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Archetypes: Summoner

eragaleeragale Member, Braver of Worlds
So I know i made a post about this a while back in the old forums ( the 2nd Version ). But seeing as though its now all wiped ... i might as well start things off with this Class.

While i do like the idea of Archetypes and there being Primary Archetype & Secondary Archetype ... some of the designs for these classes had me curious - I'm curious what is Intrepid's version of the Summoner will be " feel " like.

Of the 8 Archetypes ( or classes ), the Top 3 classes that troubles me are ... Summoner, Bard and Ranger

When compared to current MMORPGs, nearly every player has the exact same summoned-creature ( or pet ) and thus .. there's no diversity for this class. Why is it that every Summoner has the exact same " pet " in every MMORPG? Imo, it just makes the class bland. In my old post, I was very thorough in my points .. but I'm not even sure what Intrepid will do.

So its hard to truly say anything about it ( or any of the other Archetypes) until things progress further.

So what do you think?

Comments

  • georgeblackgeorgeblack Member
    edited June 26
    I believe that summons should be seperated in abilities based on their function and 2-3 skins per ability.

    Eg, frost summon. Slows, roots, damages. Skins:
    Wolf
    Bird
    Horse

    Flame summon. Damages, heals, buffs.
    Skins:
    Spirit
    Lion
    Bull whatever.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    edited June 27
    I really hope that the basic summoner is elemental based.



    Skillset:
    Summon Fire Elemental - summon a fire elemental for 1min, which will fight for you. CD: 1min
    Skill: Fireblast - Elemental blasts the enemy for x magic damage and ignites the target for 3sec. CD: 5sec

    Summon Earth elemental - summon an earth elemental for 30sec, that will fight for you. CD: 1min
    Skill: Earthen Might - Elemental taunts all enemies around it (max 4) and empowers itself for 5sec. CD: 12sec

    Summon Water elemental - summon a water elemtanl for 40sec, that will heal you and your allies. CD: 3min
    Skill: Healing Tide - Elemental heals all allies for x amount. CD: 10sec

    Summon Wind elemental - summon a wind elemental for 40sec, that will fight for you. CD: 3min
    Skill: Turbulent Wind - Blocks all incomming ranged projectiles for 5sec. CD: 40sec

    Elemental Rage - Empower all your elementals, increasing all their damage for 20sec, resetting all their summon timers and their ability cooldowns. CD: 5min
    uQHKizC.gif
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    Are we talking gameplay or aesthetic options here? If it's purely aesthetic then that is relatively simple to fix. However, if you are expecting a large number of pets all with different gameplay options, that will probably end badly.

    The best you can expect I reckon would be similar to taming hunter pets in WoW. The pets are separated into 3 different types (tenacity, ferocious and cunning) and animal families (wolves, raptors, cats, etc). Each type has a certain playstyle and each family has a single special ability.

    Expecting any more gameplay options than that is quite frankly unreasonable.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    In Ashes, the various Summoner sub-classes will summon different minions and different numbers of minions. Some will be limited to just one major minion, rather than being able to summon multiples.

    I'm hoping there will also be an ability to Unsummon other characters' Summoned minions.
    If so, I plan to max that ability.
  • noemadnoemad Member
    edited June 27
    Dygz wrote: »
    In Ashes, the various Summoner sub-classes will summon different minions and different numbers of minions. Some will be limited to just one major minion, rather than being able to summon multiples.

    I'm hoping there will also be an ability to Unsummon other characters' Summoned minions.
    If so, I plan to max that ability.

    I was hoping this is the way it would go. If my subclass is a ranger it doesn't make sense (to me at least) that I'd be summoning demons or imps or elementals. For a ranger subclass I should be summoning wolves, bears, etc. Maybe with a cleric subclass you summon divine (or infernal if your god\dess is of the evil variety) creatures. For me a mage subclass would summon elementals. I would think that the summoner with a summoner subclass would have the most variety in type of critters to summon and be able to summon more of them and more often.

    I'm not usually one to play a pet class because I don't like the amount of micromanaging them you have to do in some games. That said I might give it a go in Ashes.
  • eragaleeragale Member, Braver of Worlds
    Are we talking gameplay or aesthetic options here? If it's purely aesthetic then that is relatively simple to fix. However, if you are expecting a large number of pets all with different gameplay options, that will probably end badly.

    I was thinking of both ( and probably a little bit more than that )

    I was thinking of, at bare minimum, a choice out of 10 pets - all being used for multiple usage .. rather than each having 1 specific role

    ( think of Pokemon if it helps, but not really )

  • eragaleeragale Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 27
    Dygz wrote: »
    In Ashes, the various Summoner sub-classes will summon different minions and different numbers of minions. Some will be limited to just one major minion, rather than being able to summon multiples.

    I'm hoping there will also be an ability to Unsummon other characters' Summoned minions.
    If so, I plan to max that ability.

    yeah, but variety is what counts
    • if 5 Summoners-Archetype were to be compared to one another, i want mines to be different an unique - i don't want the next 5+ Summoners having the EXACT same pets ( or summoned-creatures ) as me. Imo, it'll break immersion easy. And i should not have to risk " being viable in raids " too
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Well, we can expect that a Beastmaster’s minions will be different than a Necromancer’s minions.
    We will have to see how unique individual Necromancer’s can make their minions in comparison to those of other Necromancers.
    For all we know, there could be racial, religious, social organization, regional and Node augments that add diversity.
    But, the devs have not said that yet.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    eragale wrote: »
    Are we talking gameplay or aesthetic options here? If it's purely aesthetic then that is relatively simple to fix. However, if you are expecting a large number of pets all with different gameplay options, that will probably end badly.

    I was thinking of both ( and probably a little bit more than that )

    I was thinking of, at bare minimum, a choice out of 10 pets - all being used for multiple usage .. rather than each having 1 specific role

    ( think of Pokemon if it helps, but not really )

    Hmm, ok. Again depending on how many abilities you expect the pets to have this might be totally unreasonable. Remember that the more gameplay options you give, the harder it is to balance. Add too many and you get an ESO situation of hundreds of different builds but only a handful that are actually used.
  • eragaleeragale Member, Braver of Worlds
    @wanderingmist
    well figured that it'll never come to that since its still in development stages - its best mentioned sooner than later, I suppose

    half empty, half full :\
  • consultantconsultant Member
    edited June 28
    The reason the same pet get used is because people are inclined to do a top dps build. It can even be called the top dps mentality. Really no way to get away from that. The devs may actuallly put some viable options on the table. For example if there is a fight were a caster needs to be interupped then a pet with a stun or similar ability might be better but most people do not use those of type builds.

    In my opinion players that change out pets to fit situations are better players but most go with the cookie cutter pet that they are told to use by some website. So even if the devs put some good options on the table players most likely to to just go with the top dps build.
  • eragaleeragale Member, Braver of Worlds
    consultant wrote: »
    The reason the same pet get used is because people are inclined to do a top dps build. It can even be called the top dps mentality. Really no way to get away from that. The devs may actuallly put some viable options on the table. For example if there is a fight were a caster needs to be interupped then a pet with a stun or similar ability might be better but most people do not use those of type builds.

    In my opinion players that change out pets to fit situations are better players but most go with the cookie cutter pet that they are told to use by some website. So even if the devs put some good options on the table players most likely to to just go with the top dps build.

    So what would you like for it to be like? Rather than conforming it to how other MMOs have done it?
  • eragaleeragale Member, Braver of Worlds
    eragale wrote: »
    Are we talking gameplay or aesthetic options here? If it's purely aesthetic then that is relatively simple to fix. However, if you are expecting a large number of pets all with different gameplay options, that will probably end badly.

    I was thinking of both ( and probably a little bit more than that )

    I was thinking of, at bare minimum, a choice out of 10 pets - all being used for multiple usage .. rather than each having 1 specific role

    ( think of Pokemon if it helps, but not really )

    Hmm, ok. Again depending on how many abilities you expect the pets to have this might be totally unreasonable. Remember that the more gameplay options you give, the harder it is to balance. Add too many and you get an ESO situation of hundreds of different builds but only a handful that are actually used.

    Think outside-the-box rather than trying to critique a suggestion.

    More importantly, disregard how other MMOs have done it and think of how you would do it? What would you suggest
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    edited June 28
    eragale wrote: »
    eragale wrote: »
    Are we talking gameplay or aesthetic options here? If it's purely aesthetic then that is relatively simple to fix. However, if you are expecting a large number of pets all with different gameplay options, that will probably end badly.

    I was thinking of both ( and probably a little bit more than that )

    I was thinking of, at bare minimum, a choice out of 10 pets - all being used for multiple usage .. rather than each having 1 specific role

    ( think of Pokemon if it helps, but not really )

    Hmm, ok. Again depending on how many abilities you expect the pets to have this might be totally unreasonable. Remember that the more gameplay options you give, the harder it is to balance. Add too many and you get an ESO situation of hundreds of different builds but only a handful that are actually used.

    Think outside-the-box rather than trying to critique a suggestion.

    More importantly, disregard how other MMOs have done it and think of how you would do it? What would you suggest

    It's all very well thinking "outside the box" but if that idea is going to be too hard to implement or balance there is little point in doing it. I am a huge believer in quality over quantity. Keep things simple and get them working to a high standard first, then expand outwards.

    The latest dev diary highlighted this very well. Every single unique pet you put into the game has to be individually designed, animated and coded for in a way that doesn't unbalance the rest of the game. That is a huge amount of work.

    I get what you are saying about everyone using the exact same pet making the class feel bland, but remember that there is a limit to how much you can put into the game at launch. Not only are a ton of pet options unpractical to develop for, but if non-summoner players see the summoners getting a huge number of gameplay options compared to them, they are going to start complaining, demanding more options across all the classes. We then get into a situation similar to WoW where every expansion players expected more class abilities to be added. Blizzard were forced to create new class abilities not because the classes needed them, but because the players demanded them. And of course the more abilities you give every class the closer to homogenisation you get.

    And no, I won't disregard what other mmorpgs have done because there is usually a reason why they do things they way they do. You can learn a hell of a lot by studying the different games and figuring out what works and what doesn't.

  • well guess I dealt with the OP question but not last sentence what do I think about it.
    Well would like this system.

    Get a pet or whatever you summon has standard abilities but can be trained to do 1 to 3 other things maybe more. Just one example let say a get a dog. Could teach it to growl and intimidate, pounce, and so on.

    But also teach it one magical ability like blink or hell fire breath make dust cloud.
    Really what this does two things one you can have limited customization with your pet demon whatever you summon.

    Two since you are the one that decides what special ability it has you are not tied down to a certian pet. Not tied down to top dps pet cause you can just make a top dps build with your pet if that is what is needed.

    Personally I just get tired of seeing the same pet out all the time just cause it is best choice. And if I pull out different pet for roleplaying purposes then I will have half the server telling me I have the wrong pet out. So this way you can have any skin you want too.
  • eragaleeragale Member, Braver of Worlds
    @wanderingmist
    The whole of point this thread is to think of what can be different and to not confide in how things have been

    If you constantly compare what this game could be with other MMOs, you'll end with more clones with " similar " gameplay

    Steven had already said that he's aiming for Ashes of Creation in being a ThemeBox MMORPG - so bare that in mind
    eragale wrote: »
    eragale wrote: »
    Are we talking gameplay or aesthetic options here? If it's purely aesthetic then that is relatively simple to fix. However, if you are expecting a large number of pets all with different gameplay options, that will probably end badly.

    I was thinking of both ( and probably a little bit more than that )

    I was thinking of, at bare minimum, a choice out of 10 pets - all being used for multiple usage .. rather than each having 1 specific role

    ( think of Pokemon if it helps, but not really )

    Hmm, ok. Again depending on how many abilities you expect the pets to have this might be totally unreasonable. Remember that the more gameplay options you give, the harder it is to balance. Add too many and you get an ESO situation of hundreds of different builds but only a handful that are actually used.

    Think outside-the-box rather than trying to critique a suggestion.

    More importantly, disregard how other MMOs have done it and think of how you would do it? What would you suggest


    And no, I won't disregard what other mmorpgs have done because there is usually a reason why they do things they way they do. You can learn a hell of a lot by studying the different games and figuring out what works and what doesn't.

    Yeah I know exactly what you mean - I linked multiple videos before the forums were wiped.





    So what?
    Do you have actual ideas or not?

    Because it seems you just want another clone with the exact same gameplay from other MMOs
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 28
    haha. I'm gonna try to stay out of the mess, but...

    Hopefully, in Ashes, summoned minions won't be all about dps. And, hopefully group content won't be all about dps.
    I'd like to see some Necromancer pets that are great at snares/roots: Skeletal Hands that reach from the ground to grab old of victims. Even just in terms of damage, I'd love to see summoned Zombie minions that deal damage via Zombie Rot and summoned Vampire minions that deal damage via life drains. Maybe summoned Banshee minions deal damage via psychic damage.
    And those are just examples within one subclass.

    Steven talks about putting the RP back in to the RPG portion of MMORPG, so... that's a great way to accomplish that. Rather than just having players focused on whatever does the most dps.

    Also, shouldn't be much of strain on the devs since there will be a wide variety of mobs created for the game in any case. A wide variety of undead from which Necromancers should have plenty of options, a wide variety of beasts from which Beastmasters should have plenty of options and a wide variety of blades from which Wild Blades should have plenty of options. Etc.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men
    The best I could hope for would be something like diablo 3
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Probably just gonna be bare bones for you.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    @eragale I could be completely wrong here but your OP comes across as the typical "I want this in the game" without considering how your suggestion will impact other people and the entire game.

    All I am doing here is pointing out that there are some simple realities that you need to keep in mind when suggesting things.

    Now don't get me wrong, I would love a game where my character is completely unique in their abilities, but I also know that that is totally unrealistic.

    Do I have any ideas or suggestions of my own? Yes, but I'm not going to randomly start suggesting things because I don't know enough about the rest of the game. This means that I don't know how my suggestion would impact the game.

    You'll notice that most of the threads I make on this forum involve asking questions of how people feel about certain situations rather than offering up my own ideas.

    This is just my personal view and I'm not expecting everyone to follow this philosophy.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    Oh and no, I don't want Ashes to turn into a clone of another mmorpg. I'm not actually playing any mmorpg right now because I have disliked every mmorpg I've tried in recent years. I'm hoping Ashes will bring back my interest in the genre again.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    I looked into the Summoner class again and it seems that we do actually know a ton about it already. xD

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Summoner

    "The summoner uses many abilities that channel through their summon. The summoner is essentially playing through their summon.
    Abilities from the summon appear on the summoner's hotbar.
    Summoner has control over their summon.
    Summoners will likely not be able to fuse with their summons (eidolons).
    Summons can be leveled through the application of skill points to their active skill."


    "Summoners summon different summons, depending on the class they choose.
    Animals.
    Spirits.
    Zombies, skeletons and other undead creatures.
    Corpses (potentially).
    Some summoners may summon multiple things.
    Other summoners may only summon one powerful thing.
    Certain summoners may only be able to summon effects and/or temporary energies."


    Augments from a secondary archetype can be applied to a summons.
    "For example: If your summon had a sweeping attack with a claw, or had the ability to bite an opponent, or rush an opponent; and you took teleportation, you could rush them similar to how I've given an example with the tank: Teleporting to a target instead. Or, its claws could combust on impact on a target dealing some burn damage that persists. Or... let's say your summon traditionally was some type of bear or bear cat, you could apply an elemental augment and now it could be a transparent flaming bioluminescent cat; and its damage would be fire based. So, that's how we want to influence the active skills with how augments apply; and that's how it would apply with Summoners."


    Summoners can change the appearance of their summons.
    Through in-game items.
    Through cosmetics that will be offered.
    uQHKizC.gif
  • eragaleeragale Member, Braver of Worlds
    Damokles wrote: »
    I looked into the Summoner class again and it seems that we do actually know a ton about it already. xD

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Summoner

    "The summoner uses many abilities that channel through their summon. The summoner is essentially playing through their summon.
    Abilities from the summon appear on the summoner's hotbar.
    Summoner has control over their summon.
    Summoners will likely not be able to fuse with their summons (eidolons).
    Summons can be leveled through the application of skill points to their active skill."


    "Summoners summon different summons, depending on the class they choose.
    Animals.
    Spirits.
    Zombies, skeletons and other undead creatures.
    Corpses (potentially).
    Some summoners may summon multiple things.
    Other summoners may only summon one powerful thing.
    Certain summoners may only be able to summon effects and/or temporary energies."


    Augments from a secondary archetype can be applied to a summons.
    "For example: If your summon had a sweeping attack with a claw, or had the ability to bite an opponent, or rush an opponent; and you took teleportation, you could rush them similar to how I've given an example with the tank: Teleporting to a target instead. Or, its claws could combust on impact on a target dealing some burn damage that persists. Or... let's say your summon traditionally was some type of bear or bear cat, you could apply an elemental augment and now it could be a transparent flaming bioluminescent cat; and its damage would be fire based. So, that's how we want to influence the active skills with how augments apply; and that's how it would apply with Summoners."


    Summoners can change the appearance of their summons.
    Through in-game items.
    Through cosmetics that will be offered.

    Yeah thats old news for me.
    I mean the juicy-bits - we need gameplay

    And so far I would things to be a bit different, but better compared to how others MMOs have done it
  • RaytekuRayteku Member, Braver of Worlds
    @damokles I was literally just about to post that myself if you hadn't already. Just to add to it I think the names of the classes kind of tell you what summons you'll have.

    Summon+

    Ranger = Beastmaster (Animals?)

    Tank = Brood Warden (Zerglings? lol... or something like them?)

    Summoner = Conjurer (Spirits?)

    Bard = Enchanter (maybe something mounts onto a character? Like Spirit armor for allies or leeches for enemies?)

    Cleric = Necromancer (Undead?)

    Rogue = Shadowmancer (The Shadow demons from the Movie ghost? Maybe they pull down enemies and try to strangle them?)

    Mage = Spellmancer (maybe elementals similar to the mages in WoW?)

    Fighter = Wild Blade (maybe spirit blades that hover around and swipe at enemies?

    Obviously this is all conjecture until publicly stated what we will have, but it's fun to brainstorm what they could be based on their name.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    @rayteku Steven said that Shadowmancers for examlle will summon... well... shadows ;) I imagine the Sha from World of Warcraft.
    386869.jpg
    uQHKizC.gif
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