Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
You do touch on a good point though. In order for a multiplayer game to succeed you need to be able to attract new players while at the same time keeping the interest of the veteran players. As the video stated, a lot of games rely on PvP gameplay to keep players interested. When done well, PvP can provide players with an almost limitless amount of changing content, but this is very dependant on the game design. Some genres are much more able to take advantage of this than others (battle royal and MOBAs especially).
A game like League of Legends for example can keep players interested a lot easier than your average mmorpg. All they have to do is the occasional balance patch and release a new character every month or so. Add in some cosmetics (that are mostly just recolours with some slightly different animations) and you are set for success. Most mmorpgs that focus on PvE content don't have this option. Modern WoW is actually one of the few mmorpgs that has managed to develop evolving content through their M+ dungeons, which are constantly changing due to the affixes and as far as I know don't have an upper limit on how difficult they can get. As long as you complete the dungeon in time you get access to the next level of difficulty.
This is actually a fantastic system for both new and veteran players. New players start off at the beginning and slowly work their way up, whereas veteran players can progress a lot faster and push for the higher levels, with even the chance of competing at international events.
I don't necessarily agree with you that the game needs to be completely revamped regularly in order to keep players interested. Instead, I believe the key to player retention is player agency. Players need to feel that their actions have control over their actions and that their actions have some meaning, or they quickly lose interest. Obviously this isn't always possible in an mmorpg (mobs need to respawn at some point right?) but there are ways of including more player agency in their gameplay.
Going back to the M+ Dungeons, players there have agency because they directly control which level of difficulty they do, and their actions have a direct impact on their future gameplay. Compare that to say, world quests, where the actions taken have absolutely no effect on either the world or the player's character, and you can partly see why that content is not worth doing.
In the case of Ashes, due to the node system and the world constantly changing, I think it has the potential to keep players more engaged for a longer period of time than other mmorpgs that have mostly static worlds. This will give the developers more breathing room to make decent content without the pressure of players getting through the current content super fast and then not having anything to do.
Oh feel free to call games companies out on their bullshit, because quite frankly they need to hear it. And speaking of bullshit pay-to-skip mechanics, here's the latest idiocy from the leaders in that department - Ubisoft.......
It's hard to take any company seriously when they pull stunts like this that are so blatantly greedy and shortsighted.
hahahahaha
Formerly T-Elf
LOL-Button
Virtue is the only good.
apparently these img bucket things are easy to use. idk. too old.
Virtue is the only good.
I know that but I have so many images of undead to post and its a chore. mind you I could get dave to do it
Just use imgur. XD
Black Desert Online is the most recent MMO I played and when I first started the game it was amazing. I had the early access package so I had the $150 pkg which I think came with a bunch of extras and that unique costume for a single character. Once you got in to the game and realized that to increase your grind and loot speeds required pets then it just spiraled from there. From buying certain pets, then buying more of that kind of pet to attempt to rank it up, to needing a costume equipped to give you those extra subtle bonuses to your grind rate (+10% Combat EXP), the slight bonuses to your mount speed from a horse costume, and the weapon skins to help reduce durability lost. It all just began to add up. There was no subscription except later they added the Adventurer's Pack which gave you other bonuses as well then moved these items to the Market Place along with other items. BOOM, you just enabled Pay to Win. Sure they had a limit on how many you could sell but that game was driven by how much silver you could grind to purchase either the enhanced item(s) you needed or you bought the base items and hoped RNG wouldn't blow up or downgrade your equipment. The game was a full on casino. RNG was everywhere and it spiraled out of control which pushed a lot of players away. It demanded a lot of time and/or money investment. Even to the point where you had to keep your machines on 24/7 and constantly check on your toon if he had finished processing or fishing and needed to be reset. Some Players bought third party services to grind for them while they did IRL to stay competitive which brings me to my next issue. After spending just over two grand, which is probably small compared to most dedicated players over the course of two years, some mechanical changes and them increasing the silver you gained from marketplace items I had enough.
How do you balance the game so that players with more time to play don't completely blow away players that have careers, families, etc? You, as a player, regardless of age and what goes on IRL wants to be able to compete as fair as possible and getting stomped by players that can invest 6, 10, 16, or 24 hours in a day to the game is frustrating and sometimes leads to players quitting to play more casual games. I am a super competitive person and gaming is my only outlet right now. So when I can hop on my favorite MMO, jump into some fights with my guild and I just get rolled by these players that have had the time to invest in their gear, leve and more time to hone their skills it just kills me. Then I have to make that choice whether to sacrifice IRL time for game time or just accept my fate. It's tough so being able to afford a little catch up so I can stay competitive with the players that have more time helps a lot. This leads to my next dilemma. What if these players that have copious amounts of time to play AND they pay for the extra assistance to stay ahead. It's just a massive cluster****. I think I saw a video on Youtube once that did a really good job cross examining the types of gamers out there based on time, age and money.
Regardless, I think the Rested EXP should make an appearance again. The time you are logged off should grant a certain amount of rested (or double EXP) as a small catch up mechanic for players that don't have the time to invest into the game to level. Remove any packages or items in the game that you can either swipe to acquire or spend time in the game crafting to increase your EXP gained. These bonuses are not needed. Have a game that doesn't make the player feel like if he stops playing he's going to fall so far behind it won't be worth trying to catch up or have items in the game that players feel they need to purpose to stay competitive. No character boosts, no EXP boosts, no costumes or pets that grant EXP boosts or bonuses that give players advantages. Just let it all come down to the player, his time invested in the game and let him log off of the game feeling like it's not a big deal he can have a life because when he comes back tomorrow he'll have rested EXP and can get back to leveling and catch up to those that have more time to play.
If you cant invest the time, your progress is slower. Just like everything else. Adding buy ins or rested exp just to benefit those that play less seems odd.
You, like me, are a casual player with a real life. If your real life is more important than the game, which it totally should be, then you're going to lag behind those that choose not to do things outside of video games 8 hours a day.
Imo this is fair. They chose to invest more time, they should be rewarded. Their efforts should not be lessened by giving those that play less catch up benefits.
I don't understand the, I cant play as much give me stuff, mindset. Ashes is a monthly sub, so if you can't play for a month or more you don't have to pay.
Again, forget about it as a game, and more as a hobby. The more time and effort you spend doing that hobby, the better you will be at it. Literally every hobby I can think of works like that, so why should gaming be any different?
I get that. When i say rested it doesn't have to be this crazy amount given so it makes what Player A just spent 16 hours doing pointless because Player B has this rested experience and can now spend half or less time accomplishing what Player A did. It's just so that your playerbase with less time doesn't get left in the dust and feels there's no point to even try to play catch up thus losing server population and customers. What I will never like are boosted level purchases. 1 to max level should be half the game. To be enjoyed and a learning experience so that once you reach max level you have a good idea on what's going on but will have still so much to learn and enjoy. That's why I like the idea of rested EXP which effects all players. People have to sleep and eat at some point.
They call those people naturals but I understand your point. I would hope the rested EXP would be like WoW's where it capped at a level's worth and this system would still benefits users with more time to play. Schedules can be hectic and change rapidly so it's more of a catch up mechanic for anyone. You can choose to spend the time and push on, grind that EXP, run those dungeons, get those succulent lewts and expand your knowledge of the game where you'll still have the edge but the other players that can't won't be left in the dust when it comes to leveling. They'll still be less skilled, less geared and a lower level but it's not going to be a night and day difference only when it comes to level. Where Wanderingmist was level 44 yesterday and is now level 46 today but Sarevok is level 44 and has some rested experience so he'll be able to complete maybe not even half of what Wanderingmist did in last night. Quality over quantity will dictate that success. I'm sure there's a lot of math that would go into the algorithm to build this mechanic that i can't even fathom. There has to be a way to give a helping hand to the players with less time to play to keep their business without crushing their hopes of being competitive or even useful because they can't invest the time.
The are track runners in high school. Some runners have time to practice after school every day and on weekends; you however, have a part time job so you can't put in as many hours of training as some other runners; so when you go to a track meet do you demand to start further down the track because you didn't have time to practice like some others? No, life is like that; we don't always have equal opportunities, and it's just as unfair to those who put in the time and effort for you to demand special treatment.
Formerly T-Elf
An RPG is, as said before, about progression. I don't think there should be a mechanic that rewards people w/ progression because they don't play. Although, in the D&D campaigns I am in/run we don't level players that can't show up. Some groups do, and that is a perfectly acceptable way to play.
In the end, on topic, I think rewarding players for not playing is not so much a negative thing for the genre. However, in games where hardcore players feel cheated (even if it's just a tiny bit) to accommodate a casual player, that would seem to hurt that particular game. Especially since hardcore gamers would be more likely to invest more money and play longer bringing in potential friends to play with. Of course, as I stated at the beginning of this thread, this is just my opinion.
Perhaps the amount of players that can participate in events (to make an mmorpg feel like an mmorpg) would be at the starting line playing catch-up.
Perhaps data shows those players are active enough to contribute to shorter que times but when the gamer logs in to do a raid or dungeon they can’t because they are busy playing catch up.
Perhaps by closing the gap by means of rested xp more players can participate and make the game feel more balanced, interactive and fun.
I have no data to support my position but I felt the need to offer a different perspective.
There will always (hopefully) be new players to a game. So, theoretically, there would always be players that would need to 'catch up' (although to what, I am not sure).
Not all players will always be at the same level, otherwise the game has gone stagnate and is likely in the process of failing (no new blood). Which means there will likely (hopefully almost always) be players at a variety of levels that should be accommodating to a variety of quest levels.
Encouraging community would be encouraging you to play with peeps that aren't just your friends. To me this is similar to all the request for a variety of 'free buffs.' Everyone wants to be better, but nobody wants it by merit alone. Again, on topic, that attitude from the gaming community that developers are trying to please is likely harmful to the genre. I was unaware there were actual players in MMO(RPG)S that believe they should get to level quicker because they play less, I still don't get this mindset even given all of the potentially valid reasons above.
-You gain without doing anything, so progress becomes less meaningful and rewarding
-You would need increased chances to get better gear to stay 'caught up' while playing less
-You would need increased gold collection percentages to stay 'caught up' while playing less
-You would need increased resource mining payouts to stay 'caught up' while playing less
-Your friends that play more often and 'work' at their characters would see you less often but notice you level quicker than they do (because rested xp = more xp with less play time)
-Your friends would, potentially, have more personal experience so their skill level (as players) should be higher (at least until some skill level where everyone balances out). Which means although your character would be 'caught up' you would still be behind.
-Those that invest time see their contributions diminished by all the free growth given to new players and players that choose not to play as often (it's a choice, if you live in a free country it's a choice, sometimes it may be a crappy one that you have little control over, but it's a choice). I include new players because of the posted desire to "catch up" to some imaginary mark would apply to new players as well.
Staying 'caught up' to players that invest more time isn't just about the level your character is.
The result of this is that the population of the game fluctuates massively. Every time there is new content added, the population spikes up for 2-3 weeks, and then crashes down again. This up and down of players contributes to the sense that WoW isn't a cohesive perpetual game world, which it should be given that it is an mmorpg.
Now I know some people reading this will say something along the lines of "well Ashes won't have nearly as many catch-up mechanics as WoW does." Yes, you're right, but it's a slippery slope that can very easily snowball out of control.
Though I could wrong. Perhaps the devs just wanted to add something new that no one wanted, I suppose it wouldn’t be the first time.
Perhaps the devs felt there was a need. They may have data to support the decision for rested xp that consumers are unaware of. Or perhaps there was a large outcry and people spoke up and requested it and now those people to defend their request are busy doing other stuff but are happy with the change. I don’t know.
Perhaps some people may expect to see a certain level of progression even if they only play for 15 hours a month whereas someone who plays the exact amount of time is fine without a rested xp pace of progression.
I would imagine, but I don’t know, that the masses enjoy rested xp or at least benefit from it enough not to raise up and demand change.
Perhaps casual yet active subscribers, that can only play like 15-20 hours a month, want or need a certain level of progression or accomplishment. And rested xp is one mechanic that allows the player to continue its subscription because the gamer sees they are making progress and achieving their goals.
Perhaps some gamers play for a sense of accomplishment faster than that of their real life( which may be stagnant) even though they cannot invest as much time do to work, family, and work.
I can see a scenario where a casual gamer logs in 15 hours a month and two months in they don’t feel a sense of accomplishment because they are still on the same level from two months ago. That could discourage the casual player to stop subscribing for a while or completely lose interest in the game.
there has already been arguments made against rested xp so I don’t feel the need to offer a pov on that position. But I can see both sides of the argument.
I’m not inserting my personal view on this matter, I’m just providing and alternative perspective.
I haven’t gone through any mmorpg forums to come to a different pov, so I don’t know what players want or don’t want. I just wanted to join this conversation because I wanted to offer another perspective on the matter and learn more about why people think the way they do
I'm coming up on playing MMOs for 20yrs soon and looking back at how things have changed, and seeing what is popular and excites me now, vs in 2003, it's drastically different. What keeps me playing however never changed. I'm just wiser (in theory).
Plenty of times I would stop playing for 10 of hours to earn rested xp so that the feel of gaining xp while playing didn't feel so tedious. Plus it also helps hardcore time players put the game aside and be more productive and/or social IRL. As well as encouraging fanatics to eat and sleep.
I'm fine with rested xp, but...
Rested xp is not going to help people progress Nodes more quickly or prepare for sieges more quickly or successfully attack or defend caravans, so really not an issue.
1. I can emagine that for alot of people, their first mmo was wow, maybe vanilla or TBC. Back then there wasn't really any other game like it, or many of them. I know of one mmo, ultima online, but it was different. If there was others, they weren't as known. So it is a first, a first can be quite special. Kind of like how people say, there will never be a first love again. So people are looking for a feeling they can't get back
2. New mmo's might not be as finished and of course, won't have nearly as much content. I used to play swtor and it didn't have a groupfinder when it was released. People also said it lack endgame content, but i don't know as i didn't rush to endgame. Which bring me to the next point.
3. Some people just rush to endgame and might not enjoy the trip. I was actualy talking about something similar with a friend about this. He had played swtor with a mutual friend, and the mutual friend just wanted to rush things, but he said he enjoyed it more when he played alone. This brings me to the next point.
4. Mmo's can be different. I'll use swtor again, as i have quite some experience with that. That game focused/focus alot on the story, so if you don't spend time on it, and ignore that part, you are missing out about a huge part of the game. So if you try and play some mmo's the same way, you will not enjoy it.
Just some thoughts i had
What you say has some truth to it, although in the case of SWTOR, there were supposedly quite a few problems with it that has nothing to do with players rushing to max level and finding nothing to do. I never played the game myself but I remember hearing at the time that it had a pretty rough launching week due to the servers not being able to cope with the amount of players trying to log in.