So What Will Be The Point Of Open World PvP?

Creighton

In a recent Live Stream it was mentioned that there will not be any sort of looting killed enemy players. I haven't been following this game too closely for the past year, but what I remember is that attacking other players gives you corruption, and the more corruption you have the more loot you may drop on death.

What I'm struggling to understand is what will be the incentive to attack other players and risk losing your gear? It seems like the risk/ reward is way off.

Can anyone clear this up for me?
Thank you!

Azryil

Specifically, you won't drop everything you're carrying when you die. You will however drop some items like gathered materials(ore, wood, herbs, etc) and depending on how high your corruption is you can start to drop your armor/weapons.

T Elf

You will get some of the gathered resources your victim may have on them. They don't want you to randomly/wantonly killing other players; they want you to have a reason to do so.

Creighton

But basically if the other player isn't gathering anything, then attacking that player is just a net negative?

I feel like there should be something you get for taking a risk as high as losing your gear. Maybe something like 'corruption coins' that allow you to buy PvP and corruption focused gear.

If the incentive is literally only that you'll get 2 iron ore from the guy you killed I don't see this mechanic being used much. I don't think full loot PvP would be healthy for the game, but there needs to be some sort of incentive for the average PvP minded player.

Wandering Mist

creighton wrote: »

But basically if the other player isn't gathering anything, then attacking that player is just a net negative?

I feel like there should be something you get for taking a risk as high as losing your gear. Maybe something like 'corruption coins' that allow you to buy PvP and corruption focused gear.

If the incentive is literally only that you'll get 2 iron ore from the guy you killed I don't see this mechanic being used much. I don't think full loot PvP would be healthy for the game, but there needs to be some sort of incentive for the average PvP minded player.

We don't know for sure what will happen when a player kills another in terms of items. The question you are referring to was specifically related to Runescape's Wilderness where when you die, all but your 3 "highest value" items drop to the ground for someone to pick up. Steven said it wouldn't be that extreme.

Shoklen

I think they did that with reason.. Apoc is the BR, and in the MMO, you "can" randomally kill someone else but there is little reason.. The battles will be for caravans, nodes, castles, ect.. There will, of course, be people that just want to pvp-kill just for the sake of it, hence the corruption mechanic..

I do not think they want the mmo to be a complete battle royale were people are even afraid to step away from their computers, in town, at the bank, for a moment.

it will be interesting how it turns out and plays..

Creighton

wanderingmist wrote: »

creighton wrote: »

But basically if the other player isn't gathering anything, then attacking that player is just a net negative?

I feel like there should be something you get for taking a risk as high as losing your gear. Maybe something like 'corruption coins' that allow you to buy PvP and corruption focused gear.

If the incentive is literally only that you'll get 2 iron ore from the guy you killed I don't see this mechanic being used much. I don't think full loot PvP would be healthy for the game, but there needs to be some sort of incentive for the average PvP minded player.

We don't know for sure what will happen when a player kills another in terms of items. The question you are referring to was specifically related to Runescape's Wilderness where when you die, all but your 3 "highest value" items drop to the ground for someone to pick up. Steven said it wouldn't be that extreme.

Ah, gotcha. That makes sense. That's probably for the best honestly.

cyanideinsanity

creighton wrote: »

What I'm struggling to understand is what will be the incentive to attack other players and risk losing your gear? It seems like the risk/ reward is way off.
Thank you!

The idea is to make the choice to attack someone something of substance. To urge any spontaneous pvp to be meaningful and not "just because".

For example way back in runescapes history there was constant competition for certain materials, where now its more that people will just hope worlds until they find one empty enough( referring to current 'old school RS' not RS3). You'd have people mining the same rock hoping to be the one to get the ore as most rocks deplete after a single ore and regenerate after a time. In ashes if you want that ore you could kill, or even just fight in some cases, other players to ensure that material is yours.

A bit of clarification on corruption, you only gain corruption for killing someone who remains flagged as a noncombatant by not fighting back. Also being flagged as a combatant lessens the death penalty giving some incentive for someone to retaliate if only for the sole purpose to lose less upon an inevitable death. While that will mean less material loot for the pker it also means no corruption.

Dygz

Also, it's not really so much about whether your opponent has been "gathering". Resources include drops from defeated mobs... might also have picked up resources dropped from winning previous PvP battles... and those resource drops are then used to craft and upgrade gear.

Incentives to initiate PvP combat include preventing characters from a rival Node from depleting local resources or from completing resource objectives needed to progress the rival Node to the next stage.
Denying characters from a rival Node/Castle of acquired resources also prevents them from adequately prepping against sieges.

Aundrew

I picture someone really skilled at mining working a rare mythril vein. Now this gatherer, is both skilled enough and good enough as a miner to get lots of quality ore, while someone else may be focused on other things. Now a group of players come across this miner and 1) they discuss payment to not kill the miner 2) duscuss payment to protect the miner on his travels back to town or 3) want to do some sort of trade. If the miner gives them some of the mythril no conflict happens, no one gets corruption, and the miner doesn't lose as much of his mythril. If the miner gets attacked, he may die and lose more than he'd like if not all the mythril, and the attackers get corruption and maybe get less mythril than they could of just discussing things. This is risk and reward mechanics, what most MMO's lack, it's that thrill and tingle running along your spine as you narrowly escape or come out of a bad situation far better than expected. Corruption isn't really something anyone should want to get, but players can choose to outright slaughter other players, if they want. It provides choice, but with consequences, let the player decide what risks they are willing to take.

Dygz

Ha. Seems like (biased) wishful thinking to me.
Dunno why we wouldn't expect that to be a group of miners just as there is a group of adventurers.
And I dunno why wouldn't expect the gear the miners have to be as good or better as the gear the adventurers have.
Also, I dunno why we wouldn't be expecting the miner(s) to be proficient at combat.

If the miners get attacked, it's very likely they will be able defend themselves just fine.
They aren't going to lose all of their resources - just a portion - even if they choose to not flag as combatant and have the attackers gain corruption. They lose the same amount of resources they would if killed by a mob. So, not really a huge amount of risk. And probably not adding any more spine-tingling than being attacked by a mob.
In fact, they will only lose half as much if they choose to fight back.

Corruption helps prevent slaughter because characters with Corruption stand to lose a considerable amount more than those without Corruption.

unknownsystemerror

Also remember there is no fast travel. Local reputation will be a thing. If you are constantly PKing your neighbors you are going to be on many KOS lists. Chest thump all you like about "bring it on," but if you keep shitting in your backyard, the stink will follow. Travelling outside your node to others will have inherent risks, thus upping the "risk v reward" of randomly trying to gank people just getting their gathering done. If the system works as it has been explained so far no one on either end of the spectrum is going to be happy, but it won't be grossly weighted towards either playstyle of "carebear" or "ganker."

Hexcat

The corruption system is basically a deterrent to PK in a massive way, since there are no factions everyone has this option and countermeasures should be implemented, and there are always that kind of players in every MMORPG, me for example I don't like to go through the world killing everyone on my sight BUT in the guild I'm gonna make there's going to be a KOS (kill on sight) list, just to mention one reason for players to do PK.

Nagash

lumbermark wrote: »

The corruption system is basically a deterrent to PK in a massive way, since there are no factions everyone has this option and countermeasures should be implemented, and there are always that kind of players in every MMORPG, me for example I don't like to go through the world killing everyone on my sight BUT in the guild I'm gonna make there's going to be a KOS (kill on sight) list, just to mention one reason for players to do PK.

do you have anyone already on that list?

Hexcat

nagash wrote: »

lumbermark wrote: »

The corruption system is basically a deterrent to PK in a massive way, since there are no factions everyone has this option and countermeasures should be implemented, and there are always that kind of players in every MMORPG, me for example I don't like to go through the world killing everyone on my sight BUT in the guild I'm gonna make there's going to be a KOS (kill on sight) list, just to mention one reason for players to do PK.

do you have anyone already on that list?

Yup, 3 people actually

georgeblack

Welp here there a few things to consider.
AoC will not award so much xp and gear on quests like "go one shoot 10 mobs and return"

In AoC if you want to farm materials for gear or lv up you will have to find a zone in the open world challenging enough to award you with good XP for killing mobs or give you msterials that you need.

Now if this zone that is meant for lv30-33 players, has mobs that respawn at a rate that 200 people can kill them without waiting for respawn, and another group of people show up, there wont be enough.

So a group will start hassling some players that are already there by hiting them a bit. When a player hits another player it has it's name changed to purple colour from white.
If the attacked players hit back both of them have purple names and can kill each other for the XP spot in the zone. The winner gets to stay on the spot until further provocations.

If a playet slays another their name go to red from purple. Then the whole zone would target them for loot.



This is part of open world PvP.

Players that are afraid of confrontation usually do not go to highly populated zones that award the best xp upon killing mobs.

Guilds will also prevent enemy guilds from leveling up by scouting zones and killing enemies.

Nagash

lumbermark wrote: »

nagash wrote: »

lumbermark wrote: »

The corruption system is basically a deterrent to PK in a massive way, since there are no factions everyone has this option and countermeasures should be implemented, and there are always that kind of players in every MMORPG, me for example I don't like to go through the world killing everyone on my sight BUT in the guild I'm gonna make there's going to be a KOS (kill on sight) list, just to mention one reason for players to do PK.

do you have anyone already on that list?

Yup, 3 people actually

Oh fascinating

Hexcat

@nagash have a plan on making your own Guild?

Nagash

lumbermark wrote: »

@nagash have a plan on making your own Guild?

im already in a guild

Damokles

"What will be the point of open world pvp?"

*ehemmm* BLOOD FOR THE BLOODGOD! LAMBS TO THE COSMIC SLAUGHTER! I AM THE CONDUCTOR OF THE POOP TRAIN!

Nagash

damokles wrote: »

"What will be the point of open world pvp?"

*ehemmm* BLOOD FOR THE BLOODGOD! LAMBS TO THE COSMIC SLAUGHTER! I AM THE CONDUCTOR OF THE POOP TRAIN!

......

Damokles

nagash wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

"What will be the point of open world pvp?"

*ehemmm* BLOOD FOR THE BLOODGOD! LAMBS TO THE COSMIC SLAUGHTER! I AM THE CONDUCTOR OF THE POOP TRAIN!

......

What? It is a legit response in the spirit of Krieg and a Chaos Space Marine!

Nagash

damokles wrote: »

nagash wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

"What will be the point of open world pvp?"

*ehemmm* BLOOD FOR THE BLOODGOD! LAMBS TO THE COSMIC SLAUGHTER! I AM THE CONDUCTOR OF THE POOP TRAIN!

......

What? It is a legit response in the spirit of Krieg and a Chaos Space Marine!

when the ashes forums turns into a Warhammer forum ^^

Wandering Mist

nagash wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

nagash wrote: »

damokles wrote: »

"What will be the point of open world pvp?"

*ehemmm* BLOOD FOR THE BLOODGOD! LAMBS TO THE COSMIC SLAUGHTER! I AM THE CONDUCTOR OF THE POOP TRAIN!

......

What? It is a legit response in the spirit of Krieg and a Chaos Space Marine!

when the ashes forums turns into a Warhammer forum ^^

Well, if you insist *evil grin*



Bring it on!

"Da ooman base iz got walls an’ fings, see. So, if I’z goes up to da wall, all sneaky-like, and blows it up wiv me bombs, den dere’ll be an ‘ole in da wall wot da ladz can go fru, see. So, when you’z lot ‘ears sumfing go boom, you charge,’ cos dere’ll be an ‘ole in da wall. Unnastand?"

— An Ork Kommando explaining "da sneaky plan" to a group of other Orks."

Nagash

Archived User1

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Damokles

Heteroclite wrote: »

To add a risk/reward aspect without putting the most valuable assets in the game at risk, gear, they should just have you lose a small percentage of the gold you are currently carrying and/or gathered/processed resources. For example 2% of gold, and the fish you were carrying from that risky fishing spot in that underground cave. Then the pker gets 1% of the gold you lost and the ability to grab your bag that held those wonderful fish. The reward would make pking enticing, while not hurting the victim too materialistically. Would also add a risk vs reward aspect to gathering a full inventory of iron or fish etc. and would also create rise to actual bounty hunters and anti-pker guilds/pk-er guilds. If we want high fantasy, bandits and assassins should be a real threat to you in the gameplay, and I do not mean boring mob ones.

They already confirmed this to happen

unknownsystemerror

@Heteroclite % of gathered resources dropped is already a thing. Depending on flagging state it goes up.
See Player Death. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting

Archived User1

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Micromegas

I don't like the the idea of dropping something from your inventory upon death in open world PVP. Shouldn't it be more of fighting for resources rather than stealing materials from players?

I get the idea why you think that might be a good motivation for starting fights in open world but that also is a good demotivator, hence more people will try to avoid going to those spots.

I mean what about organized friendly PVP fights in open world? 3v3, 2v1 , 10vs 10 , raid vs raid, and so on. Those are hard to pull off if you don't flag. And if you look at the whole picture 1v1 fights that happen in open world for the sake of resources happen rarely and make up only small part of the games PVP, therefore if you try to penalize players for dying in order to make that small part interesting there is a chance that it will ruin rest pvp activity.

So you gotta be delicate while handling this. Imo, losing items while fighting for resources will only be interesting when it is GvG or when you get a party quests and you meet other party with the same quest but only one side can claim it. So the players will have to decide whether it worth the risk?

Imo, Pvp for the sake of pvp is the best motivation since pvp spots will be created by itself, due to community wanting to pvp, near city entrances, dungeon entrance or at some dueling places somewhere in the world. People would gather around them when they have nothing to do or just wanna chill and do some friendly PVP/dueling.

Ofc there should also be penalization for PK or stuff like those but dunno in what form.

unknownsystemerror

Sorry, the above post just seems like you haven't read or researched anything about how PVX is going to work in Ashes as stated. There is a plethora of information giving reasons behind meaningful pvp interactions, ganking, organized pvp and the rest.There is all your bog standard mmo options there for those looking for that style and they have a penalty system for PKing/Griefing called corruption. Sanctioned pvp like caravans and such don't use the flagging system. The flagging system is used for non-consensual pvp interactions like attacking a gatherer or another person randomly in the wild. These discussions have raged since inception of the game back and forth with people on both ends of the spectrum not happy with how they will be affected, but the middle ground is where they have decided to drive. I will post a couple relevant Discord quotes to get you going, but the wikis should be a good jumping off point to to see what their intention behind the base "pillars of design" of the game will be.