Stage Set (maybe a stance change?) - Single power cast or lengthy ticking action
Opener (Optional) - Alters base single-target spell into AoE effect (could potentially be an additional "stance" choice?)
Performance - Choice between heal, damage, buff, debuff, crowd control ability to cast
Finale (Optional) - Activates AOE spread of ticking effect already cast
I like it . Monster hunter world has a support weapon (hunting horn) where you play different notes which accumulate into a "song" that provides a buff. Different song, different buff. That could allow the flexibility in the "performance" you mention. I think it's a cool idea to have a modular process where in each stage you need to make choices with certain effects and you can't undo it until you finish this sequence and start a new one (similar to cooldowns). The one issue I see is that since the whole process may take a while, it fails to be time sensitive so you might just be going through the motions without any chance to interact with events or having to time particular things very much.
Agreed on the time-consuming part, with a caveat:
I was thinking that the first two steps could be two separate stance selections (read as: two buttons that can be altered individually) that can remain set until changed and would be off of global cooldown (GCD). Each of them would dilute the instant power (or increase the cost) of a spell in favor of spreading it out over either time or distance. Double dilution (or cost) of power, if both are activated.
Then, you would only have to keep using the "performance" step to cast out your spells (using the optional step 4 if needed) until you need to change anything about the two separate stances. These could then be adjusted while the GCD is processing, getting you ready for the next actual cast.
All in all, the feeling would be that of a class that needs to know mechanics of a fight, be slightly predictive in what will be needed soon, and paying attention to party members calling out that they need help with something or that they are about to burn an important cooldown that could use a buff.
Truly analyzing all of the needs for the entire situation and prioritizing where to add their support for the most benefit.
My ultimate support healer would be something like a fistweaver monk from WoW combined with some more tankyness, where you would have actual melee skills that buff/heal your allies.
Good thing is that Steven already told us that this will be most likely possible ;D
(some examples for bard skills sound a ton like chanter from AION or fistweaver from WoW)
Actually, from Steven and Jeff's descriptions, it sounds like the base Cleric is going to be very much like a fistweaver. This excites me a LOT, as that was my favorite healer before they removed the fistweaving benefits.
Though....I will admit that I still had fun wikth my mistweaver after fistweaving was all but removed.
Mistweaver, Druid, and Disc Priest were my absolute favorite healers. Fairly tied for top, though I think I slightly favored Mistweaver because of their mobility and toolkit.
I hope the support characters receive experience for their support. So many MMO's only reward actual combat - or give only "participation" rewards to the support characters. I would like to see support roles have their own unique support rewards apart from the combat experience.
I don't quite understand what you mean by this. As far as I know if you're partied up with people and perform a support role in the group (healing, actively buffing/debuffing, etc) you get experience just like everyone else. I guess I'm not really clear on what you mean by support rewards apart from combat experience. Supports will still value combat exp because that's going to be how we level up just like everyone else...
From my experience the support people get the party experience, that is by being a member of the party they get the rewards that are given to all party members regardless of their contribution. However, those who are actually on the front lines, killing the badies, glean more experience because they are individually rewarded for each kill they get. Support people, especially the healers and buffers, spend most of their time keeping the front lines characters alive with heals and buffs and so do not get the kill experience those in actual combat get. I think it would be nice if those in the support role received heal or buff experience in the same way as those fighting receive kill experience.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2019
Players who wish to be a Cleric with roots and snares can just grab the augments from the corresponding archetypes that have those abilities.
In Ashes, Clerics are not all heals in any case - they are masters of death as well as life, so will have some abilities that do both (at the same time).
Well one really cool ability for healers i think is An ability that tells a player that they are standing in the fire and need to move I mean no point in healing someone standing in the fire. Could be a flame over their head and could make toon say somethign like I smell something burning.
But healers naturally know when boss enrages cause they have to heal more and are waiting for it do heals could be given another ability to signal the party to use defensive cool downs and or us offensive cool downs to burst down enraged monster.
Kind of filling the role of command and signal. I know that world markers and icons could possibly be used to do the same thing but if healers were given custom abilites that would make them feel more involved.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well one really cool ability for healers i think is An ability that tells a player that they are standing in the fire and need to move I mean no point in healing someone standing in the fire. Could be a flame over their head and could make toon say somethign like I smell something burning.
But healers naturally know when boss enrages cause they have to heal more and are waiting for it do heals could be given another ability to signal the party to use defensive cool downs and or us offensive cool downs to burst down enraged monster.
Kind of filling the role of command and signal. I know that world markers and icons could possibly be used to do the same thing but if healers were given custom abilites that would make them feel more involved.
Best healing class I've seen is the Goblin Shaman of Warhammer Online.
That class forced you to balance offense and defense. The more you attacked, the stronger your healing/defensive spells became, and vice versa. Powerful shamans were great at switching between the two as needed, but could actually participate in combat in pvp.
AoC sounds like a system that's drawing inspiration from The Secret World, which had an AWESOME horizontal progression system. You picked out 6 active and 6 passive abilities, slotted them, and that's what you worked with. How you set your character build up determined a lot of what you could do, and you weren't shoe horned into a specific role unless you focused on it.
Guess voice chat could be used if every one used it. Lots of people only use it for raiding. So would still be pretty useful in dungeouns. Some people do not use voice chat in raids just know fights really well. Really signal and command abilities could be used so voice chat not needed in most cases.
Also voice chat does make icons and world markers redundant.
Not really. A good leader will utilise both icons, world markers and voice chat to make things go as smoothly as possible. It's far easier to say to a raid "all stack up on the red marker" than "all stack up to the left of the boss" for example.
Raid markers and icons are tools that should be available to the raid leader, who may not necessarily be a healer.
Also voice chat does make icons and world markers redundant.
Not really though.
I led a raid for 4 years and trust me, people are forgetfull as fuc*! Map markers and icons saved me a ton of times, and people could always reorient themselves on them without my explicit command.
Also voice chat does make icons and world markers redundant.
Not really. A good leader will utilise both icons, world markers and voice chat to make things go as smoothly as possible. It's far easier to say to a raid "all stack up on the red marker" than "all stack up to the left of the boss" for example.
Raid markers and icons are tools that should be available to the raid leader, who may not necessarily be a healer.
yeah forgot to put the not in there sorry for confusiong edited and put it in there.
I like the EverQuest 2 ' inquisitor' and any other game I've played (Admittedly not many) there's never been anything like it. That was my fav class.. a healer/ fighter who can solo and be a backup healer at the same time. That'd be stellar.
I am putting my 2 cents into this thread before I know much about the game or the classes in it. So I don't know which if any of the classes in the game would match the playstyles I am about to mention.
This will sound a bit silly but anyone who has watched the anime "log horizon", the Enchanter and Bard skills in that are the sorts of things I'd love to see in this game.
I was going to use "Log Horizon" as examples of my likes. It was interesting to see it mentioned beforehand. I agree, with Bard songs/abilities like "Coward's Fugue" (Agro reduction), "Maestro Echo" (Buff/Trigger), and "Meditation Nocturne" (MP Regen); Isuzu was very versatile in what she could do. That is the style of bard/support I would like to see here. Being able to change focus and the type of buffs being given to match the situation would be perfect. Most of the time Bards are limited in choices and are not very flexible.
For Healers, I normally avoid the main healer types, as I don't fully trust myself to safely do that. I normally go for HoT based healers, like Serara from Log Horizon; or Damage Mitigation healers, like Minori. I have less experience in Damage Mitigation style as I either can't find one I like or I can't keep them alive long enough to learn them properly.
I have no idea how the primary/secondary classes affect the character. But if there is a combination that can create a healer like Minori, I might create that type of character first. I hope there is enough variety in the styles of healers that one can find their preferred playstyle.
As to the control method, I still prefer to have a selected target casting method. Any action based target method I have tried lead to the game selecting the wrong target. A hybrid system might work where we could lock a target but still use the action targeting for secondary heals. I know I would prefer to have a lock on the tank for quick heals. I can get away hit scan for the DPS heals as those are not critical most of the time.
Well Xcom Enemy Unknown had pretty good support class and one or more of the devs are on our team so be pretty cool to see something like that.
The supposrt class healed provided cover and defense with smoke granades
did enough dps to finish aliens provided pretty well rounded.
For For Ashes of creation there could be a mist of obscurement, buff or debuff to be applied and extra damage on toons less thant 30 percent damage and mobs to.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well Xcom Enemy Unknown had pretty good support class and one or more of the devs are on our team so be pretty cool to see something like that.
The supposrt class healed provided cover and defense with smoke granades
did enough dps to finish aliens provided pretty well rounded.
For For Ashes of creation there could be a mist of obscurement, buff or debuff to be applied and extra damage on toons less thant 30 percent damage and mobs to.
xcom was a great game ^^
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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MeowsedMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I just hope that the engine and encounter design are set-up so that healers can actually save people's life on reaction rather than just being heal batteries that have top the party off every 10 seconds.
To be specific, I guess there's two parts to that opinion. 1) Healers shouldn't be constantly healing; instead they should be DPSing and doing mechanics just like everyone else. Healing should only be necessary every ~20 seconds or so, or when other teammates are getting themselves into trouble. 2) Healers should have the power to erase/stop mistakes if they react quickly and appropriately. (And not just by rezzing.) That's the whole healer fantasy, imo: You're there to support your allies when they mess up and get into danger. So I'd like abilities like big, quick shields (on a long CD) that you can use to save someone who forgot to dodge. Alternatively, it's cool when bosses have punishing but "fixable" mechanics, like hard CC that needs to be cleansed quickly to save your allies.
I just don't want the design to be the plain old "People are constantly taking damage, so keep healing," or "People are gonna take a lot of damage twice so top people off before the second hit." I mean, those are fine mechanics as a baseline, but I'd like for other stuff to be thrown in to keep me on my toes as a healer. Stuff that actually feels like I'm pulling people out of danger, rather than just filling HP bars like a waiter going around filling water glasses.
I just hope that the engine and encounter design are set-up so that healers can actually save people's life on reaction rather than just being heal batteries that have top the party off every 10 seconds.
To be specific, I guess there's two parts to that opinion. 1) Healers shouldn't be constantly healing; instead they should be DPSing and doing mechanics just like everyone else. Healing should only be necessary every ~20 seconds or so, or when other teammates are getting themselves into trouble. 2) Healers should have the power to erase/stop mistakes if they react quickly and appropriately. (And not just by rezzing.) That's the whole healer fantasy, imo: You're there to support your allies when they mess up and get into danger. So I'd like abilities like big, quick shields (on a long CD) that you can use to save someone who forgot to dodge. Alternatively, it's cool when bosses have punishing but "fixable" mechanics, like hard CC that needs to be cleansed quickly to save your allies.
I just don't want the design to be the plain old "People are constantly taking damage, so keep healing," or "People are gonna take a lot of damage twice so top people off before the second hit." I mean, those are fine mechanics as a baseline, but I'd like for other stuff to be thrown in to keep me on my toes as a healer. Stuff that actually feels like I'm pulling people out of danger, rather than just filling HP bars like a waiter going around filling water glasses.
This. Healers really do need a bigger role in combat, and I'd love a more active system where I buff, cleanse, debuff, shield, and heal.
Healers shouldn't have to DPS in my opinion, kinda depends on the style they want to play. However they should be doing far more than just healing. Snapping off barriers on the mage who gets aggro to give the tank more time to taunt it off, buff the party (hopefully with long term non-renewed buffs, DAOC had a nice concentration system for this), debuff the enemies to make them squishier, and heal when needed. Support has so much potential, and it's usually just heal bots.
I really hope the cleric is a dedicated healer. I Really enjoy games that have dedicated healers. really hate games that give skills for all players to heal them selves. having healers brings a complexity to the game. along with having other support role classes. I hope there is raid frame healing. I have played healers in several games WOW, Aion, Final Fantasy, Star Wars, ARCHage ETC. I hope that the game does not limit us to 3 or 4 spells. I hope that there is an array of spells for Damage for leveling and various heal over time, group heals single target tank heals based on a mana regen so you cant spam heals. vanilla Wow was probably my favorite healing where you had in combat/out of combat mana regen where you had to be judicious with heals. and not a spam feast later in wow. not a big fan of dmg to heal, I think variety of healers to meet persons play style. Bard form Archage was fun support to play. like raid frames also especially when doing Raids...lol
Personally I would like to see a variety of different play styles and types within the system, so Healers that can specialise in Heal Over Time, Burst Healing, Damage Mitigation and possibly even a Heal through damage type augment (I used to love the Chloromancer in RIFT).
Big heals (holy priest style)
Small and fast heals with shields and mitigation (discipline priest style)
Healing over time (Restoration druid style)
Aoe healing (Restoration chaman style)
Sustained healing
Clutch healing
I think there are lot of base niche and archetype that Ashes could use as an inspiration and find it's own identity from there.
Healers should not be measured by how hard and precise they can aim, so their gameplay should be more cooldown knowledge based.
I am hoping to see a true and meaningful use for the healer/support classes. Most MMO's have watered down those roles and focused heavily on DPS. Why even make other classes if a DPS can do it all.
On the flip side, I would like a healing kit that is engaging.
I want support (not healing) to be a meaningful and standalone role. It would be nice change to play as a active buffer of your group or as a debuffer/distractor of your enemies, regardless are we talking about PvE or PvP context.
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MarzzoMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That I am not forced to be a dps healer. If i want to go all out healing and supporting I should be able to. Ofc, dps as a healer should be just as viable as pure healer if you want to do that.
I have read about half the posts, but got bored because you guys all keep repeating each other on what you want from the support class. One actual good example of a support class I have seen before (and played quite a bit myself in Monster Hunter World) was the hunting horn. That is a dynamic support class that is fun to play and can dish out quite a bit of DPS.
On another note though, you guys have assured me that my decision to uninstall WoW after about 20 minutes because the community is worse that LoL (which I have played on and off for years) and the healer class sounds like a snooze fest with no idea of what fun is thrown in. Yes, I would have mained a support class in WoW if I had actually played because that is what I have always been good at in several other games. In short, I am glad I uninstalled WoW because that saves me the effort of wasting my time getting to max level and finding out the support class is STILL boring.
The game you all described SEVERAL times now is TERA. There are two healer/buff classes in Tera, the Mystic and Priest. Mystic is a aura based buff/Summoner/DPS healer and one of the classes with the highest skill ceilings (Warrior class being slightly harder to master).
Then there is the Priest, otherwise known as the newb carrier. This class is a pure healing class and somewhat easy to get going with, but also has a relatively high skill ceiling, but nothing compared to the mystic. This class has so many heals both AOE and single-target, it is capable of 1%-100% healing a tank class 10 times every 5 seconds. It is my second favorite class to play in Tera (havn't played in about a year now though), right behind my Lancer (Tank class).
Healing in Tera is perfectly done with the action combat and I have not (and probably will never) seen it done better in any game on the market. People can try to say BDO is better, and in some ways it is, but the combat system is several levels better in Tera. Sadly this is one of the only selling points the game has The classes are cool, combat is fun, and a lot of the endgame dungeons are awsome.
Personally I would like to see a variety of different play styles and types within the system, so Healers that can specialise in Heal Over Time, Burst Healing, Damage Mitigation and possibly even a Heal through damage type augment (I used to love the Chloromancer in RIFT).
Agreed. I hope there are enough abilities to choose from to customize healers. Or better yet, be able to customize abilities to create interesting play styles.
Chloro was great in Rift partly because you could customize it to some degree with skill points in other souls (as well as Chloro builds that didn't sink all 61 soul points in Chloro). The other part of the Chloro's greatness was how you had to alternate from direct heals to heal-through-damage and back again constantly to get the best output - some damage abilities would increase the heal output of some healing abilities, or reduce the cast time on specific healing abilities. Made for a very fast paced and dynamic (and sometimes hectic) play style.
Comments
Agreed on the time-consuming part, with a caveat:
I was thinking that the first two steps could be two separate stance selections (read as: two buttons that can be altered individually) that can remain set until changed and would be off of global cooldown (GCD). Each of them would dilute the instant power (or increase the cost) of a spell in favor of spreading it out over either time or distance. Double dilution (or cost) of power, if both are activated.
Then, you would only have to keep using the "performance" step to cast out your spells (using the optional step 4 if needed) until you need to change anything about the two separate stances. These could then be adjusted while the GCD is processing, getting you ready for the next actual cast.
All in all, the feeling would be that of a class that needs to know mechanics of a fight, be slightly predictive in what will be needed soon, and paying attention to party members calling out that they need help with something or that they are about to burn an important cooldown that could use a buff.
Truly analyzing all of the needs for the entire situation and prioritizing where to add their support for the most benefit.
Actually, from Steven and Jeff's descriptions, it sounds like the base Cleric is going to be very much like a fistweaver. This excites me a LOT, as that was my favorite healer before they removed the fistweaving benefits.
Though....I will admit that I still had fun wikth my mistweaver after fistweaving was all but removed.
Mistweaver, Druid, and Disc Priest were my absolute favorite healers. Fairly tied for top, though I think I slightly favored Mistweaver because of their mobility and toolkit.
From my experience the support people get the party experience, that is by being a member of the party they get the rewards that are given to all party members regardless of their contribution. However, those who are actually on the front lines, killing the badies, glean more experience because they are individually rewarded for each kill they get. Support people, especially the healers and buffers, spend most of their time keeping the front lines characters alive with heals and buffs and so do not get the kill experience those in actual combat get. I think it would be nice if those in the support role received heal or buff experience in the same way as those fighting receive kill experience.
In Ashes, Clerics are not all heals in any case - they are masters of death as well as life, so will have some abilities that do both (at the same time).
But healers naturally know when boss enrages cause they have to heal more and are waiting for it do heals could be given another ability to signal the party to use defensive cool downs and or us offensive cool downs to burst down enraged monster.
Kind of filling the role of command and signal. I know that world markers and icons could possibly be used to do the same thing but if healers were given custom abilites that would make them feel more involved.
Or you could just use voice chat......
That class forced you to balance offense and defense. The more you attacked, the stronger your healing/defensive spells became, and vice versa. Powerful shamans were great at switching between the two as needed, but could actually participate in combat in pvp.
AoC sounds like a system that's drawing inspiration from The Secret World, which had an AWESOME horizontal progression system. You picked out 6 active and 6 passive abilities, slotted them, and that's what you worked with. How you set your character build up determined a lot of what you could do, and you weren't shoe horned into a specific role unless you focused on it.
Every time you post, I get a notification... Wtf is going on? 😂🤣
Not really. A good leader will utilise both icons, world markers and voice chat to make things go as smoothly as possible. It's far easier to say to a raid "all stack up on the red marker" than "all stack up to the left of the boss" for example.
Raid markers and icons are tools that should be available to the raid leader, who may not necessarily be a healer.
Not really though.
I led a raid for 4 years and trust me, people are forgetfull as fuc*! Map markers and icons saved me a ton of times, and people could always reorient themselves on them without my explicit command.
yeah forgot to put the not in there sorry for confusiong edited and put it in there.
I was going to use "Log Horizon" as examples of my likes. It was interesting to see it mentioned beforehand. I agree, with Bard songs/abilities like "Coward's Fugue" (Agro reduction), "Maestro Echo" (Buff/Trigger), and "Meditation Nocturne" (MP Regen); Isuzu was very versatile in what she could do. That is the style of bard/support I would like to see here. Being able to change focus and the type of buffs being given to match the situation would be perfect. Most of the time Bards are limited in choices and are not very flexible.
For Healers, I normally avoid the main healer types, as I don't fully trust myself to safely do that. I normally go for HoT based healers, like Serara from Log Horizon; or Damage Mitigation healers, like Minori. I have less experience in Damage Mitigation style as I either can't find one I like or I can't keep them alive long enough to learn them properly.
I have no idea how the primary/secondary classes affect the character. But if there is a combination that can create a healer like Minori, I might create that type of character first. I hope there is enough variety in the styles of healers that one can find their preferred playstyle.
As to the control method, I still prefer to have a selected target casting method. Any action based target method I have tried lead to the game selecting the wrong target. A hybrid system might work where we could lock a target but still use the action targeting for secondary heals. I know I would prefer to have a lock on the tank for quick heals. I can get away hit scan for the DPS heals as those are not critical most of the time.
The supposrt class healed provided cover and defense with smoke granades
did enough dps to finish aliens provided pretty well rounded.
For For Ashes of creation there could be a mist of obscurement, buff or debuff to be applied and extra damage on toons less thant 30 percent damage and mobs to.
xcom was a great game ^^
To be specific, I guess there's two parts to that opinion. 1) Healers shouldn't be constantly healing; instead they should be DPSing and doing mechanics just like everyone else. Healing should only be necessary every ~20 seconds or so, or when other teammates are getting themselves into trouble. 2) Healers should have the power to erase/stop mistakes if they react quickly and appropriately. (And not just by rezzing.) That's the whole healer fantasy, imo: You're there to support your allies when they mess up and get into danger. So I'd like abilities like big, quick shields (on a long CD) that you can use to save someone who forgot to dodge. Alternatively, it's cool when bosses have punishing but "fixable" mechanics, like hard CC that needs to be cleansed quickly to save your allies.
I just don't want the design to be the plain old "People are constantly taking damage, so keep healing," or "People are gonna take a lot of damage twice so top people off before the second hit." I mean, those are fine mechanics as a baseline, but I'd like for other stuff to be thrown in to keep me on my toes as a healer. Stuff that actually feels like I'm pulling people out of danger, rather than just filling HP bars like a waiter going around filling water glasses.
This. Healers really do need a bigger role in combat, and I'd love a more active system where I buff, cleanse, debuff, shield, and heal.
Healers shouldn't have to DPS in my opinion, kinda depends on the style they want to play. However they should be doing far more than just healing. Snapping off barriers on the mage who gets aggro to give the tank more time to taunt it off, buff the party (hopefully with long term non-renewed buffs, DAOC had a nice concentration system for this), debuff the enemies to make them squishier, and heal when needed. Support has so much potential, and it's usually just heal bots.
Big heals (holy priest style)
Small and fast heals with shields and mitigation (discipline priest style)
Healing over time (Restoration druid style)
Aoe healing (Restoration chaman style)
Sustained healing
Clutch healing
I think there are lot of base niche and archetype that Ashes could use as an inspiration and find it's own identity from there.
Healers should not be measured by how hard and precise they can aim, so their gameplay should be more cooldown knowledge based.
On the flip side, I would like a healing kit that is engaging.
On another note though, you guys have assured me that my decision to uninstall WoW after about 20 minutes because the community is worse that LoL (which I have played on and off for years) and the healer class sounds like a snooze fest with no idea of what fun is thrown in. Yes, I would have mained a support class in WoW if I had actually played because that is what I have always been good at in several other games. In short, I am glad I uninstalled WoW because that saves me the effort of wasting my time getting to max level and finding out the support class is STILL boring.
The game you all described SEVERAL times now is TERA. There are two healer/buff classes in Tera, the Mystic and Priest. Mystic is a aura based buff/Summoner/DPS healer and one of the classes with the highest skill ceilings (Warrior class being slightly harder to master).
Then there is the Priest, otherwise known as the newb carrier. This class is a pure healing class and somewhat easy to get going with, but also has a relatively high skill ceiling, but nothing compared to the mystic. This class has so many heals both AOE and single-target, it is capable of 1%-100% healing a tank class 10 times every 5 seconds. It is my second favorite class to play in Tera (havn't played in about a year now though), right behind my Lancer (Tank class).
Healing in Tera is perfectly done with the action combat and I have not (and probably will never) seen it done better in any game on the market. People can try to say BDO is better, and in some ways it is, but the combat system is several levels better in Tera. Sadly this is one of the only selling points the game has
Agreed. I hope there are enough abilities to choose from to customize healers. Or better yet, be able to customize abilities to create interesting play styles.
Chloro was great in Rift partly because you could customize it to some degree with skill points in other souls (as well as Chloro builds that didn't sink all 61 soul points in Chloro). The other part of the Chloro's greatness was how you had to alternate from direct heals to heal-through-damage and back again constantly to get the best output - some damage abilities would increase the heal output of some healing abilities, or reduce the cast time on specific healing abilities. Made for a very fast paced and dynamic (and sometimes hectic) play style.