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Dev Discussion #12 - Raid & Event Difficulty

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  • beltarlitzbeltarlitz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm a big believer in Accessibility for different types of players but also difficulty.

    One of the best examples I can think of is on Oldschool Diablo when u dropped a legendary with good stats and since they were SO EXTREMELY RARE the sensation of achievement was insanely rewarding.

    In other words, have different types of raids catering for the different types of players you may have in your game. If you only cater to the hardcore player, you can surely expect that only hardcore players will keep playing for that achievement or gear or feat.

    Annnnd as usual, PLEASE Do not make it easy. You see the biggest example of that in The newer versions of Diablo 3 where they made legendary items drop like water and literally felt like u would just get through the game in a few hours or days. That way you give longevity of play and you will maintain the community for longer. A big example of hard but in a "challenging" manner was how old WoW used to make their dungeons in which people would take much in question of planning and tactics and organizing to achieve the win but it didn't feel boring.
  • StreetCornerPoetStreetCornerPoet Member, Alpha Two
    For me the big question is open or instanced raids because they pose very different questions and answers.

    In an open raid, if you get credit and gear just for participating regardless of if you are grouped or part of the guild that is gathering the majority of players, then no difficulty can really withstand "just zerg it until it dies." Numbers will eventually win out and you can't really have a ton of controlled fights that require puzzles or too narrow of tactics because you can't control who is showing up and if it had things you had to trigger or puzzle out trolls would flood the raid to ruin it just for fun.

    So open raids the fights should have basic things like "don't stand in AoEs" or rage/berzerk mechanics that may trigger at % health, or some type of easy to learn mass mechanics where you don't have to worry about random people coming in and purposefully ruining the raid without having to trigger PvP to do it. Also you are already adding the potential for rivals to come in and PvP/Gank you in the middle of the raid. This doesn't mean open raids can't be difficult, but it should be considered in more basic and normal raid mechanics.

    As far as instanced raids, I love puzzles or triggers that have to be done in fights or secondary parts of the fight that need to be considered outside of just a dps race while avoiding AoEs. Make some of them more like figuring out mechanics in the environment just as much as fighting the boss.

    Events have the same issues as open raids in having to balance difficulty with the possibility of being attacked by enemies. I'd love dynamic events, but you are balancing open world content with contending with zerg, open pvp, and trolls trying to make people fail the event in ways they can't be punished for. But events could also have more stages and go on longer than a more static raid area, so you could have stages that start ramping up in difficulty and adding new tactics or secondary objectives to complete for each stage and give people more time to work out the mechanics and get organized.
  • What are the "tuning knobs" that make an event or raid difficult, but fun?
    I would say it would have to be the challenge or goal that makes the difference for me. If it isn't challenging then I am probably going to see it as uninviting for me. If there isn't a real time or end goal, then most likely I am going to get bored quick.
    For me personally, my end goals vary day to day, so I am easily engaged.
    To try and answer in a more articulate fashion, raiding I find more fun if there is a building or place to conquer/defend from the enemy. Learning the strategy of the enemy force and capitalizing on it to make your opponent feel utterly demoralized. There is no better feeling than out-smarting the opponent and feeling rewarded afterwards. Whether it is instanced or not...😅
    Without barriers, on an open battlefield, any key position is vital, so the challenge remains. I assume then I have a big goal or reward at the end.
    Hopefully the challenge of everyone coordinating is like a well-oiled machine and we achieve our goal.

    Events are fun...
  • There's a lot of good discussion in this thread, and I heartily approve. My only interest in playing an MMO is the massively multiplayer, cooperative aspects of assembling a team of players and defeating the most difficult content available. Certainly, there are activities you do to support this ultimate goal, which may include crafting and group level dungeon diving. But for me those activities are just that: Activities that support the end goal.

    So, how do I view things like raiding and events? It starts with defining them. To me, a raid is something that you plan with your guild. It's content you know will be available to you, that you can access on your schedule. An event is something that is unscheduled, and may or may not be available at any given time.

    With those definitions in place, here are some thoughts.

    For both raids and events, I think it's highly important that there be many of them available. For a raiding guild, nothing drags on morale like having to do the same three raids over and over and over and over just so everyone can get "their item". I understand that there does need to be repetition, because content obviously takes time to develop. One thing that I find extremely helpful in this regard is having progressively more difficult content. When you can tell your guild "Hey, we're farming these three raids to gear ourselves up for these four more difficult raids" it sits a whole lot better with everyone.

    The above implies that raids have multiple tiers of difficulty, and so let me eliminate the implication and make it a statement: Raids should have multiple tiers of difficulty. Nothing feels better as a guild as when you finally break into the next tier of difficulty and start downing mobs. You really feel that progress, and it's quite a rush. I'm even ok with keys / flags for higher tiers of content, provided there is some sort of mechanic that allows easy replacement of retired players with new players who may not have all the right flags.

    Finally, the tiers and difficulties of each should be set by the developers in such a way that the average guilds who pursue that content complete it all just as the next wave of content hits - especially if the newest wave of content requires things from the most difficult of the previous wave. To clarify: when I say average guilds, it should be the case that 50% of active raiding guilds complete the hardest content before the new content arrives. This is an important balance point. If too many guilds complete the content prior to new, it means the content was too easy. If too few guilds complete, the content was too hard. It's a tenuous balance, but a very important one.

    For events, I think the same general principles apply. I can even see some unique possibilities regarding the difficulty and tiering of events. When I think of events, three things pop into my mind:

    • In Rift, there were zone wide events that triggered which drew players from all over to fight. These events were relatively common and they were great fun. What I liked is that these events could be disruptive for the area in which they spawned. I think that from an accessibility standpoint, they were exceptional. Anyone could show up, participate and be rewarded. I do think that there needed to be a greater spread of difficulty to them, as I cannot remember many failures. When failure isn't a possibility, the mental reward for success isn't as great.
    • In EQ2, there were contested raid bosses that popped up around the world. These raids were of average difficulty overall, but did require a coordinated effort, unlike zone events in Rift. Also unlike zone events in Rift, the average player in that zone could simply ignore (for the most part) the presence of these raid bosses. I think the biggest problem with the EQ2 incarnation was that generally the impact was so small, and the rewards so limited, there wasn't a general "need" to down these bosses. Sure, every raid guild did the boss once just to say they had, but otherwise there wasn't a need to engage them.
    • In Guild Wars, they had something that was sort of a cross between the EQ2 and Rift incarnations. GW is sort of a unique game in and of itself, so if you aren't experienced, it's a little tough to put into words. Suffice it to say that the GW version contained elements of each, but had some of the unique mechanics of GW involved as well.

    Unfortunately for each of those games, there weren't a wide variety of these things available, nor were any of them tiered in such a way as to promote any sort of progression. I think that's sad because there are a lot of possibilities for events like those to scale and create a really fun environment in the world. These events have the potential to really bring a server community - not just a guild - together. I'd like to see that really taken to an extreme.

    In all, this particular aspect of any MMO is what excites me. The large scale, cooperative effort. It's honestly what an MMO should be all about. Too many MMO's now count on players to "be" the content, and I think that's sad. I believe that a developer who challenges their audience will find the audience will absolutely love them for it.

    Regards,

    Sudedor
  • Topic said raid and event difficulty. Since it is specific to those items you could have different versions for different difficulties.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    This is from a merchant standpoint and protecting caravans and sea lanes. Tangent to PVP Raiders difficulty is will there be further development of the bounty system? That is, can mayors or guilds enlist PVP players to hunt other PVP players even though they don't have a death bounty on them. Specifically, to defend and preempt a raid on caravans or ships. Hence, lists can be filled, PVPers deputized, and the badge lets them kill PVP without gaining a bounty themselves. Basically an immunity from a bounty penalty by the mayoral or controlling guild faction. Gracias, Skaff.

    If you want to defend a caravan without gaining corruption, just defend that caravan within proximity of said caravan, as corruption isn't handed out to players for PvP kills around caravans.

    No need to create an overly complex, easily exploitable and griefable system just to do a thing that can already be done.
  • consultantconsultant Member
    edited February 2020
    What you could do as game designers is make a very difficult lets say dungeoun. Which includes some of the features that players want like robust AI. mobs using consubles haveing minor and major abilities and and so on.
    So make on a scale from 1 to 10 maybe an 11 or 12, Obviously to hard for players. So you make it less difficult until you find out what the upper limit is. Using that as a reference point you could then make moderate and easy conttent.

    Also suggest using terms like Doomsday Dungeoun, Apocalyptic Doomsday Dungeouns (AD&D) or Apocalyptic Dreadful Dungeouns of Doom. For normal medium and hard settinfgs. So if you die in a Doomsday dungeoun...welll that is why call it a doomsday dungeoun. Vs just calling hard or herioc were player could say herioc raiding is too hard. Guess they could still say it but think you get the idea.
  • The line is drawn here: If I know what I did wrong, and it's reasonably achievable, it's fun. It's frustrating when I don't know what I did wrong, if it's even my fault (server disconnect), if doing the thing is tedious, a low probability, or too complicated for my post-work brain to figure out.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    A raid should require coordination and communication to complete. If you are not in a reasonably well organized guild you won't be completing the content. How those mechanics are implemented makes it either fun or boring.
    1. Varying sets of mechanics that require players to work together or stay on their toes are good.
    2. Choreographed sequences that people just study and then roboticly maneuver through (FFIV)
    are bad.

    Events are almost the opposite. They should be more focused on player engagement. An Xmas or Easter event can be challenging but its group content should be simpler group content that can be done with those around you at the time. Think about it this way, would you want to go to a party where everyone stands around in there own cliques or would you rather go to the one where everyone interacts?
  • Balrog21Balrog21 Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't raid so blank one there,
    if it's an event make it fun...give us a damn challenge not a tedious challenge where it's 95% failure, but make it doable and fun...make us earn it!
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