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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
1. In AoC, if you are in a dungeon with someone, i.e. took the time to group up and travel together to the dungeon, chances are you or someone else in the party has had sufficient experience with them to know their skill level and the missing skills would likely be remedied.
2. Again, the setting sounds like a random group in a dungeon... you can't make demands of efficiency of strangers in an unorganized run. This is not your guild scheduled dungeon/raid, interact with your party members and figure out what you can do (does nobody remember going into a dungeon and simply not being able to get past a certain boss because of gear/level/skill?). I think that's fine, it may be frustrating in the moment but it preserves how epic the content feels and motivates players to get better and not just better gear. In general, people's expectations should be curbed a little bit from random dungeon finders where you show up, don't say a word and expect a clean and fast clear.
3. It sounds like some of you want players to have a similar understanding of their class, how their class is supposed to be played and just "do their job". Again, I've described in length in above comments how the existence of augments and all of the systems that provide you with various augments, make this more or less a moot point.
4. The most important thing here is that you are forcing an otherwise social part of playing/learning to become this automated scripted and soulless process just because you don't want to deal with players that are not optimal. Telling that hunter about their trap skill and how to use their trap is going to be rewarding for both you and the hunter (I promise) and will form bonds and relationships. I remember in WoW people teaching me lots of shit and vice versa. Now (from what I hear) they have helper NPCs follow you in your starting zone making sure you don't make any newbie mistakes but that removes the opportunity for someone to see a warrior dual wielding wands and sending them a helpful whisper. Like I get that you don't want your dungeon ruined by a newbie who doesn't even use core class mechanics, but then don't do dungeons with randoms or learn to be helpful and accept that your experience will be "suboptimal" but I'd argue more rewarding and organic.
5. A minor point but these scripted and automated tutorials will also take away development time from content.
Ultimately, I don't want AoC to be soulless where everyone knows how to play their class (because there are only a few valid/optimal ways to do so), knows their skill rotation and the only distinguishing factor is what ilevel gear they have... leave room for learning and being bad and experimenting. I want a guild to recruit me for more than just some linked achievements and ilevel. I want to be unable to complete dungeons and have to come back another time or with a different group. I want to learn things about the world and my class from PEOPLE and not a pop-up or tutorial.
Mike Preach said in a video that He used to be against carrying less skilled people but he changed his mind cause for the most part they get a lot better over time. So just better to take 2 minutes to train. Plus with the instant que then it just benifits to train people just to have a larger pool of people to play with. But if you are never going to see that person again in game well............
Trap is listed as a Survival Hunter spell - which means a Beastmaster Hunter or Marksmanship Hunter might not want to include a Freeze Trap in their build... especially for RP purposes. Especially since the example was from Cataclysm - before spells were auto-placed in every build.
As a Beastmaster, freeze traps are practically the same as Ice Prison in terms of not fitting the motif.
In Ashes, every Cleric is going to spend 20 levels with Cleanse, so probably quite a stretch to RP that the character doesn't have that spell. Might be that a Shadow Disciple or Scryer could have background reasons to no longer use Cleanse, I suppose.
The equivalent in Ashes would be like knowing that a Scion should have an Ice Prison augment for Snare but they refuse to use it. Or, maybe a Falconer or Bowsinger stop using Snare to focus more on their Falcon pet or Bard-like abilities for some RP reason. I don't know that my Vek Predator will be using Hail of Arrows or a bow at all once I grab the Rogue secondary archetype.
For the scenarios to match, it would have to be something that is typical for one subclass path that doesn't quite fit the theme of a different sub-class path.
@wanderingmist
Yeah. Frequently there is not a lot of communication while forming PUGs. People just try to find the main class to fill slots and then cajole the player(s) to respec according to meta expectations.
I expect that to be different in Ashes. When a horde of mobs comes crashing against our town, we aren't going to be turning help away just because they don't have the expected cookie-cutter builds.
Same for siege and caravan defense.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
You could be the best player in the world but that doesn't matter, because to them you are a complete stranger playing a different class. They have no idea if you are actually giving them good advice, and chances are they don't want to listen anyway. When things go wrong in a PUG most of the time players look to blame their teammates first, rather than looking for their own mistakes. In their eyes, they are playing well and that it is their teammates who are causing the group to fail. Once a person gets into this mindset, you telling them (even with good intentions) how to play their class is just going to result in rage.
As for what Preach says about carrying teammates, yes there are some people who will learn from their mistakes. Others will just keep slamming their head against a brick wall and wonder why they get a headache. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for Preach and I love his content, but even he has admitted that he can't teach people who aren't willing to listen. I remember him saying in one of his videos that he used to try to force his guides on people in order to help them improve. This didn't go well at all, so now he just uploads his videos and lets the people who want to learn find them.
That is the essence of it. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn and those who do want to improve will seek out the information for themselves. In-game forced tutorials might help some people but I don't believe it is worth the development time to do when the community will do a far better job of it themselves.
I also liked the idea to freely switch between specs, that is not the problem for me.
My problem with modern WoW is that Specs lost the overall class identity. It feels more as if you play the specialization instead of the class if you know what i mean. Specs dont have overarching gmaeplay based abilities anymore.
Rogues had all the ability to use poisons, or use evasion, or gouge, or blade flurry, or use fan of knifes. Now these abilities are spec locked and simply replaced with slightly different abilities or simply gone.
Fire Mages could slow with a low level frostbolt and then start kiting, while using arcane explosion on the run. No they dont even have these abilities anymore...
Well me on the other hand I will just sit there and listen to a player that is obviously worst than me hoping I might learn something new and thank him for it even if do not learn anything.
Besides teaching a class basic skills is different than teaching them how to play their class and what set up they should play. Played with many a mage that did not sheep in wow in pvp that is. How does that happen? but like one post said it was instant que. So I should not try to tell the mage to sheep the healer in order to win. Most of the time I got thanks. Or telling people not to stand in the fire. I think it is pretty easy to tell when someone needs a little help.
People that are in the same server would be more apt to accept help or advice. Guild Leaders Do this all time. Some people will reject it but others will not. You are making a blanket statement about every one that plays MMORPGs
Guess I choose tutorials but this post could of been. Some system needs to implemented to make sure new players master their basic skills. Really do not know how cleanse and survival hunter or it is just better not tell people how to us basic skills in a dungeoun has anything to do with educating people in a game. As a tank I would give advice players as needed do not remember people being negative.
The specific scenerio i chose was not about a hunter being negative. He actaully did not know this ability was in his spell book. He assured me of that. So it was not lack of cooperation just lack of knowledge. And you are telling me better not to teach it to him. Cause he is a stranger. Rather not wipe. Actaully did not wipe just big pull and always cut kind of close.
No I am not talking about going around at random inspecting a player and then telling him what he should do. We are talking about people in a group yes strangers cause of instant que but still in a group so understood we have to work together. Think your do not tell strangers how to play their class does not apply. Mainly cause I did it as a tank and it went fine. Was playing the role of a tank at the time.
@wanderingmist shared a great observation and solution... post YouTube tutorials with your lessons and let other players choose to adopt those methods or not.
As I mentioned earlier, in Wizard101 we provided tutorials via podcasts - we'd have a guest who knew the ins-and-outs of the class share their in-depth knowledge. Then players had the freedom to adopt those methods or not. In Landmark, we would have in-game meet-ups to teach the finer points of Voxelmancy. And we would stream those tutorial sessions via twitch so that people who couldn't attend in game would be able to view the lessons later.
If you want to listen to some player telling you how you should be using Trap when you've already decided that Trap does not fit your vision of a Beastmaster Hunter, that's great. I guess I would listen as well, but I wouldn't be convinced to use Trap. And a tutorial wouldn't convince me to use Trap either.
You can tell a Mage to Sheep the healer if you want. It would have no bearing on my decision that my Mage doesn't use Sheep. A dev tutorial on how to use Sheep also would have no bearing on my decision to use it.
Should be a variety of other options for my Mage to disable the healer besides using Sheep.
The useful info, there, is to focus on disabling the healer first. And that's probably not going to come from a dev tutorial.
Probably won't be a dev tutorial to teach players not to stand in the fire. And, the people who do stand in the fire either feel they can compensate for the damage they receive while doing so or lack the real life dexterity or concentration to jump away while hitting their combat keys. The useful info there isn't "don't stand in the fire", rather it's "back away from the mob when its head moves back and it opens its mouth wide, so you can avoid the breath attack." That's about basic battle tactics, especially for that specific mob. That's different than trying to cajol other players into cookie-cutter class builds.
New players will master their basic skills via questing.
Players can hold tutorials epic mastery in-game for people who choose to attend or can post tutorials on twitch and YouTube.
That ain't ya place!!
It's fine for you to ask someone to use an ability you think their class should have.
It isn't fine for you to try to cajole someone into using an ability you think they should have.
Sounds like you did not teach this person to use Trap. Sounds like he didn't start using Trap even after you told him it was in his spellbook and/or you weren't able to guide him into using it effectively for that encounter.
If you say, "Hey, do you have Trap? 'Cause that would be super-useful whenever the boss does xx!!" and the Hunter says, "I didn't even know I had Trap! Yeah, let's try that." Great.
But, I don't think in Ashes that's likely to happen with primary archetype abilities. I think that's more likely to happen with augments.
I would be more likely to ask if the person has Trap... and, if they haven't ever used Trap, figure out what they normally use and try to devise a winning strategy from that. Then, if that doesn't help us win, I'd try to guide them into using Trap to help us defeat the challenge(s).
I wouldn't be judging them for "not knowing the basics". And I wouldn't be expecting a dev tutorial to tell players how to use abilities that they don't even know are in their spellbook.
So I should take chance of wiping cause it is not my place. not even try to make things easier for me cause it is not my place. Your right I did not teach him how to trap. So I guess you are focusin on my failed attempt. Kind of implicating I did not handle the situation right.
Thing Is am not trying to avoid a failed attemp. What the purpose of this post is having toons know their basic abilities through some type of system through tuturials or in game content or quests or some other system.
Point is there should not be max level toons that do not know how to use basic abilities.
Ashes of Creation low number of abilities so maybe not to big of a problem,
Really think some of your posts are a little off topic.
I don't believe what I wrote has much to do with a "do it yourself development process", as you describe. I don't think I talked about that at all.
I said a dev tutorial for each skill isn't the solution for learning about new skills.
No one has to research 4 to 8 hours a week to learn about their class. The person in your example apparently felt they were doing just fine even if they didn't know about Trap. And, you were still able to defeat the challenge(s) despite it being not as easy you think it could have been if that person had used Trap proficiently.
It's fine to suggest to your partner that they should use Trap if you think using Trap would make defeating the challenge easier.
But, it's not your place to try to cajole that player into playing their character the way you want them to play their character rather than the way they like to play their character.
Whether you take a chance of wiping because they don't use Trap is up to you. You said that you're not trying to avoid a failed attempt, so seems like you have no complaint about taking that chance. I didn't implicate that you didn't handle the situation right, I stated that you indicated you completed that adventure successfully even though that person did not effectively use Trap. You asked "better not to teach him?" And I responded that it seems as though you didn't teach him, but you succeeded anyway.
Which means that his knowledge of Trap was not as crucial as you seem to believe it should be.
Whether a player knows how to use an ability is going to be up to each individual player - regardless.
There will be people who skip or ignore a dev tutorial. There will be people who experience the tutorial and still choose not to use the skill. There will be people who experience the tutorial and still do not understand how to use the skill effectively. Even if you try to teach someone how to use the skill, that doesn't mean they will learn how to use the skill effectively.
The point is, there are many reasons why a max level player might not know how to use what you consider to be a "basic skill". I shared the example that I didn't know how to use Repel spells as a max level Wizard in NWO because I was an Ice Wizard; not a Repel Wizard - even though there were people telling me I should be using Repel abilities in certain dungeons because those abilities were considered to be the most effective.
A dev tutorial on how to use Repel skills would not have changed my decision not to learn them.
I don't know that Ashes has "a low number of abilities" per se.
Ashes will have a comparatively low number of abilities on the combat toolbar.
I don't think that will stop some people from thinking that everyone in a particular primary archetype should have a specific "basic ability" on the toolbar or at least know how to use that "basic ability" regardless of whether the player is interested in using that "basic ability" for that specific character.
For example, if the trap is an ability that every ranger has access to regardless of what choices they make, I would expect them to know how to use that ability. If however the trap is an optional ability that has to be selected, I wouldn't demand that they take it and use it for the dungeon unless absolutely necessary.
What really annoys me is when players look at my character build choices and go "omg you noob why aren't you using [insert optimal setup here] instead?" Or they flat out just kick me from the group for not having the "optimal" build for whatever we're doing. What's the point in having options if you aren't allowed to use them?
All abilities are optional. If someone has reached max level without some kind of paid for level booster, they know how to play their characters well enough and it’s not up to other people to tell them how they should be using their abilities.
It’s fine to offer suggestions, of course.
Just because Trap is available to all Hunters doesn’t mean all Hunters think the Freeze theme is appropriate for their vision of a
Beastmaster.
That might make some obstacles more challenging but that RP also makes for greater immersion and a better story. That’s part of the RP portion of RPG.
Especially for Ashes, what I care about is figuring out how to get the most out of the abilities we like to use. Doesn’t matter whether it’s a “base ability” or an optional ability - they are all optional.
Hopefully, we will be able to find ways to use the class abilities and augments we like to complement the weapon combos we like to use to best effect.
But, yeah, lots of gamers care more about the quickest, most efficient builds for the very least amount of wiping.
I care more about playing the roles individual players choose to play - because the entire reason I play RPG is because I’m interested in the creative role play of other players.
If I'm forming a party where I know CC is going to be a necessity I'm going to make sure to bring classes that offer the needed CC. I don't remember off hand if it's still true but for a while Freezing trap was one of the few long duration CCs that wasn't restricted by the type of mob. Sheep only worked on humanoids and beats Sap only worked on Humanoids, beasts, dragonkin, and demons, etc.. You're arguing for the leader of every group should devise a strategy to work around each individual players preferred role play fantasy, in a case like this the better strategy would be to not bring that player because they don't fill the role I need them for. That being said I can't foresee any group leader asking every member of their party if there are certain skills they refuse to use before getting invited to the party. Classes bring utility to the party, and they are expected to know how to use that utility correctly.
An experienced RP player DOES NOT think like that. I was friends with many RP players in Tera and Last Chaos. They would NEVER join a group and drag them down just because they wanted to RP. People that you describe would get an instant kick from any group that is trying to accomplish something, possibly the guild they were in, and be labeled as trolls.
I'm not sure I even have a concept like "trying to accomplish something".
What I try to accomplish in RPGs is hanging out with other players, learning about how they have built their characters and finding ways to defeat content with the characters they have built... in addition to socializing and partying when possible.
I'm arguing that leaders should know or learn how the individuals in their groups like to play their characters rather than demanding that everyone conform to cookie-cutter expectations.
More importantly, I'm stating that individual character builds should more often than not be viable and that the winning strategies should be more about knowing how to complement the strengths and weaknesses of the abilities, augments and gear your other teammates like to use rather than trying to force everyone to conform to cookie-cutter builds.
I haven't played a WoW Hunter for very long so I don't really know for sure, but from what I've read, Freeze Trap is a Survival Hunter ability. But, yes, if I were going on an adventure where I thought Freeze Trap is crucial, I would make sure I included someone I know is an expert in Freeze Trap. Or at least bring a bunch of people I know love to use roots and snares. I wouldn't ask a Beastmaster Hunter to come along and then expect them to use Freeze Trap if Freeze Trap is not a Beastmaster Hunter ability. I also, wouldn't drop a Beastmaster Hunter just because no one else uses Freeze Trap. Rather, I would figure out how to win without Freeze Trap.
This is especially true for Ashes, where there can be several of a secondary archetype to shore up any deficiencies in a primary archetype. And, since advanced weapons can have up to 5 weapon abilities, we shouldn't be trying to restrict and dictate what weapon abilities individuals bring to a battle. Rather we should pay attention to how we can maximize the advantages those abilities bring to the group.
Because having a winning strategy should be more about understanding how to support each other regardless of the class abilities people think everyone in a class should always have on their toolbar, but rather understand how to boost the abilities people are using to best advantage.
If a Tank is a master of Bulwark instead a master of Cover, I'm going to devise strategies that use Bulwark to the best advantage, rather than try to work with Cover.
I would still expect individuals to know how to use the abilities they use to best advantage and/or be open to trying different tactics with the abilities they use if what they're doing proves to be ineffective.
I just don't expect them to have to use cookie-cutter builds or cookie-cutter tactics. Because that's not really the way RPGs were intended to be played.
I expect groups in RPGs -even MMORPGs- to be more like Marvel teams... X-Men, Avengers, Defenders... capable regardless of the permutations of the powers, rather than expecting teams to be some form of the Justice League powers: JSA, Teen Titans, Infinity Inc, etc.
Then is directed to go and trap let say 20 mobs. Maybe with some small reward for doing it like little more loot after mob is killed. It would be like an automatic quest that is hidden behind some icon. When you get the ability you just get a message that a new task is available.
In Neverwinter a few years ago I ran a small guild of about 20 people and we all treated each other like family. It was great. Then my co-leader brought in his little brother who I knew beforehand liked to role-play to a certain degree. He decided to play a guardian fighter (Which is a tank) as a melee dps, which did not bother me at the time.
We needed a tank to run a dungeon and he volunteered with (what we thought was) an understanding that he was needed to be a tank. He refused to work with us in any way. He would not pull adds, tank the first boss, use any CC abilities, or use Knight's Valor (which was required for soaking up damage for the team). This little prick was dead set on role-playing his particular character the way he wanted, rather than the way the team needed. His older brother and I were both pissed at this point and agreed to remove him and never allow him back. I found out later he joined an RP guild and tried the same crap. EVEN THE RP GUILD KICKED HIM. He quit playing after that and complained to his older brother that everyone is SO MEAN to him.
This is an example of a minority of RPers that exist that an average RPer loathes and will generally blacklist from certain communities. Don't expect others to just accept you in groups when you refuse to bring the utility your class would normally bring just because you want to play a certain way. Selfish people like that are not worth the air they breathe.
2: As I stated earlier, what you mean by role-playing and what I mean by role-playing probably aren't the same thing. When I refuse to use Repel Wizard abilities in NWO because I'm an Ice Wizard I'm still playing the role of a Wizard. My role in a group is to use my Ice Wizard abilities to the best benefit of the group. And, if I've made it max level clearing content with my Ice Wizard abilities, that means there should be a way for me to help a group clear any content without the use of Repel Wizard abilities.
I'm saying that a Tank should have many ways to Tank - especially in Ashes where we have 8 types of primary archetype Tanks. I'm not saying that it should be OK for an individual Tank should character act refusing to tank for the group. I'm saying that it should be OK for a Tank to refuse to use Harpoon because they focus on using Bulwark and Shield and Cover. And that focus on Shielding rather than Harpooning should still result in a viable winning strategy, even if it might be more efficient or quicker if the Tank used Harpoon.
Again, especially in Ashes, if you want someone along who's going to use Harpoon, you might want to bring along a player with some form of Harpoon augment from the Tank secondary archetype or several people with that augment, if your main Tank doesn't use Harpoon.
My expectation for Ashes is that we will most commonly be grouping with people with whom we live in our Nodes - and by max level, we will know what abilities they most commonly like to use.
Defending our Nodes from sieges and monster coin attacks... who fights beside us not going to be determined by whether or not they use the abilities we think every individual in their class should use.
We will start figuring out who we like to group with - due to personality, temperament, playstyle and combat prowess. And it should be fairly easy for us to group with those people because we will know where their houses and freeholds are and we will know who tends to be online and in the town/city when we are.
On the one-hand, you state that the person in your example chose to role-play "a certain type of character" and that he liked to "roleplay to a certain degree" - which seems to be referring to character acting - but you don't give clear examples of how that's relevant to the issue.
What seems relevant is that you assumed the combat role he was going to play would be tank, while he had decided that his role was melee dps. And he insisted on playing melee dps instead of tanking. You say that it did not bother you that he chose to play Guardian Fighter as melee dps, but then you call him a prick when plays that way when you suddenly want him to tank. That is kinda bizarre.
Doesn't seem to me that he's the prick since you already knew upfront how he plays Guardian Fighter.
I don't understand why you expected him to tank.
3: What I found regarding WoW Hunters and Freeze Trap is that Freeze Trap is a skill in the Survival Hunter path. And I'm saying that a Hunter who doesn't know about Freeze Trap might not know about it because that individual is focused on being the best Beastmaster and he feels Freeze Trap does not align with that. That should be fine as long as he's reasonably good in his role of Beastmaster.
If I'm playing a Necromancer in Ashes, don't expect me to use Beastmaster abilities... I'm not going to do that because that's not the role I'm playing. I might not even use "basic" Summoner abilities if I'm convinced that my Necromancer abilities are sufficient. And my Necromancer abilities should be proficient if I've reached max character level without a paid for level booster. I should have gear and augments that maximize my Necromancer abilities. And, instead of you trying to cajole me into using abilities you think every Summoner should use, we should be checking to see how we can best leverage my Necromancer abilities to work with abilities others in the group use. I expect that to be relatively easy to do since by max level, we should be using advanced weapons that cycle through weapon combos to an ultimate - and it should be easy to devise strategies that take best advantage of those combos.
Combat should be more about knowing how to fight - like individuals maximizing the effects of each other's combos and abilities - than using one specific ability.
4: If I have built my Tank to excel at CC and pulling adds, there shouldn't be a complaint that I'm not taking the role to fight the primary boss. The role for my Tank is adds and cc; not fighting the primary boss.
Just like, I'm going to be upfront in my character acting and communication about being a Necromancer rather than a Beastmaster or an Ice Wizard rather than a Repel Wizard, I'm also going to be upfront about being a cc Tank rather than a soak Tank. We should still be able to find a way to defeat the content even if I am a cc Tank instead of a soak Tank - even if soak Tank is the most efficient and quickest way to defeat the content.
There should be no content designed where it's not possible to defeat if Freeze Trap is not used. There should be no content designed where it can't be defeated with the help of an Ice Wizard instead of a Repel Wizard.
Even we're fighting a Winter Dragon that is resistant to Ice abilities, my Ice Wizard should still be able to find ways to aid the group in that battle without the need to use Repel abilities. Especially when I could be using weapons that don't rely on Ice abilities.
Even though Cleric is typically main healer, I would never expect a Cleric in Ashes who focuses on life drains to suddenly act as main healer. I'm not going to expect a Shadow Disciple to start playing like a High Priest just because we feel we need a High Priest to defeat the dungeon. Either I'm going to figure out how to make Shadow Disciple abilities work to help us defeat the content, or I'm going to go find a High Priest.
But, the Shadow Disciple should work fine.
5: Whether you bring class abilities that people normally bring is irrelevant - as long as you use class abilities that are effective at defeating the content... especially if you also bring the ability to leverage the abilities you bring to support the group.
The example we have of the Hunter who didn't know how to use Freeze Trap ends with the group being able to defeat the content without the use of Freeze Trap. Which is how content should be designed. That's not an example of someone refusing to cooperate, refusing to aid in the battle or being so inept in their role that the group fails to defeat the content as you attempt to illustrate in your example.
I don't think you've demonstrated that the individual was inept in his role of melee dps - you just assert that playing Guardian Fighter as melee dps instead of as a tank pissed people off.
6: Don't play with people you don't like to play with. Of course.