling process. You will get far better results by using more subtle methods. Have you ever played the Portal games? They are an example of tutorial content done well. See the following video for a more complete explanation:

  • noaaninoaani Member
    The whole thing with the Hunter and trap is probably be described by taking a cleric along to a dungeon in AoC and asking them to use their cleans ability that is specific to all cleric/X classes, and them saying they don't have it.

    Sure, the group can carry on without it, but it makes things harder. Also, everyone knows the cleric has it because all clerics have it.

    Should the group waste their time simply because the cleric that was bought along in part to cleanse the specific area either doesn't know his class abilities, or is refusing to use them for some reason, or should someone in the group educate said cleric about his class?

  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    noaani wrote: »
    The whole thing with the Hunter and trap is probably be described by taking a cleric along to a dungeon in AoC and asking them to use their cleans ability that is specific to all cleric/X classes, and them saying they don't have it.

    Sure, the group can carry on without it, but it makes things harder. Also, everyone knows the cleric has it because all clerics have it.

    Should the group waste their time simply because the cleric that was bought along in part to cleanse the specific area either doesn't know his class abilities, or is refusing to use them for some reason, or should someone in the group educate said cleric about his class?

    This mostly comes down to communication. If you expect a Cleric to know and use a certain ability in a dungeon, make sure they know that BEFORE going into the dungeon. So much toxicity in online games can be avoided by good communication, which is one of the reasons why manually created groups are far more successful than automated group finders.
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