Race and their Relationships

Good day to you dear Sir or Miss,

now, I know there are no pre-generated factions in Ashes of Creation, BUT I was wondering:
Will there be racism in the game?

Let me explain!

You know, how we all have been exposed to stories like Lord of the Rings, Warcraft and Warhammer lore? I think these ideas, presented in these different worlds are now embedded into our thinking and therefore, I think, there will be at least some kind of subconscious racism.
Now, this is all up to us to decide, to act upon those ideas.

So… I am curious. Will you be a racist in AoC? Will your dwarf despise elves? Will your Human hate Orcs? Or… Will your Empyrian just dislike Py'rai?
What are your ideas on this? Because, although it makes our everyday life miserable sometimes, racism and/or prejudices makes a fantasy world so much more interesting.

Yours,
DerToastinator

PS: I hope this post doesn’t get taken down for racism xD
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Comments

  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    Steven said that Tulnar will be racist to each other depending on their dominant race. ;D

    "Ewwwww, you are one of those lizardpeople are you not? Oh well you can see that i am a dark elf, so i will allow you to serve me!"
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  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old
    yes, if AOC is to remain on their realistic path this and other prejudices will need to be in place.
    I hate this subject IRL because I don't partake in any racism and in MMO my avatar is usually one to spread love and light (I'm a healer) to anyone.
  • T ElfT Elf Member, Braver of Worlds
    If it's not built into the game, role players will surely play with those ideas in mind when building their characters.
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    Formerly T-Elf

  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men
    Clearly everyone should be racist towards the Tulnar.
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  • T ElfT Elf Member, Braver of Worlds
    LOL Button!!!
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    Formerly T-Elf

  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    arzosah wrote: »
    Clearly everyone should be racist towards the Tulnar.

    Oi munchies should not talk!
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  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Braver of Worlds
    I look forward to meeting the tulnar haters in Verra.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    This is one of my favorite aspects of Tolkien's works, is the exploration of race relations between the various peoples of Middle Earth.
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  • georgeblackgeorgeblack Member
    edited July 3
    Never cared much for the "lowlife blah blah blah..." attitude.
    I much rather war and hatred between let's say d. elves and elves because of some dark magic crime.
    Or friendship between humans and elves because elves taught humans magic.

    Racism just because of different races is boring

    Nothing against keeping it real. Just dont make it a comic relief. There has to be a reason why some races have a grudge.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 2
    Quite a bit of racism towards the Tulnar already.
    Significantly different than the bit of racial tension between Dwarves and Elves I've seen so far.

    The racism in Tolkien's work is disgusting. Thankfully, D&D got rid of its systemic racism about 20 years ago, but it still lingers in games like WoW.
    It's great that the Ashes devs have no systemic racism in the Ashes mechanics.
  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    Mine won't be race based :smiley: I will hate on all bards just to listen to people scream
  • WololoWololo Member, Leader of Men
    Imo having a conflict between races; making them not like eachothere by default for something that happened in the past is fine and creates a storyline to branch quests off, some roleplaying etc. But if one race is seen inferior to all others simply because of the way they look, talk, think, theyr characteristics and so on i think that would reflect to much to the disgusting racism that is still going on in this modern world and i dont see how that brings any enjoyment to a game.
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  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    Dygz wrote: »
    Quite a bit of racism towards the Tulnar already.
    Significantly different than the bit of racial tension between Dwarves and Elves I've seen so far.

    The racism in Tolkien's work is disgusting. Thankfully, D&D got rid of its systemic racism about 20 years ago, but it still lingers in games like WoW.
    It's great that the Ashes devs have no systemic racism in the Ashes mechanics.

    I'm curious if you're willing to expand on your Tolkien opinion.
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  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 3
    @dygz
    And I asked YOU, I don't give a shit what some someone else says who ripped off a 2003 Chicago Tribune outrage-bait article about how Lord of the Rings is Anti-Islamic.

    If you can't form the reason in your own words, you haven't really thought it out enough to have an opinion on the issue.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 3
    You complain of baiting and yet accuse me of not being able to form the reason in my own words simply because I chose to provide you with links.
    If you're too blind to see the blatant racism in Tolkien's works on your own but you really want to know, I guess you can do your own research. I am under no obligation to explain it to you.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    The works of Tolkien have had more academic papers written about then than any written work of the last 500 years. The two links were not among such academic papers, and should at best be considered opinion pieces written by people that don't have the credentials to offer up anything more than an opinion.

    That first article specifically was as much about a writing trying sell his books as it was a serious complaint about Tolkien.

    If someone were to use just those articles to form an opinion of their own, and not look at the wealth of actual well researched papers on the subject out there, I would say they are doing themselves a dis-service by not looking in to the matter fully (and anyone that looked in to the matter fully would have better papers to link than the above to support an argument that there was racism), and most likely had a pre-conceived notion of (or at least a pre-existing lean towards) seeing racism where it doesn't exist.

    ---

    From a lore perspective, I'd like to think that the non-Tulnar races would be somewhat amicable towards each other. They have been living together for thousands of years, and are close enough that the portals to Verra are essentially race agnostic. This says to me that the races are somewhat evenly spread out on the other side of those portals, which would suggest a certain amount of racial harmony.

    The Tulnar though, they are new. They are different. I'd expect to see a fairly high amount of racism towards them.

    However, as a player, I'd much rather be able to hate on an individual because of the individual, rather than because of their race.
  • toastinatortoastinator Member
    edited July 3
    @georgeblack
    You are right, if there is tension because of previous events, the conflict feels more real.
    It also provides the player with more information due to, why these races could be hostile or why they could have a healthy relationship.
    Although i also don’t want racism based only of the exterior of a character, i doubt there will be none.
    Look, people sometimes fear what they don’t understand and a lizard who speaks might be frightening for a human at first glance or an elves way to express himself could be irritating for an orc, who knows?!
    We are speaking about a medieval fantasy world! People are frightened all the time, and they should be. Try to befriend a Vampire... dead. Try to befriend a succubus... sexy dead. Try to befriend a giant... flying off to space dead.
    See, there is a valid reason to judge upon looks (please don’t do this IRL). It might save your live.
    Now, there are definitely people who are your race and just want to kill you for your gear and orcs with the kindest of attitudes. But that doesn’t matter in the first couple of seconds. Your character just sees: "Ah, nice another human." or "OH F**K F**K F**K WHAT IS THAT?! I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS IN MY LIVE, WHA DO I DOOO?!" The trick is to learn, all races can be d**ks and all races can be nice in their own, beautiful ways.
    This could be a character ark for you to consider.
    It is fun, to see your character (and ultimately yourself) grow with time. Not in level, but in heart.

    Or do the exact opposite and let your character get bitter with live and/or hold a grudge against a specific or even all races... could be fun too :neutral:


    Furthermore @dygz and @karthos :
    I, sincerely, ask you to turn it down a notch.
    This is about fictional tensions between fictional races in a fictional world. :smile:
    And (though i have not looked at the links) i can say one thing to your discussion.
    Authors bring all sorts of things out of real live into their stories.
    Its only natural, because you can’t really invent something new.
    Try imagining a new colour for example. You can’t.
    You just mix and mash existing things together until you get something "new".
    And if an author chooses to use the concept of racism (whether you like it or not that it exists in real live)
    to reinforce the tension between different parties, he has every right to do so. I would even argue, that it makes the world a bit more realistic and therefore more likely to get involved.

    I´ll take a wild guess and say, you are talking about that some cave-dwellers, who are obsessed with jewellery and have long beards. Are you implying, that these fellows have a real live equivalent?
    Well guess what, Tolkien didn’t invent dwarfs. They are creatures of the Germanic mythology and pedate to the 13th century.
    In Tolkien’s works, they are brave fighters as i remember and in the films, they are ducking AWSOME!
    Who wouldn’t want to be a dwarf?

    Yours,
    DerToastinator

    PS: Btw @karthos it is called antisemitic, to be against Jews, not Anti-Islamic. As far as I know Jews (Semitism) and Muslims (Islam) are not exactly the best friends ether.

    PPS: Can we please let real live racism out of this?
  • noaani wrote: »
    However, as a player, I'd much rather be able to hate on an individual because of the individual, rather than because of their race.

    Thats my man!
    Hating people because they earned it!
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    noaani wrote: »
    If someone were to use just those articles to form an opinion of their own, and not look at the wealth of actual well researched papers on the subject out there, I would say they are doing themselves a dis-service by not looking in to the matter fully (and anyone that looked in to the matter fully would have better papers to link than the above to support an argument that there was racism), and most likely had a pre-conceived notion of (or at least a pre-existing lean towards) seeing racism where it doesn't exist.
    Just read the Tolkien books and see how they affected systemic racism in RPG design for decades.
    No one has suggested using those articles to form an opinion, as far as I know.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 3
    And if an author chooses to use the concept of racism (whether you like it or not that it exists in real live)
    to reinforce the tension between different parties, he has every right to do so. I would even argue, that it makes the world a bit more realistic and therefore more likely to get involved.
    It's fine for an author to present racism as a subjective point of view. It's not OK to present what should be the subjective stereotypes of specific characters as objectively true.
    I´ll take a wild guess and say, you are talking about that some cave-dwellers, who are obsessed with jewellery and have long beards. Are you implying, that these fellows have a real live equivalent?
    Well guess what, Tolkien didn’t invent dwarfs. They are creatures of the Germanic mythology and predate to the 13th century.
    In Tolkien’s works, they are brave fighters as i remember and in the films, they are ducking AWSOME!
    Who wouldn’t want to be a dwarf?
    Your guess is a strawman argument rooted in ignorance. Which is going to be the most likely result when you fashion an argument from a guess rather than relying on facts.

    Btw @dygz it is called antisemitic, to be against Jews, not Anti-Islamic. As far as I know Jews (Semitism) and Muslims (Islam) are not exactly the best friends ether.
    Wrong tag. I didn't use the term Anti-Islamic and I didn't refer to Jews.
    I left my criticism of Tolkien's work to one sentence, despite the major impact that has had on systemic racism in RPGs, like D&D and WoW for the last 40 years, in order to minimize discussion of real life racism.
    That's also why I posted links when asked about clarification rather than expanding on the topic with numerous paragraphs.
    People who want to try to understand more about that can start with those links. People who want to ignore it can ignore the links.
    If someone advocates for roleplaying sexism and misogyny and homophobia in a game, I will, of course, mention, however briefly, how that relates to sexism, misogyny and/or homophobia in the real world.

    If you want to focus on racism in Ashes, for whatever reason, just talk about that instead of extending the conversation about Tolkien.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 3
    noaani wrote: »
    From a lore perspective, I'd like to think that the non-Tulnar races would be somewhat amicable towards each other. They have been living together for thousands of years, and are close enough that the portals to Verra are essentially race agnostic. This says to me that the races are somewhat evenly spread out on the other side of those portals, which would suggest a certain amount of racial harmony.

    The Tulnar though, they are new. They are different. I'd expect to see a fairly high amount of racism towards them.

    However, as a player, I'd much rather be able to hate on an individual because of the individual, rather than because of their race.
    In Ashes, there will likely be some cultural conflicts. If I'm hoping to have a Vek Scientific Metro, I'm probably not going to be happy if my Vek town advances to become a Ren'Kai city. I especially won't be happy if it advances to become an Aelar or Py'Rai or Nikua city.
    My expectation is that we may need to have a Metro that matches our race in order to complete our racial progression paths - if that's true, there should be quite a bit of ongoing racial/cultural conflict baked into the game which is really about resource competition rather than genetic appearances or ethnic stereotypes.
    9 races, but we're limited to 5 Metros
  • Sry for the long post, an unrelated question is at the bottom.
    Dygz wrote: »
    It's fine for an author to present racism as a subjective point of view. It's not OK to present what should be the subjective stereotypes of specific characters as objectively true.
    Now, what made you think, I believe Tolkiens depiction of interracial relationships are “objectively true”? AoC is even going great lengths to depict certain races in a new light, like the Vek. I find that to be a very good thing. Cultures and habits can change a whole lot. I for example think humans could easily be the most aggressive race in a high fantasy setting.
    Dygz wrote: »
    Your guess is a strawman argument rooted in ignorance. Which is going to be the most likely result when you fashion an argument from a guess rather than relying on facts.
    It was rather a try to get something good out of the situation and show, that there is no shame in being associated with those fictional characters.
    Dygz wrote: »
    Wrong tag. I didn't use the term Anti-Islamic and I didn't refer to Jews.
    I left my criticism of Tolkien's work to one sentence, despite the major impact that has had on systemic racism in RPGs, like D&D and WoW for the last 40 years, in order to minimize discussion of real life racism.
    That's also why I posted links when asked about clarification rather than expanding on the topic with numerous paragraphs.
    People who want to try to understand more about that can start with those links. People who want to ignore it can ignore the links.

    Woops, you are right. Wrong tag. I will change that, thank you.
    @karthos did mention it though.
    I looked into your links now, because I was curious and in the second link, I found this.
    “This admittance makes his characterization of dwarves troubling - particularly in The Hobbit - as Tolkien relies heavily on Jewish stereotypes, which directly contribute to antisemitism.” - https://www.ranker.com/list/racism-in-lord-of-the-rings/melissa-brinks
    Look! Amongst other things, it was about dwarves?! Not so strawman-like now, is it? My argument? :wink:
    Nah, I am just kidding. You are an alright guy, @dygz, and I really don’t want to offend you. You are bringing valid points. If you would like, feel free to message me and we can discuss this in private. :blush:

    Anyways, this got a bit out of hand, how about another question?
    How about the opposite! What do you think about positive relationships?
    An elf craving for that sweat orc booty would be fun. (no ERP)
    There is a funny DnD story on YouTube about a relationship between a dwarf and a shapeshifter… let me look it up:


  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    edited July 3
    Did anyone ever notice that the goblins in WoW look exactly how the nazi regime in germany portraid jews?

    Obsessed with money, long noses, small, with a hunshback...
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  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men
    Adding some form of racial or cultural conflict to the game makes the game world feel more real. That conflict can either be player driven or part of the lore of the game, the end result is the same.
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  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 3
    @dygz

    I'm literally asking your opinion. Not saying you're wrong, not attacking you. Calm down.

    I also note you answered these other people.

    Perhaps your problem is with me personally? I simply asked a question, you half assed an answer and I called on you to actually answer my question. Apparently this is unacceptable to you, and if so, welcome to the internet.

    @toastinator

    As a Jew, I'm very aware what "antisemitism" means and is.

    And no, thats not what I was talking about. I don't even see what you could possibly have read that would make you assume that's what I meant. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the article I referenced. If so, why did you even reply? This could be my mistake as I didn't post a link.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/chi-030112epringsrace-story.html
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  • @karthos
    We got off on the wrong foot here.
    I answered to calm you two down , because I started the discussion, and then I got carried away. :sweat_smile:
    No hard feelings?

    Karthos wrote: »
    And no, that’s not what I was talking about. I don't even see what you could possibly have read that would make you assume that's what I meant. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the article I referenced. If so, why did you even reply?

    It was just in the flow of writing. You were in an argument and I thought you might have made a common fauxpas. Since all I had read about, was how dwarfs are pictured similar to stereotypes of Jews.

    Your link is not working btw. :disappointed:
  • SarevokSarevok Member
    I wouldn't mind a little racism in the game but usually it is based on the nature or history of the race. I am sure many have read R.A. Salvatore's books about Drizzt Do'Urden and how the Dark Elves are inherently evil race due to their worship of Lloth and Matriarch ran society. The type of racism Drizzt experiences through his journeys due to his race adds that hardship and how he eventually overcomes it while also trying to keep an open mind about other races that are considered "evil" and is willing to give them a chance before he has to cut them down. It always seemed like racism in the books was directly related to the race and not the color of skin between similar races.

    I deal with enough racism in IRL and other games that I really don't need the game I would like to escape to have it introduced heavily as well. There definitely needs to be that tension but not enough to the point that it is overdone.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 3
    Calm me down?

    I'm blunt and direct, I often will call out bullshit as I see it. I understand your mistake that this can be confused for someone being "upset".

    But if I ask a question and the person doesn't answer it, I'm going to push the issue until they do. Especially if that person is low key trying to twist the question to something I didn't say or ask.

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  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    I vote that we will all start a race war in the beta, one day before the reset. Tulnar vs Humans vs Elves vs Dwarvs vs Orcs
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