Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@toastinator if you expect players to get through without minimap indicators that's fine, but then you need another method to guide players. For example, if you give players directions like "go South West of here to find your target" then you need to give players a compass to use to navigate.
One thing that really annoyed me in WoW was when the quest text said "West of this location" and it was totally wrong.
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T ElfMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I remember in Alpha 0 there was a compass indicator, and there was a quest giving you directions like @wanderingmist described.
Formerly T-Elf
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AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
For the most part I think WoW did an ok job at describing where you needed to go for a quest objective before the implemented all the hand holding in Cata. through BC and Wrath I never felt I needed quest tracking addons to be able to find my objectives in a reasonable amount of time assuming I took the time to read the quest text.
I think, we can all agree, we want freedom of choice, when it comes to our UI.
Lets wait, untill we see it and then further disguss this issue
Also, if anyone has furter ideas about this topic and wants to share them, be free to do so here
I wouldn't mind hearing what people here think about handholding quests. And maybe an option to turn it off or on. Although I wouldn't really call it UI customization.
How do you define "handholding" quests?
@toastinator@wanderingmist I guess a quest that tells you exactly where to go either by quest marker or text. As opposed to having to figure it out with just basic directions (west, north-east near the village). Or the minimap just showing exactly what area a resource or monster is located.
I think you should discover these things by interacting with the world and / or other players.
Sorry for the late response.... I've been getting 502 errors on the forums lately for some reason
[EU] Hand of Unity | PVX | Semi-Hardcore/Hardcore | Family
We are still recruiting. Come and have a chat with us at our Discord!
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think, we can all agree, we want freedom of choice, when it comes to our UI.
Lets wait, untill we see it and then further disguss this issue
Also, if anyone has furter ideas about this topic and wants to share them, be free to do so here
I wouldn't mind hearing what people here think about handholding quests. And maybe an option to turn it off or on. Although I wouldn't really call it UI customization.
How do you define "handholding" quests?
@toastinator@wanderingmist I guess a quest that tells you exactly where to go either by quest marker or text. As opposed to having to figure it out with just basic directions (west, north-east near the village). Or the minimap just showing exactly what area a resource or monster is located.
I think you should discover these things by interacting with the world and / or other players.
Sorry for the late response.... I've been getting 502 errors on the forums lately for some reason
Ok, I see where you are getting at here and agree somewhat. A lot of it comes down to what you want the focus to be on, and how you plan to challenge the player. If the focus is on exploration with the incentive to discover hidden things, etc then the quests should reflect that. It would be very weird and immersion-breaking if you were told that you were exploring an unexplored new land and yet knew exactly where to go to complete your quest.
On the other hand if the focus of the gameplay is more on overcoming difficult enemies, then giving vague directions on top of that will just be needlessly frustrating. In that scenario it makes more sense to give more accurate directions and it allows the player to focus more on the difficult combat than on finding their way around.
Ori and the Blind Forest is a perfect example of this. In that game, you have a very detailed map that becomes more visible over time, and your core objective is always shown on the map. This may seem like handholding until you realise that without those markers, you would just wander around aimlessly not knowing what to do or where to go. This is a problem because of the way the game blocks off areas of the map until you unlock the relevant ability to overcome it. The challenge the focus of the game is on getting through the puzzles and traps to reach your objective, rather than figuring it all out on your own.
I dont think we need quest indicators in game as that would lead to too easy design.
Leaving dots out of map will lead to players going as far as they can and only googling things when theyre stuck.
I hope we will get the possibility to scale, hide and move every single window on our screen.
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
I dont think we need quest indicators in game as that would lead to too easy design.
Leaving dots out of map will lead to players going as far as they can and only googling things when theyre stuck.
I hope we will get the possibility to scale, hide and move every single window on our screen.
If it was up to me I would design "lego" UI meaning you get sets of hotbars in which every slot can be snapped from any side with a different slot. This way players can build their own hotbars which have a custom shape.
Ofc. all windows on the screen can be moved.
For the map, I would give people a blank piece of paper with drawing accessories so people would need to draw their own maps as they discover the world
@jinxthegamer
I really want a scribe artisan class that makes maps.
Every player would start out with a rough sketch of the surrounding area of his starting node(the map would be something to equip and you would have to upgrade it with more sketches etc).
If you set up a new node, one of the first npcs will sell another scetch upgrade for the corresponding surroundings.
A scribe class player can in turn create detailed maps.
@jinxthegamer
I really want a scribe artisan class that makes maps.
Every player would start out with a rough sketch of the surrounding area of his starting node(the map would be something to equip and you would have to upgrade it with more sketches etc).
If you set up a new node, one of the first npcs will sell another scetch upgrade for the corresponding surroundings.
A scribe class player can in turn create detailed maps.
That could be an interesting choice when it comes to the profession design but personally, I would stick with giving people a hands-on raw experience of map creation. MMORPG never really involved players in the creation of anything and the creation of your own custom map would be a good starting point to immerse the players in the game
I think I will write an article here on the forum about player involvement and in-game design ideas which could help to bridge the gap between player and the game. Who knows maybe someone will like it
I think, we can all agree, we want freedom of choice, when it comes to our UI.
Lets wait, untill we see it and then further disguss this issue
Also, if anyone has furter ideas about this topic and wants to share them, be free to do so here
I wouldn't mind hearing what people here think about handholding quests. And maybe an option to turn it off or on. Although I wouldn't really call it UI customization.
How do you define "handholding" quests?
@toastinator@wanderingmist I guess a quest that tells you exactly where to go either by quest marker or text. As opposed to having to figure it out with just basic directions (west, north-east near the village). Or the minimap just showing exactly what area a resource or monster is located.
I think you should discover these things by interacting with the world and / or other players.
Sorry for the late response.... I've been getting 502 errors on the forums lately for some reason
Ok, I see where you are getting at here and agree somewhat. A lot of it comes down to what you want the focus to be on, and how you plan to challenge the player. If the focus is on exploration with the incentive to discover hidden things, etc then the quests should reflect that. It would be very weird and immersion-breaking if you were told that you were exploring an unexplored new land and yet knew exactly where to go to complete your quest.
On the other hand if the focus of the gameplay is more on overcoming difficult enemies, then giving vague directions on top of that will just be needlessly frustrating. In that scenario it makes more sense to give more accurate directions and it allows the player to focus more on the difficult combat than on finding their way around.
Ori and the Blind Forest is a perfect example of this. In that game, you have a very detailed map that becomes more visible over time, and your core objective is always shown on the map. This may seem like handholding until you realise that without those markers, you would just wander around aimlessly not knowing what to do or where to go. This is a problem because of the way the game blocks off areas of the map until you unlock the relevant ability to overcome it. The challenge the focus of the game is on getting through the puzzles and traps to reach your objective, rather than figuring it all out on your own.
@wanderingmist I haven't played that game myself, but I'll take your word for it And I see where you're coming from. Game mechanics should indeed support the direction the game wants a player to focus on. However, what do you do when a game is truly massive and it's activities are extensive? Usually MMORPG's are exactly that. In which case I reckon it would be good to give every player their own choice. Which is why I'd like to see "handholding" quests and minimap settings that support that.
Having said that, none of these settings would do any good if the world isn't able to direct players to the right location by interacting with it. So it requires some additional attention in lore, dialogue and more (which is also why I was slightly hesitant to bring it up in this discussion). Definitely an interesting view though, I enjoyed reading it.
I dont think we need quest indicators in game as that would lead to too easy design.
Leaving dots out of map will lead to players going as far as they can and only googling things when theyre stuck.
I hope we will get the possibility to scale, hide and move every single window on our screen.
If it was up to me I would design "lego" UI meaning you get sets of hotbars in which every slot can be snapped from any side with a different slot. This way players can build their own hotbars which have a custom shape.
Ofc. all windows on the screen can be moved.
For the map, I would give people a blank piece of paper with drawing accessories so people would need to draw their own maps as they discover the world
@jinxthegamer Drawing your own map mechanic would definitely be interesting. But also very tedious to, I think, a lot of players. Having a map is expected in big games and without it, navigating would probably be near impossible (unless the world is very well designed). So if a mechanic like this would be in any game. I think a "Scribe artisan class" like @damokles suggested would be an absolute requirement, because it would only give the burden of mapping to the players that would enjoy it. How this would interact with other professions or mechanics though, I'm unsure.
[EU] Hand of Unity | PVX | Semi-Hardcore/Hardcore | Family
We are still recruiting. Come and have a chat with us at our Discord!
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T ElfMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If it was up to me I would design "lego" UI meaning you get sets of hotbars in which every slot can be snapped from any side with a different slot. This way players can build their own hotbars which have a custom shape.
Ofc. all windows on the screen can be moved.
:
I agree with that part but I would prefer a map with fog-of-war that you can add markers for points of interest, mobs, etc.
@jinxthegamer Drawing your own map mechanic would definitely be interesting. But also very tedious to, I think, a lot of players. Having a map is expected in big games and without it, navigating would probably be near impossible (unless the world is very well designed). So if a mechanic like this would be in any game. I think a "Scribe artisan class" like @damokles suggested would be an absolute requirement, because it would only give the burden of mapping to the players that would enjoy it. How this would interact with other professions or mechanics though, I'm unsure.
It can be easily remedied by allowing people to share their maps and smooth things up, even more, by adjusting the level of initial detail on the map when you start the game, e.g. adding topography and marking roads but then players would need to fill the blanks when it comes to everything else.
I agree with that part but I would prefer a map with fog-of-war that you can add markers for points of interest, mobs, etc.
I feel like it would be to simple thus there would be no point of having custom maps in the first place but then it's all come down to testing different designs and playtesting
@toastinator@wanderingmist I guess a quest that tells you exactly where to go either by quest marker or text. As opposed to having to figure it out with just basic directions (west, north-east near the village). Or the minimap just showing exactly what area a resource or monster is located.
I think you should discover these things by interacting with the world and / or other players.
If bounty hunters can track Corrupted on their maps - which has been stated to be the case - there should also be mechanisms for players to track mobs and NPCs. Could be via Ranger or Rogue skills and augments or could be from the Thieves Guild or another Social or Religious Org.
That way, players who don't that kind of help can choose not to seek it out.
Just my 2 cents, here are the UI attributes I'd like to customize:
Scale
Position (please, no snappable grid - just free form placement)
Transparency
Click through & click on toggles
Visible & configurable floating combat text
Customizable cast bars and cool down timers (ala Gnosis & Weakauras)
Functional mob / npc / pc unit bars (ala tidyplates)
Orientation (horizontal v. vertical alignment for action bars, buffs, debuffs, party, raid, etc)
The ability to name the configuration (i.e. "HealyBars", Standard Fair, etc)
The ability to easily load a saved UI to any toon on my account
While I *love* being immersed in these games, coordinating threat, healing, and dps at scale in a raid context requires additional tools to manage the sheer amount of information and number of people. I'm willing to trade away some of the immersion for lack of frustration / complication.
@toastinator I hope the UI has a LOT of customization and adaptation. If there will be 0 addons It is a really important need to get the UI right. I know the UI is apoc and stuff is placeholder but I hope they stray far from what that is!
Don't worry if something will be missing from UI after game launches I'm sure they will add later.
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malisentMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
My big hope is mouse-over healing (casting a heal on a party member by mousing-over their name in the party window). Seems like every MMO I've played starts without that and then finally ends up adding it. As a healer, it's annoying to have to both mouse-click and then key-bind cast.
Lis | Play smarter, not harder.
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CaelronMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If bounty hunters can track Corrupted on their maps - which has been stated to be the case - there should also be mechanisms for players to track mobs and NPCs. Could be via Ranger or Rogue skills and augments or could be from the Thieves Guild or another Social or Religious Org.
That way, players who don't that kind of help can choose not to seek it out.
I think it would be amazing if it was basically required to hire (or use) a Ranger to track people.
At the very least, having to use a Ranger-tracking augment in some important slot.
If bounty hunters can track Corrupted on their maps - which has been stated to be the case - there should also be mechanisms for players to track mobs and NPCs. Could be via Ranger or Rogue skills and augments or could be from the Thieves Guild or another Social or Religious Org.
That way, players who don't that kind of help can choose not to seek it out.
The ranger special skill is "Track", with the description of "leading to unknown adventures", i see no reason why IS should not do more with this skill and turn it into a full out tracking skill for following enemies etc.
Comments
One thing that really annoyed me in WoW was when the quest text said "West of this location" and it was totally wrong.
Formerly T-Elf
I was thinking the same exact thing when the Topic of UI was spoken Lol. freaking old school WoW and the bazzilions of UI Add-ons xD
@toastinator @wanderingmist I guess a quest that tells you exactly where to go either by quest marker or text. As opposed to having to figure it out with just basic directions (west, north-east near the village). Or the minimap just showing exactly what area a resource or monster is located.
I think you should discover these things by interacting with the world and / or other players.
Sorry for the late response.... I've been getting 502 errors on the forums lately for some reason
[EU] Hand of Unity | PVX | Semi-Hardcore/Hardcore | Family
We are still recruiting. Come and have a chat with us at our Discord!
Ok, I see where you are getting at here and agree somewhat. A lot of it comes down to what you want the focus to be on, and how you plan to challenge the player. If the focus is on exploration with the incentive to discover hidden things, etc then the quests should reflect that. It would be very weird and immersion-breaking if you were told that you were exploring an unexplored new land and yet knew exactly where to go to complete your quest.
On the other hand if the focus of the gameplay is more on overcoming difficult enemies, then giving vague directions on top of that will just be needlessly frustrating. In that scenario it makes more sense to give more accurate directions and it allows the player to focus more on the difficult combat than on finding their way around.
Ori and the Blind Forest is a perfect example of this. In that game, you have a very detailed map that becomes more visible over time, and your core objective is always shown on the map. This may seem like handholding until you realise that without those markers, you would just wander around aimlessly not knowing what to do or where to go. This is a problem because of the way the game blocks off areas of the map until you unlock the relevant ability to overcome it. The challenge the focus of the game is on getting through the puzzles and traps to reach your objective, rather than figuring it all out on your own.
Leaving dots out of map will lead to players going as far as they can and only googling things when theyre stuck.
I hope we will get the possibility to scale, hide and move every single window on our screen.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
Yes please! XD
If it was up to me I would design "lego" UI meaning you get sets of hotbars in which every slot can be snapped from any side with a different slot. This way players can build their own hotbars which have a custom shape.
Ofc. all windows on the screen can be moved.
For the map, I would give people a blank piece of paper with drawing accessories so people would need to draw their own maps as they discover the world
I really want a scribe artisan class that makes maps.
Every player would start out with a rough sketch of the surrounding area of his starting node(the map would be something to equip and you would have to upgrade it with more sketches etc).
If you set up a new node, one of the first npcs will sell another scetch upgrade for the corresponding surroundings.
A scribe class player can in turn create detailed maps.
That could be an interesting choice when it comes to the profession design but personally, I would stick with giving people a hands-on raw experience of map creation. MMORPG never really involved players in the creation of anything and the creation of your own custom map would be a good starting point to immerse the players in the game
I think I will write an article here on the forum about player involvement and in-game design ideas which could help to bridge the gap between player and the game. Who knows maybe someone will like it
@wanderingmist I haven't played that game myself, but I'll take your word for it
Having said that, none of these settings would do any good if the world isn't able to direct players to the right location by interacting with it. So it requires some additional attention in lore, dialogue and more (which is also why I was slightly hesitant to bring it up in this discussion). Definitely an interesting view though, I enjoyed reading it.
@jinxthegamer Drawing your own map mechanic would definitely be interesting. But also very tedious to, I think, a lot of players. Having a map is expected in big games and without it, navigating would probably be near impossible (unless the world is very well designed). So if a mechanic like this would be in any game. I think a "Scribe artisan class" like @damokles suggested would be an absolute requirement, because it would only give the burden of mapping to the players that would enjoy it. How this would interact with other professions or mechanics though, I'm unsure.
[EU] Hand of Unity | PVX | Semi-Hardcore/Hardcore | Family
We are still recruiting. Come and have a chat with us at our Discord!
I agree with that part but I would prefer a map with fog-of-war that you can add markers for points of interest, mobs, etc.
Formerly T-Elf
I feel like it would be to simple thus there would be no point of having custom maps in the first place but then it's all come down to testing different designs and playtesting
I guess that's another thing to dd to the list of things WoW did worse than any other MMO in history.
That way, players who don't that kind of help can choose not to seek it out.
No mod needed because they can design fully customizable UI like ElvUI from WoW where you can change pretty much everything
They have said that the UI will be fully customizable
While I *love* being immersed in these games, coordinating threat, healing, and dps at scale in a raid context requires additional tools to manage the sheer amount of information and number of people. I'm willing to trade away some of the immersion for lack of frustration / complication.
I think it would be amazing if it was basically required to hire (or use) a Ranger to track people.
At the very least, having to use a Ranger-tracking augment in some important slot.
The ranger special skill is "Track", with the description of "leading to unknown adventures", i see no reason why IS should not do more with this skill and turn it into a full out tracking skill for following enemies etc.