Getting new skills

When a toon gets a neew skill instead of just getting it. There should be some scenerio that shows the intended use of that skill like a mages wall of force before they get it. I know this is spoon feeding and holding their hand but think it is better for toons to know the basics so they can be effective in a group. Playing with decent players in a raid or dungeoun or even easy content is a way beter experience than wiping all the time (not neccessarily all the time but you guys get the idea).

Some games have an NPC with voice overs during scenerios.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

georgeblack

Id like to see that in the later levels for a core class ability. Maybe a quest for one or two abilities per class.
Let's say 100 is max lv, when the player reaches 65 they should get to be in their prime with their class. A quest focused on those abilities sounds great to me.

Wandering Mist

@dygz times have changed my friend. I assume we're talking about modern WoW here in which case you no longer have to go to the trainer to buy your skills. Instead they get automatically added to your spell book as soon as you level up. So the hunter definitely will have the traps available but as I said, unless they used them while levelling I'm not surprised they don't know how to use them at max level.

Damokles

@dygz and there we have the problem of wows current playstile. We once had the abilities of every class spec for our use, used them even, and then specialized and buffed to abilities for our wanted playstile(fire mages had frost spells and frost mages could use arcane spells for example). Now you normally only get the abilities for you spec. You practically dont play the class but rather the spec...

Wandering Mist

damokles wrote: »

@dygz and there we have the problem of wows current playstile. We once had the abilities of every class spec for our use, used them even, and then specialized and buffed to abilities for our wanted playstile(fire mages had frost spells and frost mages could use arcane spells for example). Now you normally only get the abilities for you spec. You practically dont play the class but rather the spec...

Off topic a little bit but this is one of the things I liked about modern WoW. Being able to freely swap between different specs was a joy for someone like me who loves filling multiple roles. In pre-wrath WoW this wasn't really possible without spending a ton of money on respeccing.

StreetCornerPoet

I don't think tutorials for each new skill type will be helpful.

1) As others have pointed out with augments it could change how a skill is used so either the tutorial would be useless or you need a tutorial for every possible augment you could use for a skill, which is time consuming both for developers and for players and irritating as well.

2) If a player is a higher level and doesn't have a specific skill it could be either because of play preference or they might not know a skill exists or overlooked it.

If it is a play style preference, adapt to their play style or remove them from the group and go find someone that plays in a way you are more comfortable with.

If they are unaware of the skill this is a moment you can use as a teaching guide in game if you have a higher class of the same type that does use that skill, this builds community interaction or you can mention they might want to look into getting it if its a quest/trainer skill. Either way in that moment is also causes you to have to use other techniques which is also beneficial.

Not every player is going to be optimal, if you are not in a world first guild or going for a world first/competitive run that is okay. Hopefully there will be multiple builds and paths to success for dungeons and raids and there is enough of a community that doesn't follow the "Play x class y way or gtfo" that other builds and ideas have a place in the game.

consultant

Well this was while back like in Cataclysm so..... Think using in game content to train people is really good idea. But this was just one prime example. The problem is pretty big. Any of you guys left wondering why x class does not use x skill.

I get the do it yourself progression thing pretty obvious a lot of people are not doing it themselves though. But thanks for all your posts gents and ladies. Some if them real insightful.

Dygz

wanderingmist wrote: »

@dygz times have changed my friend. I assume we're talking about modern WoW here in which case you no longer have to go to the trainer to buy your skills. Instead they get automatically added to your spell book as soon as you level up. So the hunter definitely will have the traps available but as I said, unless they used them while levelling I'm not surprised they don't know how to use them at max level.

Yeah, I stopped leveling in WoW after Cataclysm.
But, when I played NWO... a group was trying to cajol me to have my Wizard use Repel abilities instead of Ice abilities because that's what the cookie-cutter strategy called for. I was all, "I'm an Ice Wizard; not a Repel Wizard."
Even if abilities are automatically placed in a person's arsenal, what matters is how the individual chooses to play their character. Which doesn't always have to be the most optimal. Just needs to be viable.

I think there should be some options for people to respec, but I'm OG D&D enough to prefer that characters don't respec and play the role(s) they originally built: choose to either play an Ice Wizard or a Repel Wizard or go down the middle road.
Kinda like in 5E in D&D my Sorcerer can choose Draconic origin or Shadow Origin, but not both and can't respec. My Cleric can only choose Knowledge domain or Trickery domain, but not both and can't respec.
I think Ashes allowing some opportunities to respec secondary archetype is a good compromise.

In Wizard101, we had players who conducted tutorials via podcasts - and we'd meet in-game for parties at the end of the live podcast. Tons of fun.
In Landmark, we'd meet up for in-game tutorials... and party afterwards. Also, tons of fun.
I'm hoping we have in-game community events like that - rather than relying on dev tutorials for how to use abilities.

Wandering Mist

consultant wrote: »

Well this was while back like in Cataclysm so..... Think using in game content to train people is really good idea. But this was just one prime example. The problem is pretty big. Any of you guys left wondering why x class does not use x skill.

I get the do it yourself progression thing pretty obvious a lot of people are not doing it themselves though. But thanks for all your posts gents and ladies. Some if them real insightful.

Using in-game content is definitely the way to go, but blatantly obvious tutorials are NOT the best way of doing it, especially mid-way through the levelling process. You will get far better results by using more subtle methods. Have you ever played the Portal games? They are an example of tutorial content done well. See the following video for a more complete explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_AsF3Rfw8w

Noaani

The whole thing with the Hunter and trap is probably be described by taking a cleric along to a dungeon in AoC and asking them to use their cleans ability that is specific to all cleric/X classes, and them saying they don't have it.

Sure, the group can carry on without it, but it makes things harder. Also, everyone knows the cleric has it because all clerics have it.

Should the group waste their time simply because the cleric that was bought along in part to cleanse the specific area either doesn't know his class abilities, or is refusing to use them for some reason, or should someone in the group educate said cleric about his class?

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

The whole thing with the Hunter and trap is probably be described by taking a cleric along to a dungeon in AoC and asking them to use their cleans ability that is specific to all cleric/X classes, and them saying they don't have it.

Sure, the group can carry on without it, but it makes things harder. Also, everyone knows the cleric has it because all clerics have it.

Should the group waste their time simply because the cleric that was bought along in part to cleanse the specific area either doesn't know his class abilities, or is refusing to use them for some reason, or should someone in the group educate said cleric about his class?

This mostly comes down to communication. If you expect a Cleric to know and use a certain ability in a dungeon, make sure they know that BEFORE going into the dungeon. So much toxicity in online games can be avoided by good communication, which is one of the reasons why manually created groups are far more successful than automated group finders.

neuroguy

The hunter without a trap or priest without cleanse examples just seem like they are in the setting of a dungeon finder which I take a few issues with:

1. In AoC, if you are in a dungeon with someone, i.e. took the time to group up and travel together to the dungeon, chances are you or someone else in the party has had sufficient experience with them to know their skill level and the missing skills would likely be remedied.
2. Again, the setting sounds like a random group in a dungeon... you can't make demands of efficiency of strangers in an unorganized run. This is not your guild scheduled dungeon/raid, interact with your party members and figure out what you can do (does nobody remember going into a dungeon and simply not being able to get past a certain boss because of gear/level/skill?). I think that's fine, it may be frustrating in the moment but it preserves how epic the content feels and motivates players to get better and not just better gear. In general, people's expectations should be curbed a little bit from random dungeon finders where you show up, don't say a word and expect a clean and fast clear.
3. It sounds like some of you want players to have a similar understanding of their class, how their class is supposed to be played and just "do their job". Again, I've described in length in above comments how the existence of augments and all of the systems that provide you with various augments, make this more or less a moot point.
4. The most important thing here is that you are forcing an otherwise social part of playing/learning to become this automated scripted and soulless process just because you don't want to deal with players that are not optimal. Telling that hunter about their trap skill and how to use their trap is going to be rewarding for both you and the hunter (I promise) and will form bonds and relationships. I remember in WoW people teaching me lots of shit and vice versa. Now (from what I hear) they have helper NPCs follow you in your starting zone making sure you don't make any newbie mistakes but that removes the opportunity for someone to see a warrior dual wielding wands and sending them a helpful whisper. Like I get that you don't want your dungeon ruined by a newbie who doesn't even use core class mechanics, but then don't do dungeons with randoms or learn to be helpful and accept that your experience will be "suboptimal" but I'd argue more rewarding and organic.
5. A minor point but these scripted and automated tutorials will also take away development time from content.

Ultimately, I don't want AoC to be soulless where everyone knows how to play their class (because there are only a few valid/optimal ways to do so), knows their skill rotation and the only distinguishing factor is what ilevel gear they have... leave room for learning and being bad and experimenting. I want a guild to recruit me for more than just some linked achievements and ilevel. I want to be unable to complete dungeons and have to come back another time or with a different group. I want to learn things about the world and my class from PEOPLE and not a pop-up or tutorial.

consultant

Well it would not be a waste of time to stop and teach some one somethng. If they learn it. Especially with no instant que if you spend time developing a player then hey might as well play them again cause you do not have to teach another cleric the same thing. So because there is no instant que means you will most likely meet that person again and may even. Be thankful that you took the time to show them a thing or two.

Mike Preach said in a video that He used to be against carrying less skilled people but he changed his mind cause for the most part they get a lot better over time. So just better to take 2 minutes to train. Plus with the instant que then it just benifits to train people just to have a larger pool of people to play with. But if you are never going to see that person again in game well............

Dygz

It's not really the same thing as Cleanse.
Trap is listed as a Survival Hunter spell - which means a Beastmaster Hunter or Marksmanship Hunter might not want to include a Freeze Trap in their build... especially for RP purposes. Especially since the example was from Cataclysm - before spells were auto-placed in every build.
As a Beastmaster, freeze traps are practically the same as Ice Prison in terms of not fitting the motif.

In Ashes, every Cleric is going to spend 20 levels with Cleanse, so probably quite a stretch to RP that the character doesn't have that spell. Might be that a Shadow Disciple or Scryer could have background reasons to no longer use Cleanse, I suppose.
The equivalent in Ashes would be like knowing that a Scion should have an Ice Prison augment for Snare but they refuse to use it. Or, maybe a Falconer or Bowsinger stop using Snare to focus more on their Falcon pet or Bard-like abilities for some RP reason. I don't know that my Vek Predator will be using Hail of Arrows or a bow at all once I grab the Rogue secondary archetype.
For the scenarios to match, it would have to be something that is typical for one subclass path that doesn't quite fit the theme of a different sub-class path.

@wanderingmist
Yeah. Frequently there is not a lot of communication while forming PUGs. People just try to find the main class to fill slots and then cajole the player(s) to respec according to meta expectations.
I expect that to be different in Ashes. When a horde of mobs comes crashing against our town, we aren't going to be turning help away just because they don't have the expected cookie-cutter builds.
Same for siege and caravan defense.

grisu

@consultant Do you need to make a thread for every single little detail? You are just repeating yourself, you could have combined this with class videos for example.

Wandering Mist

@consultant Again, your thoughts sound great in theory, but in practice they fall flat. I know this from experience, both in-game and as my job as a teacher. If someone comes up to me asking for advice then I will either give it, or tell them where to go to get their information. I have no problems doing that. However, I have learned that when you try to teach strangers things about the game more often than not they will throw it back in their faces. This is especially true when dealing with class-specific mechanics and you aren't playing the same class they are.

You could be the best player in the world but that doesn't matter, because to them you are a complete stranger playing a different class. They have no idea if you are actually giving them good advice, and chances are they don't want to listen anyway. When things go wrong in a PUG most of the time players look to blame their teammates first, rather than looking for their own mistakes. In their eyes, they are playing well and that it is their teammates who are causing the group to fail. Once a person gets into this mindset, you telling them (even with good intentions) how to play their class is just going to result in rage.

As for what Preach says about carrying teammates, yes there are some people who will learn from their mistakes. Others will just keep slamming their head against a brick wall and wonder why they get a headache. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for Preach and I love his content, but even he has admitted that he can't teach people who aren't willing to listen. I remember him saying in one of his videos that he used to try to force his guides on people in order to help them improve. This didn't go well at all, so now he just uploads his videos and lets the people who want to learn find them.

That is the essence of it. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn and those who do want to improve will seek out the information for themselves. In-game forced tutorials might help some people but I don't believe it is worth the development time to do when the community will do a far better job of it themselves.

Damokles

wanderingmist wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

@dygz and there we have the problem of wows current playstile. We once had the abilities of every class spec for our use, used them even, and then specialized and buffed to abilities for our wanted playstile(fire mages had frost spells and frost mages could use arcane spells for example). Now you normally only get the abilities for you spec. You practically dont play the class but rather the spec...

Off topic a little bit but this is one of the things I liked about modern WoW. Being able to freely swap between different specs was a joy for someone like me who loves filling multiple roles. In pre-wrath WoW this wasn't really possible without spending a ton of money on respeccing.

I also liked the idea to freely switch between specs, that is not the problem for me.

My problem with modern WoW is that Specs lost the overall class identity. It feels more as if you play the specialization instead of the class if you know what i mean. Specs dont have overarching gmaeplay based abilities anymore.

Rogues had all the ability to use poisons, or use evasion, or gouge, or blade flurry, or use fan of knifes. Now these abilities are spec locked and simply replaced with slightly different abilities or simply gone.

Fire Mages could slow with a low level frostbolt and then start kiting, while using arcane explosion on the run. No they dont even have these abilities anymore...

consultant

So you think it is not good to try to teach some one something because they are to proud to listen.
Well me on the other hand I will just sit there and listen to a player that is obviously worst than me hoping I might learn something new and thank him for it even if do not learn anything.

Besides teaching a class basic skills is different than teaching them how to play their class and what set up they should play. Played with many a mage that did not sheep in wow in pvp that is. How does that happen? but like one post said it was instant que. So I should not try to tell the mage to sheep the healer in order to win. Most of the time I got thanks. Or telling people not to stand in the fire. I think it is pretty easy to tell when someone needs a little help.

People that are in the same server would be more apt to accept help or advice. Guild Leaders Do this all time. Some people will reject it but others will not. You are making a blanket statement about every one that plays MMORPGs

Guess I choose tutorials but this post could of been. Some system needs to implemented to make sure new players master their basic skills. Really do not know how cleanse and survival hunter or it is just better not tell people how to us basic skills in a dungeoun has anything to do with educating people in a game. As a tank I would give advice players as needed do not remember people being negative.

The specific scenerio i chose was not about a hunter being negative. He actaully did not know this ability was in his spell book. He assured me of that. So it was not lack of cooperation just lack of knowledge. And you are telling me better not to teach it to him. Cause he is a stranger. Rather not wipe. Actaully did not wipe just big pull and always cut kind of close.

No I am not talking about going around at random inspecting a player and then telling him what he should do. We are talking about people in a group yes strangers cause of instant que but still in a group so understood we have to work together. Think your do not tell strangers how to play their class does not apply. Mainly cause I did it as a tank and it went fine. Was playing the role of a tank at the time.

Azryil

I don't have a problem with tutorials existing in a game to teach new players the basics, but I don't see a reason to hold their hand throughout the entire game. Their should be some level of exploration and personal advancement, and yes that can sometimes come in the for of other players telling you that you're doing it wrong followed by getting booted from a party. I also think that any tutorials that are added should be optional, there's no reason to force veteran players to sit through a tutorial teaching them something they do in their sleep.

Dygz

There's no need to try to force your view of how classes should be built on other players.
@wanderingmist shared a great observation and solution... post YouTube tutorials with your lessons and let other players choose to adopt those methods or not.
As I mentioned earlier, in Wizard101 we provided tutorials via podcasts - we'd have a guest who knew the ins-and-outs of the class share their in-depth knowledge. Then players had the freedom to adopt those methods or not. In Landmark, we would have in-game meet-ups to teach the finer points of Voxelmancy. And we would stream those tutorial sessions via twitch so that people who couldn't attend in game would be able to view the lessons later.

If you want to listen to some player telling you how you should be using Trap when you've already decided that Trap does not fit your vision of a Beastmaster Hunter, that's great. I guess I would listen as well, but I wouldn't be convinced to use Trap. And a tutorial wouldn't convince me to use Trap either.

You can tell a Mage to Sheep the healer if you want. It would have no bearing on my decision that my Mage doesn't use Sheep. A dev tutorial on how to use Sheep also would have no bearing on my decision to use it.
Should be a variety of other options for my Mage to disable the healer besides using Sheep.
The useful info, there, is to focus on disabling the healer first. And that's probably not going to come from a dev tutorial.
Probably won't be a dev tutorial to teach players not to stand in the fire. And, the people who do stand in the fire either feel they can compensate for the damage they receive while doing so or lack the real life dexterity or concentration to jump away while hitting their combat keys. The useful info there isn't "don't stand in the fire", rather it's "back away from the mob when its head moves back and it opens its mouth wide, so you can avoid the breath attack." That's about basic battle tactics, especially for that specific mob. That's different than trying to cajol other players into cookie-cutter class builds.

New players will master their basic skills via questing.
Players can hold tutorials epic mastery in-game for people who choose to attend or can post tutorials on twitch and YouTube.

consultant wrote: »

The specific scenario i chose was not about a hunter being negative. He actually did not know this ability was in his spell book. He assured me of that. So it was not lack of cooperation just lack of knowledge. And you are telling me better not to teach it to him. Cause he is a stranger. Rather not wipe. Actually did not wipe just big pull and always cut kind of close.

That ain't ya place!!

It's fine for you to ask someone to use an ability you think their class should have.
It isn't fine for you to try to cajole someone into using an ability you think they should have.
Sounds like you did not teach this person to use Trap. Sounds like he didn't start using Trap even after you told him it was in his spellbook and/or you weren't able to guide him into using it effectively for that encounter.
If you say, "Hey, do you have Trap? 'Cause that would be super-useful whenever the boss does xx!!" and the Hunter says, "I didn't even know I had Trap! Yeah, let's try that." Great.
But, I don't think in Ashes that's likely to happen with primary archetype abilities. I think that's more likely to happen with augments.

I would be more likely to ask if the person has Trap... and, if they haven't ever used Trap, figure out what they normally use and try to devise a winning strategy from that. Then, if that doesn't help us win, I'd try to guide them into using Trap to help us defeat the challenge(s).
I wouldn't be judging them for "not knowing the basics". And I wouldn't be expecting a dev tutorial to tell players how to use abilities that they don't even know are in their spellbook.

consultant

I see a lot of your post kind of go with the do it your self development process.....question what if you have a server with a lot of people that are not are doing it themselvse. If some one were to tell me Hey you got do 4 to 8 hours a week researching your class as a new player one that is new to MMOs I do not think I would lsiten.

So I should take chance of wiping cause it is not my place. not even try to make things easier for me cause it is not my place. Your right I did not teach him how to trap. So I guess you are focusin on my failed attempt. Kind of implicating I did not handle the situation right.

Thing Is am not trying to avoid a failed attemp. What the purpose of this post is having toons know their basic abilities through some type of system through tuturials or in game content or quests or some other system.

Point is there should not be max level toons that do not know how to use basic abilities.
Ashes of Creation low number of abilities so maybe not to big of a problem,

Really think some of your posts are a little off topic.

Child Item