Cautious Warnings - Linear Vs Varied Class combo progression

nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
edited December 2 in General Discussion
(NOTE - THIS IS A THEORY CRAFT & HYPOTHETICAL TALKING POINT FOR DEVS AND THE COMMUNITY)
-> Will preface with "I want this game to do amazing and i am happy if the team proves me wrong" But here is my issue:

If you do not understand what i am talking about please join me on discord where i can explain better than i type!

- Something needs to be said early!!
With talking to people and listening to what they know and/or think about the AoC "Class system" and what is coming: Personally i hope that many of us in the community are wrong cause we all want this game to be amazing, So... Many have let their minds run away from them in thinking that the coming system will work the way they want, Which is why i am posting this to ask / request / Challenge / Barter with the team to look at class systems and respond.

- Context and confusion!!
What we have heard be explained so far seem to counter itself which has lead to confusion and fighting over who is right, many of the sources be that Stream or Youtube / Wiki / Discord / Forum / and in VC directly differ from each other, So right now i wanted to post my feelings on this matter shared by many and possibly unknown to many many more.

- Class Combo Expectations?
Under the current Class system we are under the mindset that will see 8 Class Archetypes with 8 Sub class combos but again this through many sources has changed over time from the ideas and vision people had for this system, from one example of making a new class by combining the 2 OR sharing abilities of the 2 classes, SADLY was heard differently by many of us which is the reason we have been asking for more info ATM on Classes and class systems.

- 8 Versions of the same Core classes?
This is another topic many would like answered after conflicting statements is adding another class going to change the core class enough to make it feel different to its "Pure" class (E.g Fighter + Fighter) or is it just 8 of the same class with an ability cosmetics and Stat/buff added - Again will it change the play-style OR function in each of the 8 options per Archetype?
^
Annotation_2019-12-02_223007.png


- Are augment classes unique enough?
From the different sources including Steven himself this topic has also become confusing for the community and a heated point for some take what was said completely out of context (E.g thinking there is 64 unique classes formed from combining the 2 classes forming a new class OR that adding the secondary class will change the role of the core class) Which is not the case going from all the sources and seems that many Augments will carry over to each core class vertically (Good or Bad).
^
Annotation_2019-12-02_223034.png


- Roles should not be classes and player burnout!?!
This is one of the biggest worries and can ripple out causing other issues that can potentially drop player numbers, building a class with a narrow focus works better in a single player game So the team will just have to prove us wrong hopefully, but this type of design can cause players to burn out with the limited flexibility to "Mix things up" without pushing players way from their main to playing Alts be that to fill a different role or play-style not given by their main...

- Worries and the effects of Linear Vs Variable Roles?!
This is more a personal issue of mine but more and more seem to feel the same about not having options to have more then 1 class fill another role withing the "holy trinity" increasing the potential for players to not playing alts over their mains....
this also ripples out via 40 man raids Vs Dungeons where the number of tanks / Clerics / Bards that will miss out if the number of roles is equal to other games doing the same!! And adds to the factor of people already feeling the classes are not going to be equal for day to day functions / tasks between each Class / Role!!

- Thoughts in Closing
> PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG <
I REALLY want this Company to be successful and the games to do extremely well BUT i will voice my opinions and give feedback when i think someone needs to hear a different view or potential issues coming up, like my push for Tank to be replaced by druid still a defence class and the class combo names and the same goes for how the classes with "role" function work on paper BUT might not work well in the long run and i personally would Flip the Augment to the first pick and the Core function / play style would come second allowing the player to adapt and fill a needed role.
( Good example the Spellstone could be a Mage caster that adapts to use magic to tank a Dungeon/raid vs current model)
^ (NOTE this image is only to be used as a reference)
Class_role_chart.PNG


Thank again <3 (please be nice to each other in the comments!)
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Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited December 2
    TL;DR - more details about how secondary archetypes work, please...besides just a few examples of augments.
    (the annotation images are broken for me)

  • FooshyyFooshyy Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People
    You think especially now and days there would be an off-spec for tank so he can be a mediocre dps boy, vs just a tank. Class burn out going to be huge.
    anZ05s6.png
  • MesisMesis Member
    I share the same thoughts.
    Currently I imagine it as Diablo 3 spell modifiers or whatever they are called, hopefully not a case.
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    Mesis wrote: »
    I share the same thoughts.
    Currently I imagine it as Diablo 3 spell modifiers or whatever they are called, hopefully not a case.

    Yeah the D3 "Rune system" only this one will be MORE limited !!!
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    Dygz wrote: »
    TL;DR - more details about how secondary archetypes work, please...besides just a few examples of augments.
    (the annotation images are broken for me)

    Yes and NO as we do need info but we are also going off how they were going to function like the Tank row is the ONLY tank and thats ALL that tanks can do (Tanks do 25-50% less damage the DPS classes) this is also a worry due to the system being a "D3 Rune system" with MORE limits!!

    if what i posted is even half correct you will lose a LARGE chunk of the player base!!
  • skafftarussskafftaruss Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People
    edited December 2
    In my opinion - the bard is another version of an enchanter class from EQ (pure caster). Yup, that's right, a lot of people want to be one, but only one of the uber will get invited to the raid. Two bards in a group - are you kidding? I remember the auto hit point damage chart - pure caster always at the bottom. Great for alacrity, mezzing, or mana (whore) buffs. So is a bard like a 'swashy' - enchanter with a dash of fighter? My experience and some of others being ignored for LFG spots has left me cautious of Jeffery Bard's favorite archtype. Think I'll go hybrid healer. People were always looking for the triad: Tank, DPS, & Healer. Cheers! ;)
  • Fooshyy wrote: »
    You think especially now and days there would be an off-spec for tank so he can be a mediocre dps boy, vs just a tank. Class burn out going to be huge.

    I actually think that classes like Tank/Cleric and Tank/Bard will be the best off-tanks. They would most likely bring extra survivability for the main tank and melee dps, so that healers can in turn focus on ranged dps.
    KkvMmA5.png
  • In my opinion - the bard is another version of an enchanter class from EQ (pure caster). Yup, that's right, a lot of people want to be one, but only one of the uber will get invited to the raid. Two bards in a group - are you kidding? I remember the auto hit point damage chart - pure caster always at the bottom. Great for alacrity, mezzing, or mana (whore) buffs. So is a bard like a 'swashy' - enchanter with a dash of fighter? My experience and some of others being ignored for LFG spots has left me cautious of Jeffery Bard's favorite archtype. Think I'll go hybrid healer. People were always looking for the triad: Tank, PDF, or Healer. Cheers! ;)

    I think the bard here will be more like a chanter from AION. They are always welcome to a party and do medium dps. Thats at least what i get from their desciptions of bard gameplay.
    KkvMmA5.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited December 2
    Dygz wrote: »
    TL;DR - more details about how secondary archetypes work, please...besides just a few examples of augments.
    Yes and NO as we do need info but we are also going off how they were going to function like the Tank row is the ONLY tank and thats ALL that tanks can do (Tanks do 25-50% less damage the DPS classes) this is also a worry due to the system being a "D3 Rune system" with MORE limits!!
    if what i posted is even half correct you will lose a LARGE chunk of the player base!!
    There is no way for you to know what Primary Tanks can and cannot do, let alone what Secondary Tanks can and cannot do, because we barely have any info regarding Tank abilities and only have a handful of abilities tab-target abilities touched on for half the Primary Tanks. We have no data that supports the claim that Tanks can only do 20-50% less damage than the DPS classes. Which is why we need more info before jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence.

    Where are you getting D3 Rune system from?
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited December 2
    What we have heard be explained so far seem to counter itself
    but again this through many sources has changed over time
    From the different sources including Steven himself this topic has also become confusing
    I'm curious if you could link any first party (ie, from Intrepid) examples of this.
    I see examples of this kind of thing from third parties all the time, but that is just people expressing their opinions/hopes with no more information than any of the rest of us have - and if someone reads a third party piece and assumes it is credible, they deserve to be confused.
    To be clear, I'm not saying I don't think you're right that conflicting information from Intrepid is out there, but posting specific examples would help the discussion.
  • GimlogGimlog Member
    edited December 3
    I wonder, if most of the issue could be fix by a idea I got while I read some of the topics about worries on the 64 classes and there balances/viability.

    If the guardian is the class that got the biggest taunt and resistance, but the less damage.

    The 7 others tank archetype base class are less effective in focusing damages on them self but deal more damage and some subclass flavour.

    And the 7 tank subclass would be more tanky than a none tank subclass , deal correct damage and some of the augment on there ability have buff effect.

    Up here are stuff I could expect from everything I read and watch that IS share.

    Now what would make groups wanting some of those none pure class , could be the mobs system.
    They have said that they are going to use the last AI generation.
    If there where mobs spawning near boss that are rogue like , avoiding taunt and attacking only play that can't block more than 50% of there damage , I thinks those 14 tank class could be useful.

    I think the solution for the balance in group for dungeon are the way those mobs will work in it.

    But just a thought.

    Ps: and don't forget Steven like risk and reward, it probably apply in the augment to.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Only Tank is going to get Taunt. Guardian will probably be able to double-down on that compared to the other Tank sub-classes. Which should be fine. Warden will probably use some kind of Ranger snare or root augment to accomplish a similar function.
    Shouldn't really matter what the group wants. All of the Tank sub-classes should be able to fulfill the Tank role sufficiently. It's just a matter of how the player wants to enact that role.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    edited December 3
    Dygz wrote: »
    Only Tank is going to get Taunt. Guardian will probably be able to double-down on that compared to the other Tank sub-classes. Which should be fine. Warden will probably use some kind of Ranger snare or root augment to accomplish a similar function.
    Shouldn't really matter what the group wants. All of the Tank sub-classes should be able to fulfill the Tank role sufficiently. It's just a matter of how the player wants to enact that role.

    It would make sense, if the Guardian could aoe taunt.
    Knight: parry specialist and reflecting damage
    Guardian: master of threat controll
    Nightshield: Evasion specialist
    Warden: area denial and terraforming (thorns bursting out of the ground around him etc)
    Spellshield: magic negation and projectile protection
    Keeper: summoning creatures to absorb damage taken, partial transformation?
    Paladin: damage negation and selfhealing
    Argent: debuffing enemies and buffing himself/surrounding allies

    Would be nice if i was right, but we will ofc have to see. Most of those ideas are what came to me, when i thought of each of the subclass names. The knight for example is the fighter subcategory, where it would make sense that he focuses on weapon specific techniques and relies on his combat experience. The Argent means something that is made of silver, a reflective metal, which has properties to interact with surrounding matter (sailors used silver rods to purify water on long journeys for example).
    KkvMmA5.png
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    Damokles wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Only Tank is going to get Taunt. Guardian will probably be able to double-down on that compared to the other Tank sub-classes. Which should be fine. Warden will probably use some kind of Ranger snare or root augment to accomplish a similar function.
    Shouldn't really matter what the group wants. All of the Tank sub-classes should be able to fulfill the Tank role sufficiently. It's just a matter of how the player wants to enact that role.

    It would make sense, if the Guardian could aoe taunt.
    Knight: parry specialist and reflecting damage
    Guardian: master of threat controll
    Nightshield: Evasion specialist
    Warden: area denial and terraforming (thorns bursting out of the ground around him etc)
    Spellshield: magic negation and projectile protection
    Keeper: summoning creatures to absorb damage taken, partial transformation?
    Paladin: damage negation and selfhealing
    Argent: debuffing enemies and buffing himself/surrounding allies

    Would be nice if i was right, but we will ofc have to see. Most of those ideas are what came to me, when i thought of each of the subclass names. The knight for example is the fighter subcategory, where it would make sense that he focuses on weapon specific techniques and relies on his combat experience. The Argent means something that is made of silver, a reflective metal, which has properties to interact with surrounding matter (sailors used silver rods to purify water on long journeys for example).

    THIS IS WHAT I AM SAYING
    talking to the devs and listening to livestreams thats NOT what we are getting
    WE WILL NOT KNOW UNTIL A2
    then it is too late to change it without more delays
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    Gimlog wrote: »
    I wonder, if most of the issue could be fix by a idea I got while I read some of the topics about worries on the 64 classes and there balances/viability.

    If the guardian is the class that got the biggest taunt and resistance, but the less damage.

    The 7 others tank archetype base class are less effective in focusing damages on them self but deal more damage and some subclass flavour.

    And the 7 tank subclass would be more tanky than a none tank subclass , deal correct damage and some of the augment on there ability have buff effect.

    Up here are stuff I could expect from everything I read and watch that IS share.

    Now what would make groups wanting some of those none pure class , could be the mobs system.
    They have said that they are going to use the last AI generation.
    If there where mobs spawning near boss that are rogue like , avoiding taunt and attacking only play that can't block more than 50% of there damage , I thinks those 14 tank class could be useful.

    I think the solution for the balance in group for dungeon are the way those mobs will work in it.

    But just a thought.

    Ps: and don't forget Steven like risk and reward, it probably apply in the augment to.

    Steven also said he wants player choice to matter and have weight BUT if he removes these things like i said it will be a shit show
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    Dygz wrote: »
    Only Tank is going to get Taunt. Guardian will probably be able to double-down on that compared to the other Tank sub-classes. Which should be fine. Warden will probably use some kind of Ranger snare or root augment to accomplish a similar function.
    Shouldn't really matter what the group wants. All of the Tank sub-classes should be able to fulfill the Tank role sufficiently. It's just a matter of how the player wants to enact that role.

    From what was ALL 8 tanks have the same core Abilities and they add 1 passive then on each ability you can add 1 active "Buff/effect" that can not be directly taken from another core class (Example he said "any class plus Cleric will not just get healing no they will get other divine buffs.... maybe like 10% of abilities would get a small self heal if we had that)
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Only Tank is going to get Taunt. Guardian will probably be able to double-down on that compared to the other Tank sub-classes. Which should be fine. Warden will probably use some kind of Ranger snare or root augment to accomplish a similar function.
    Shouldn't really matter what the group wants. All of the Tank sub-classes should be able to fulfill the Tank role sufficiently. It's just a matter of how the player wants to enact that role.

    From what was ALL 8 tanks have the same core Abilities and they add 1 passive then on each ability you can add 1 active "Buff/effect" that can not be directly taken from another core class (Example he said "any class plus Cleric will not just get healing no they will get other divine buffs.... maybe like 10% of abilities would get a small self heal if we had that)

    I think, what @Dygz meant was, that the main class Tank has the Taunt ability, while the other classes with the subclass as tank wont have that.
    KkvMmA5.png
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    While I understand people's fears regarding the classes I'd like to point out that stats and circumstances make a huge difference. We don't yet know how the fights will play out so we don't know what classes will be able to do what. Just look at what happened in GW2, where the Elementalist has the highest healing output of all the classes but Druids are taken more often due to the buffs they offer the group. You'd also think looking at the classes that the Guardian would be the dominant tank, and yet the most common tank used in raids is the Chronomancer.

    I see no point in worrying so much about this kind of thing until we get more information about how the fights will work.
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    While I understand people's fears regarding the classes I'd like to point out that stats and circumstances make a huge difference. We don't yet know how the fights will play out so we don't know what classes will be able to do what. Just look at what happened in GW2, where the Elementalist has the highest healing output of all the classes but Druids are taken more often due to the buffs they offer the group. You'd also think looking at the classes that the Guardian would be the dominant tank, and yet the most common tank used in raids is the Chronomancer.

    I see no point in worrying so much about this kind of thing until we get more information about how the fights will work.

    Dont thats where you have a Choice here you do not each class has a role and a Function
    Going off of Steven's own descriptions:
    Tank - Defensive & control (Tank Duh)
    Cleric - Life conversion (Healer)
    Bard - Manipulation (Buff/healer)
    Fighter - Mobile sustained Melee
    Rogue - Deceptive Burst Melee
    Mage - Elemental Range (Possibly AoE Based)
    Ranger - Cunning Range (Focuses / traps)
    Summoner - Remote Combat (This class changes roles every time someone asks)

    Adding a Cleric / Fighter / Mage to a Prime class say Tank does not increase DPS!!
    Same goes for adding each class together it does not change it but adds a "Buff" of sorts!

    Sadly for me this means if your are a Class you will ALWAYS choose from the same list of abilities,
    Always fill the same role as the prime / core class you picked there is very little flex in the idea,
    adding augments does not alter the ability like people think or it would be fine but still not the case!

    Look i hope and wish i was wrong Steven has been this post already and i just hope it lets the think about the long term of the game as a whole not the narrow focus many have sorry to say but many focus on just their main class and how much they like it but an MMO needs players and if people are not help you will end up playing in an empty MMO and NONE of us want that right ?
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    Damokles wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Only Tank is going to get Taunt. Guardian will probably be able to double-down on that compared to the other Tank sub-classes. Which should be fine. Warden will probably use some kind of Ranger snare or root augment to accomplish a similar function.
    Shouldn't really matter what the group wants. All of the Tank sub-classes should be able to fulfill the Tank role sufficiently. It's just a matter of how the player wants to enact that role.

    From what was ALL 8 tanks have the same core Abilities and they add 1 passive then on each ability you can add 1 active "Buff/effect" that can not be directly taken from another core class (Example he said "any class plus Cleric will not just get healing no they will get other divine buffs.... maybe like 10% of abilities would get a small self heal if we had that)

    I think, what @Dygz meant was, that the main class Tank has the Taunt ability, while the other classes with the subclass as tank wont have that.

    All 8 Tanks are the same only "Buffs" change same with every other class and thats what worries many atm!!
    currently i cant see a silver lining and we dont get to see or give feedback on this until Alpha 2 (when it is too late to change things if it is that bad without massive delays !!!)
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Um. All 8 of the subclasses with Tank as primary archetype will share the same pool of abilities. Each of the subclasses will have several augments that could be applied to a Tank ability. From the last dev lifestream, it seems that each subclass also has different passives.
    We don't have enough details regarding what else besides augments and passives may differentiate the subclasses under a primary archetype from each other.
    I don't understand why you think Alpha 2 will be too late for the devs to make the changes they want.
    We already have massive delays. And we should not be surprised if there are more.
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    Dygz wrote: »
    Um. All 8 of the subclasses with Tank as primary archetype will share the same pool of abilities. Each of the subclasses will have several augments that could be applied to a Tank ability. From the last dev lifestream, it seems that each subclass also has different passives.
    We don't have enough details regarding what else besides augments and passives may differentiate the subclasses under a primary archetype from each other.
    I don't understand why you think Alpha 2 will be too late for the devs to make the changes they want.
    We already have massive delays. And we should not be surprised if there are more.

    - Doing these tests for many companies we learned from them that by Alpha 2 all major milestones are locked in due to the ripple effect changing 1 thing can do..... Classes are one of those things!!
    im talking a delay of 6 - 12 months for the release of the game.....

    On the subclass augments Steven said minor changes to the core ability (eg slash + Augment based on class like i listed above) But Steven has seen this so i hope they are talking about it now more than later!! :dizzy:
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited December 6
    Traditionally, things are locked in at Beta, not Alpha. (I worked as a game dev for 10 years.)
    But, these days Alpha and Beta primarily refer to early access.
    The last we heard, Alpha 2 is when the devs begin external testing for secondary archetypes - that is when they will consider significant changes. Makes no sense for them to say that's too late for them to make the changes.

    Just this year, we had a delay of 6+ months. We shouldn't be surprised if there is another one once we begin testing Alpha 1 and/or Alpha 2.

    You say Steven said minor changes, but he actually said "fundamentally change(s)"...
    Here is a direct quote:
    Q: In regards to secondary classes - will there just be visual changes to main abilities, or will they fundamentally change the way the ability works?
    A: They will fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary class.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/aomez2/february_8_2019_questions_and_answers/
  • It is never too late for drastic changes. Did you know that the WoW Classic Paladin was actually a last minute decision? They had a totally different gameplay in the Beta, but were changed in the last second. Thhat was also the reason, why they did not work well. They got the idea for the seals last minute and scrapped the actual design of the class for it...
    KkvMmA5.png
  • FooshyyFooshyy Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People
    edited December 6
    Dygz wrote: »
    A: They will fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary class.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/aomez2/february_8_2019_questions_and_answers/

    FUNDAMENTALLY:
    in central or primary respects

    So is the idea of skills changing say a charge ability that leaps to target within 10meters, to "blink / teleport" to target with 10meters.

    If so that's just cosmetic flair?

    Will they change an instant damage skill to a damage overtime?

    Is it changing element of said skill to negate all armor bonuses? Like a true damage?

    Maybe they don't know yet, why we haven't been really given a direction. I for one, would love to hear an example of how an ability would change
    anZ05s6.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited December 6
    Paladins can add a self-heal as an augment to a tank ability. That is not just cosmetic flair.
  • FooshyyFooshyy Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People
    Dygz wrote: »
    Paladins can add a self-heal as an augment to a tank ability. That is not just cosmetic flair.

    Edited above. At work so. Doing the best I can. Thanks for this.

    Do you know anything else about secondaries?
    anZ05s6.png
  • FooshyyFooshyy Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People
    Dygz wrote: »
    Paladins can add a self-heal as an augment to a tank ability. That is not just cosmetic flair.

    Like a little buff? But not changing the core mechanic of base skill.
    anZ05s6.png
  • FooshyyFooshyy Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People
    Dygz wrote: »
    Paladins can add a self-heal as an augment to a tank ability. That is not just cosmetic flair.
    "When you pick the Cleric as a secondary class, two of the augments are Life and Death, basically. And choosing Life augments on certain skills will have the ability to both potentially impact others to a degree and give them life-giving benefits to a degree -through your skills- and also provide healing benefits for yourself through your skills. So, pretty much any class that is going to choose Cleric as a secondary class will have the ability to pick from those augments to influence their skills and to affect the lives of others around you...and yourself."
    ---Steven


    Oh snap okay. I see I see
    anZ05s6.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds

    "When you pick the Cleric as a secondary class, two of the augments are Life and Death, basically. And choosing Life augments on certain skills will have the ability to both potentially impact others to a degree and give them life-giving benefits to a degree -through your skills- and also provide healing benefits for yourself through your skills. So, pretty much any class that is going to choose Cleric as a secondary class will have the ability to pick from those augments to influence their skills and to affect the lives of others around you...and yourself."
    ---Steven

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