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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
NPC vendors
neuroguy
Member, Alpha Two
I was just wondering what people would like to see in terms of NPC vendors. What would make you want to engage with them? I think this is often under-appreciated or rather under-utilized in games, there are a lot of cool things that can be done with them I think.
Gold sink?
One major role in-game vendors often serve is gold sinks to prevent perpetual inflation. I know gear degrades and will eventually be destroyed but that seems to be a gold sink that is insufficient to prevent inflation on its own. With the many crafting professions players can make their own food, mounts and other common sources of vendor-sold gold sinks. What would a NPC vendor need to sell to act as a good gold sink? I don't like one of the solutions WoW implemented where you had to buy certain crafting-related items from vendors like threads. What would you like to see vendors sell? Should it be uniquely vendor sold (can it be created by players)? Do we even need NPC vendors to serve as gold sinks or can we do without them serving that purpose? I personally think it would be great if NPC vendors wouldn't need to serve as gold sinks.
Predictability
How predictable should the wares of shops be? If we visit a tailor in one metropolis, will it be a "seen one, seen them all" sort of deal? Will the dominant race influence more than the looks of the wares? Will the type of metropolis determine what shops will be present in the first place? Personally I want the least amount of predictability feasible... In my fantasy, if I visit a metropolis I want to talk to every NPC and perhaps reveal an NPC as a vendor only if I chose some sequence of dialogue options. Or to have new items for sale over time (depending on the season or world events) and as a function of my relationship with them. I personally love the idea of my quest-giver NPCs becoming vendors and selling more/different stuff the more I do for them. This is easily expanded to reputations with races, factions etc. Kind of related to the last section, I think having vendors in metros having something desirable/different from cities for example would be yet another incentive to travel to metros or to have your node be one itself.
Cool interactions/secrets
Have cool and secret ways to interact with or find vendors similar to what I wrote earlier about finding a vendor in an unassuming NPC via dialogue. In early WoW there were some really cool ways they did this like having to mind control a hostile mob which would sell you something, or having to reveal an invisible NPC vendor. I'd love to hear other cool stuff people have seen in other games or cool ideas they have.
Gold sink?
One major role in-game vendors often serve is gold sinks to prevent perpetual inflation. I know gear degrades and will eventually be destroyed but that seems to be a gold sink that is insufficient to prevent inflation on its own. With the many crafting professions players can make their own food, mounts and other common sources of vendor-sold gold sinks. What would a NPC vendor need to sell to act as a good gold sink? I don't like one of the solutions WoW implemented where you had to buy certain crafting-related items from vendors like threads. What would you like to see vendors sell? Should it be uniquely vendor sold (can it be created by players)? Do we even need NPC vendors to serve as gold sinks or can we do without them serving that purpose? I personally think it would be great if NPC vendors wouldn't need to serve as gold sinks.
Predictability
How predictable should the wares of shops be? If we visit a tailor in one metropolis, will it be a "seen one, seen them all" sort of deal? Will the dominant race influence more than the looks of the wares? Will the type of metropolis determine what shops will be present in the first place? Personally I want the least amount of predictability feasible... In my fantasy, if I visit a metropolis I want to talk to every NPC and perhaps reveal an NPC as a vendor only if I chose some sequence of dialogue options. Or to have new items for sale over time (depending on the season or world events) and as a function of my relationship with them. I personally love the idea of my quest-giver NPCs becoming vendors and selling more/different stuff the more I do for them. This is easily expanded to reputations with races, factions etc. Kind of related to the last section, I think having vendors in metros having something desirable/different from cities for example would be yet another incentive to travel to metros or to have your node be one itself.
Cool interactions/secrets
Have cool and secret ways to interact with or find vendors similar to what I wrote earlier about finding a vendor in an unassuming NPC via dialogue. In early WoW there were some really cool ways they did this like having to mind control a hostile mob which would sell you something, or having to reveal an invisible NPC vendor. I'd love to hear other cool stuff people have seen in other games or cool ideas they have.
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Comments
I like this because it means every general store might have different things, and you can pick up some really good deals from them if you are lucky.
(armour and weapons different sellers for different types: heavy, medium, light / onehanded melee, two handed melee, ranged bows, staves and wands, books and foci):
Armour vendor (standard armour for different levels that you can use if you dont have much money, your last armour broke and you dont have anything else to replace it with)
Weapon vendor(same as above)
Miscelaneous(fishing poles, rations etc)
Trading goods (like flour, or milk, or string, or paint/colouring etc)
That suggests you would be ok buying gear from NPC vendors which means they'd need to sell wears comparable to craftable gear. I guess inferior since you say "if you don't have much money" but it kind of requires knowledge of player market prices to tune the prices.
@wanderingmist
So then what would the difference between a metro shop and a city shop be? Number of slots? Or just the intrinsic population difference where more people in metros will provide higher variety of things for players to buy? Also for this to be valid, items need to sell for a reasonable price at vendors. Would you suggest that you can only sell certain wares to the appropriate vendor? Do they have limited money? Why would a player sell to a vendor NPC instead of setting up shop to sell to other players?
It should be noted that at the time there was no auction house in runescape, so if you wanted to sell anything you either had to do a direct player trade or sell to the store.
Yes as @Wandering Mist sayd; the runescape system was rly nice. For alot of items the sell price to general store was just under market value. Some would check them out looking for bargains.
I like the idea too of NPC's selling goods only after you complete a quest for it (like in GW2 with Karma vendors after heart quests). Or if they are the same race, same ZoI, same organisation, same corruption stage or only offer goods after a certain siege or event. That could make some NPC's very potent and sought after. Ofcource it would be metagamed but the more variation they bring in this the more it will tie into other systems and professions.
In the context of a game like Ashes, this could be genius.
I would rather say that crafted gear would take its minimum prices FROM the npc shops. Crafted gear would never fall below "NPC" gear,.
It is sad how some games handled their crafting, WoW for example has "good" crafted gear, but they are either RNG locked, or bring a net win of a few gold....
Gems for example are sold for LESS then the material cost to acquire the materials.
(you spend 100gold for 10 ore, you refine those for around 2 gems, cut those gems, and these cut gems would sell for around 10gold for example....)
NPC Gear:
normal rarity, good armour, no special stats = very cheap
Crafted gear/looted gear:
uncommon and higher rarity, good armour, extra stats = more expensive then NPC gear
Players making and crafting everything made the game very interesting in the early months. Add in gear decay, and crafter's stayed busy nearly the entire time keeping players geared.
For a game in 2002/2003, galaxies did a lot right, though also did a lot wrong and crashed.. heh..
That said, sounds like our characters themselves will be the vendors in Ashes.. and with limited inventory space we can only sell so much.. and will be caravans to get even more from one city to another if you want to sell "over there".. since there is no "global market".
Never liked that npc have unlimited items.
One thing to keep in mind is that player run stalls can only be set up in an economic metropolis, and auction houses are exclusive to economic nodes of stage 3 or higher. So until those start popping up the only way to sell things reasonably is to NPC vendors.
@noaani it could definitely work for non-economic nodes that don't have access to player stalls or an auction house.
I just like the exploration and discovery of talking to NPCs without knowing who's a merchant and who isn't or what they will have for sale. When games encourage this type of interaction, e.g. not having quest markers so you interact with NPCs, pay attention and choose dialogue choices (therefore become invested) and perhaps get a quest, an item, or something without having known it would happen beforehand. Divinity Original Sin 2 did this well.
Yeah that's usually a consequence of having NPCs sell/buy items for a particular price. If an NPC will buy each of your copper ores for 10 silver (with no other restriction), you will only sell it for at least 11 silver to players. Similarly, if a shop keeper sells the exact item you're selling for 5 gold (assuming infinite stock), you have to sell it for lower. I do then agree that NPCs should not sell the same gear that players can craft to not "cap" the price players can sell at.
Only issue I take with this is that it doesn't allow for any distinction between vendors in a metro vs vendors in a village. But vendors don't need to sell just gear either. What about raw materials or consumables? How would the stock be managed?
That's cool, so the resources sold in the node kind of impact what the vendors sell? I think it would be a bit annoying to code but definitely doable. I like it, it even makes you excited to visit the NPC vendors if you get to a far-off node in a different biome because you don't know what they have available in the region and therefore what they might have for sale.
Players would need the specific resources (copper/bronze, silver, gold etc), and at that point people would just barter with goldbars xD
Lol like coins? Probably not, you would need sufficient "coin" to start up the economy as a fully barter economy is tough to pull off I think. I think it would simply be too hard but I could be wrong.
Tangent: I will say that my fave economy in any game, which I will preface by saying I do not think is possible to pull off in an MMORPG, is the one in Path of Exile. In that game, the "currency" is crafting items. Even in that game people default to measuring/evaluating value in terms of 1 or 2 crafting items like silver and gold coins butttt I always thought it was really cool that you traded crafting potential. It eliminates needing currency sinks and causes interesting dynamics in terms of pricing around economic resets but I think it only works for the type of game it is: heavy RNG and the same crafting system for every player. So again, I don't think it will work in an MMO and I don't think it's worth trying even lol.
You wouldn't be able to barter everything with gold bars though right? Housing rent wouldn't accept gold bars as a form of payment, would it?
I think it's worth experimenting tbf. I mean... you won't know till you've given it a go right? To avoid people bartering with anything but the coins, there needs to be demand for it and I think that can be achieved by allowing the systems such as the Housing system to only deal with coins. Hope I'm not being confusing here
Would that be any better than the more established economy systems most mmorpgs use right now?
But sure, this is a fun thought experiment. Let's say that in the game you don't get any gold from quests or mob drops. If you kill a wolf you get resources like meat and fur to use in crafting, but you can only sell these resources to NPCs who have enough gold to buy them. The only way NPCs can get gold is if a player with gold coins buys something from them.
The only way to get gold coins is to mine the gold ore and turn it into coins. The advantage of a system like this is that it is far easier for the devs to control the in-game economy. If they see inflation happening they can reduce the amount of gold ore that spawns in the world. Then if they get an influx of players on a server they can increase the amount of gold ore to compensate.
The downside is that this system would be very very hard for new players who wouldn't have a stable income until they get to the point where they can harvest worthwhile materials to sell for gold. Much like real life, this system allows the rich to get richer, and often stops the poor from getting their foot in the door.
Maybe introduce the currency system earlier on with the ability to convert currency for example: 25 copper for 1 piece of gold. I think that way everyone at any level of the game is able to contribute to the economy one way or another.
Think I follow but then you are motivating the manufacturing of gold coins just for the sink (i.e. property). You would probably need a way to pump that gold back into the pocket of players or it just sinks into property and stagnates without property to buy. I don't really like the system though, people may not be happy with barter offers, may feel scammed or may just hoard until the coin economy is up and running.
On the other hand, what does it add? It adds some crafting options, immersion from some realism I guess, and as mentioned, makes it easier for devs to control the economy. All of those positives could be achieved through other various means as well, I don't think the coin making is uniquely good at anything or contributes sufficient positives to justify it. It's also just super hard to predict shit with AoC already given how most of us are not used to MMORPGs without fast travel, inventory limits, and the many innovative systems it's trying to create. They need to have some grounded/relatable shit too haha.
I get what you're saying. I just thought it would be an opportunity to be even more unique and to integrate a proper pure player-driven economy. You're right, the money sinks might be an issue but when I think about, wouldn't property be a good enough gold sink to prevent inflation on its own? and yes, it is quite unpredictable but that's why it's still definitely worth experimenting IMO 😄
Not saying it's a bad idea, I can just see the same functional system being able to be introduced without it needing to be called currency.
They could well add in a means of minting coins in game in a limited way, and could even design the game in a way where that is the main way coin enters the server - but in order to make that work, every crafting class would need to provide an item or consumable needed in the minting of the coins so that the profit is spread around.
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I personally wouldn't want to see Intrepid encourage non-currency bartering between players. There is no need to block or discourage it - should two players find they each have an item that the other wants, there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to swap. I just don't think it should be encouraged.
Path of Exile is a good example of why I don't want to see this happen. Rather than having no currency, that game has many, but these currency items are also used in item crafting and o are not just a pure currency. Because there are so many currency item, and the value of these items is purely the value that players proscribe to them (though the game does set a baseline), players new to the game have a VERY steep learning curve to be able to barter in that game without risk of being massively ripped off.
While this system works (arguably) in a MMOARPG, it wouldn't work in an MMORPG. If such a system were encouraged on the developer level, many people would simply opt out of the trading game as much as they possibly could - and I personally don't think that's a good thing.
I personally wouldn't want to see non-currency bartering either but I don't think we have to either if we're able to introduce the currency very early on. How? With lower valued coins such as silver and copper. If you allow access to copper at the very start of the game and with enough reason to want to use, I think you can avoid non-currency bartering completely. Maybe they could also introduce a conversion system that allows players to convert their copper or silver into gold accordingly or vice versa.
If you introduce it early on in the game, you won't be able to introduce it in a way where all crafting classes participate in it's creation as setting up that kind of network is not something that happens very well in the first few months of a game. In order to prevent the population reverting to a bartering system, something like this would need to function by the end of the first day of the game being live.
I'm not saying the idea is bad - I actually kind of like it.
To me, the best way to do something like this would be to use it as a post first expansion mechanic for crafters as a whole to generate currency much like adventurers do when killing a mob and taking it's stuff.
Allocate a writ to players of the appropriate class to mint a certain value of coin.
From there, the player with the writ can opt to make which ever currency (I'd go for copper, silver, gold and platinum as the options - maybe add a fifth) he wishes to make - up to the value of the writ. Then require specific items from each crafting class - that in turn require specific things from each processor class - that in turn require specific things from each gathering class.
That way, every class makes a profit out of the creation of the currency.
There can be automated controls on the value of the writs offered to players as a means of maintaining a healthy economy.
If you want a coin minting component in an MMORPG, I would highly suggest it be very isolated in some mini-game or something away from everything else haha. Or tie it to the mayoral system where there is no crafting involved, and the mayor can manipulate the local economy and compete with other economies globally. But again, it sounds intriguing but not fun if you have to deal with it constantly... the "oh no, we've all run out of coin, now the economy is at a standstill so we gotta go make some more" loses its luster pretty quickly I bet :P.
Perhaps. But then we're getting into trying to fix a system that, as @neuroguy put it, is adding complexity for the sake of complexity.
I'm not saying that the bog standard mmorpg economy is perfect (far from it), but from my point of view, what is being suggested here has its own problems that are no better than what we currently have.
True but the main reason I proposed the idea was because it's different to the usual and I understand that some people don't like change but change can be good and it could attract a lot of people (I mean people from all genres and not just MMORPG players) because it's new and people love new. I'm not saying Intrepid has to implement this feature, I just want to experience something out of the usual in an MMORPG and I thought it would be fun to discuss and it was so thank you 😄.
Yes it is different, and yes change can be good. But when you incite change just for the sake of it I feel obligated to ask "why". It's like going to Ford and pitching them a design for a car with 5 wheels. Yes it's new, yes it's different enough to attract attention, but is it any better than a 4-wheeled car?
As for your idea regarding players making their own coins, I've given my opinion on it, with the pros and cons compared to the traditional system.
If every company is doing the same thing, chances are there is a reason for it, just like how every car manufacturer makes cars with 4 wheels.
I said change would be the main the reason and not the only reason. I've already mentioned other reasons why the idea would be cool to see so I'm not going to bring them up again.
Also, your analogy about the wheels isn't a fair one because the 4 wheel design of cars is already complete meaning it doesn't need any sort alteration in order to meet it's purpose (you could say it's perfect as it is) . Whereas, when you look at MMORPG economies, we all know it's never been perfected and maybe that's because they've never tried to adapt to these types of changes.
Just because the majority do something a certain way (which seems to be working), doesn't mean you have to follow their every step. You've got to stand out one way or another right? Ford cars don't have the same designs as Audi's do they? Main point here is we shouldn't be afraid to make leaps.
Although I agree with your points, I don't see the manufacturing of currency as a solution to any particular broken component of the economy. What you propose is changing the actual exchange medium of the economy which, yeah will change the economy in some way but it's unclear and untargeted. I think if you have a particular problem about MMORPG economies in mind, identify it explicitly then try to resolve it. If changing the medium of exchange will resolve it great, but perhaps there are other ways to resolve it that may not have as many unpredictable consequences as well.
Throwing my hat in the analogy game: it's kind of like changing the manufacturing of the car to use copper instead of steel, it might resolve some original issue you had with the car but it's also super hard to predict what else it will do so maybe it's not the "best" solution for the problem originally. Analogies are fun haha