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Alchemy with real experiment feeling

GhoostyGhoosty Member
edited December 2019 in General Discussion
Many-many years ago, when I did not have internet access, I played with Might&Magic. (Lot of people probably know it.) In this game, there were alchemy in different way what we have nowadays. You did not have recipes. You had to buy flasks and mix the herbs. If you chose wrong components, the mixture exploded and your characters damaged. After you had some basic potions, you were able to mix them. If you mixed them wrong, the explosion coming. To find out all possible potions, you had to make lot of experiment with them. Unfortunately, the internet killed these 'mini-games'. You just google the recipes and you can make it immediately. So I thought about it lot, how can make this feeling live again.

My solution is personally generated unique recipe for everyone. But how can we implement it?

First, we set the herbs into level categories. We have multiple herbs with same level category for example we have 5 type of lvl 1. Herb.
We can have multiple type of flask, with multiple level. lvl 1: glass flask or crystal flask, lvl 2 enhanced crystal flask, for example we have 2 type of lvl1 Flask.
If necessary we can add a third type of component for example catalyst.

The alchemy skill determine how difficult experiment can you prepare. For example:
Level 1. Basic potions experiment:
2 pieces lvl1 herb + 1 lvl1 flask.

If we use the example numbers, we can see that we have 50 unique combination of herbs and flasks. But we only have 5 available basic potion. So the rest 45 experiment can cause some trouble for the alchemist. It can be health damage, can be durability damage, experiment tool disintegration or a longer debuff etc.
if we want to decrease the possible combination, we can set it to specify a flask or specify that need to use different herb. With this 2 restriction, we have only 20 combinations.
If we would like to increase the combinations we can add more necessary herbs. If we increase the need to 3 pieces of lvl1 herb, the combination increase to 250. This probably an overkill, so we should integrate the catalyst. If we have 2 type of lvl1 catalyst, it just increase the combination to 100.

Once you have a successful experiment, you receive the potion recipe forever.
A the beginning you will not even know what kind of potions are existing, but late you will know at least where you should search for what you needed.
For you the minor health potion is 1 blue berry and 1 red grass, but for somebody else, it needs 2 red berry. So you will not be able to find the recipes on the internet, you have to make experiments.
This also cause that even if the community use only a few type of potions the raw material demand will be equal within same level thanks to the unique recipes.
(The different ingredients for the same potions is a little bit immersion breaking, but I think we can live with it.)

Other thoughts with same topic:
-Alchemy skill level can increase the power of the same potion
-We can have items what increase the alchemy skill
-The high level potion recipes can have extreme amount of combination if we integrate recipe fragments as loot. (for example the recipe fragments tells that the dragon power potion needs at least 1 mandrake or the dragon power potion will not need blue components.)
-if we would like to decrease the time till the alchemist discover every potions, we can use a special debuff. Failed experiment cause random (0-5 stack) stackable 24h debuff. If the debuff reach 5 stack you will not be able to do experiment again.

What are your thoughts?
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Comments

  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I still like the Skyrim alchemy system the most tbh.
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  • I have never played with Skyrim, but now, I read about its system a bit. From other perspective it is also good system that you can combine the ingredients depend on what you want, but my main issue is also there, with a fast search you will know the effect of each components. Maybe this is just my fad.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2019
    Can't really prevent players from using Google to log which resources have which properties and the results of reagent combos.
    Really depends on how many reagents there are and whether race, skill, time of year, etc, play a role in the final products.

    Get off my lawn!!
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Can't really prevent players from using Google to log which resources have which properties and the results of reagent combos.

    If you are talking about Skyrim system, probably you are right.
    If you talk about my system, I prevented it. There is only a minor use of Google in my system. You just able to google out what can a result be, but you will never know exactly how can you achieve it. You must do experiments to find your own receipts.
    Dygz wrote: »
    Really depends on how many reagents there are and whether race, skill, time of year, etc, play a role in the final products.

    This is just fine tuning. We also can add some boost element what does not have affect for the experiment, but can enhance the final product.
    Dygz wrote: »
    Get off my lawn!!

    Is this some kind of 'meme'/'joke' what I do not know? It sounds very offensive, but I did not do anything against you.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    For Alchemy, the properties of reagents need to be reliable. Otherwise, it's really just wing and a prayer.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_kids_get_off_my_lawn!
  • @Dygz I do not really understand you or you do not understand me. Nearly 90% of the games I played the crafting is simple and boring. You buy or receive the recipe from the trainer and you see you need 1 herb and 1 another herb. After that you can just create exactly same item as many as you want. (Some cases there are chance to create a better one.) (WOW, RIFT, Neverwinter Online, Pillars of Ethernity I, etc)
    I just modified this system that you do not receive the recipe, you need to experiment it. After you found a recipe everything work as same as the other games. If in these games the reagents are reliable, in my system they will be as same as reliable.

    I read that wikipedia article, but I still do not understand. Why the alchemy is your field? If you mean the "trivial or petty complaint" part, I do not complain, I brought an idea what I found more interesting than the other I met recently.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2019
    I'm actually coming from the KOA: Reckoning perspective - which appears to be close to the Skyrim system for Alchemy.
    If the reagents are reliable, the results will make their way to Google - I know because I was one of the people adding that info to the KOA: Reckoning wiki.

    You stated that the results should be a personally generated unique recipe for everyone... that is not an example of reliable Alchemy.
    One of the ways to keep the discovery fun is for the devs to keep adding new reagents, but... new reagents will also appear with the rise and fall of Nodes and the buildings we develop in the cities/metros.

    Get off my lawn means - it's not that it's your own personal fad - you're just old... so you hate Google. :p
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Well there already is a game that uses something close to what you're searching for. In Life Is Feudal, each player spawns into the game world with a personalized set of alchemy effects. In other words, every ingredient does something different for you than it does for someone else. While this does keep up that personal experience of finding what works, it breaks any sort or reliable market, and doesn't allow for any measure of rarity. As soon as their is any reliability to the system, people will fill the wiki with what makes what, how long it takes, how much, and even how valuable. This isn't something you can ever stop, without making it a completely randomized system, which has it's own pretty heavy drawbacks. Unfortunately, genie is out of the bottle, you're never going to have that experience you once did.
  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I don't think it makes logical sense for different players to have unique requirements to make potions. Herbs should have specific properties that you can combine into a potion. It doesn't really make sense for a red berry to have the healing property for one player and a mana regen property for another player.
    I agree that players should have to experiment with different herbs to learn recipes rather than learning them from a trainer. I also don't like the idea of having level ranges to herbs, I think a better system would be to explore the world looking for different herbs to experiment with, this could vary from server to server since how the world develops will be unique to the server which would reduce the prevalence of online guides since where to find these herbs wouldn't be universal.
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  • GhoostyGhoosty Member
    edited December 2019
    @Dygz I am not that old and I like the Google very much. I also use it day by day. While I wrote this comment, I used it at least 4 times to check the spelling, the correct meaning of some word, what system are somebody else talk about. Just sometimes we should not use it. In a single player game I have no issue with it. I use it only if I have to, I do not care about others. But an MMORPG is competitive. If I do not use it, but others does, I will have disadvantage.

    I used wow's alchemy as base. It has very simple craft mechanic. The ingredients itself does not have any effect, only the prepared potion has effect, but each created potion is the same. I just want to hide the recipe what can reveal with experiment. The online databases ruins this so I had to found out the random recipe. In this system each ingredients are reliable. They are raw material for potions every time you use them, you will have same result. So if this system is OK for wow, a same system with a little upgrade should be OK as well.

    @Ventharien When I read about Skyrim like alchemy my first thought was that it also can be randomized, but my 2nd thought was that it makes the market very difficult.
    That is why in my system I talked about standardized ingredients and standardized potions. You can buy the same as everybody and sell the same as everybody so the market can find out the price.

    "doesn't allow for any measure of rarity." We can talk about rarity. There can be powerful potions what need rare material what even is loot from hard enemies.


    @Azryil You are right it is illogical. But in each game there are lot of illogical things. Multiple head looted from bosses for quests. If you need to loot teeth, you find only 1/animal. To your bag, you can put multiple amour. You can swim in full plate armour etc. We do not notice them, because we used to it.
    If you do not like the level, we can categorize them differently like mountain flower, forest leaves etc. The importance is that we have to reduce the number of the combination, because it can skyrocket fast.

    But I like your half solution.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited December 2019
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    For you the minor health potion is 1 blue berry and 1 red grass, but for somebody else, it needs 2 red berry.
    The major issue with things like this is that they only work in a single player setting.

    If I am making and selling a health potion that uses 1 blue berry and 1 red grass, and you are selling the same potion that only uses 2 blue berries, if I am able to get red grass for less than the cost of blue berries, you will never be able to sell one of your potions for a profit.

    Ever.

    This system basically makes the viability of your alchemist 100% tied to RNG in terms of which recipes you are given, which I don't onsider a good system.

    On the other hand, if effort is made to mitigate this by making all alchemy materials equal in terms of cost (time to forage, time to grow etc), and are also all able to be used in all potion recipes depending on RNG, the question then becomes, why even bother? If all materials cost the same and can be used the same, why not just have a single "generic" alchemy ingredient, and leave it to alchemists to decide what effect the potion will have?

    Personally, I prefer the Elder Scrolls system. That said, I'd love to see an Elder Scrolls system where each individual craft only makes 1% (or less) of an actual usable potion, with alchemists then setting up machines like in Opus Magnum to make potions automatically.

    That would be a good MMO alchemy system.
  • noaani wrote: »
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    For you the minor health potion is 1 blue berry and 1 red grass, but for somebody else, it needs 2 red berry.
    The major issue with things like this is that they only work in a single player setting.

    If I am making and selling a health potion that uses 1 blue berry and 1 red grass, and you are selling the same potion that only uses 2 blue berries, if I am able to get red grass for less than the cost of blue berries, you will never be able to sell one of your potions for a profit.

    Ever.

    This system basically makes the viability of your alchemist 100% tied to RNG in terms of which recipes you are given, which I don't onsider a good system.

    On the other hand, if effort is made to mitigate this by making all alchemy materials equal in terms of cost (time to forage, time to grow etc), and are also all able to be used in all potion recipes depending on RNG, the question then becomes, why even bother? If all materials cost the same and can be used the same, why not just have a single "generic" alchemy ingredient, and leave it to alchemists to decide what effect the potion will have?

    Personally, I prefer the Elder Scrolls system. That said, I'd love to see an Elder Scrolls system where each individual craft only makes 1% (or less) of an actual usable potion, with alchemists then setting up machines like in Opus Magnum to make potions automatically.

    That would be a good MMO alchemy system.

    ^ This. As much as i'd love for an organic world where my recipes are my own, the only way this is accomplished is if people arent posting tested recipes on the internet which wont happen. Kind of like being that slimy merchant that sells trash at exorbitant prices just because said trash has never been seen before in the market or because no one has knowledge of it. Unfortunately this can't happen because as soon as something is made, it will be on the internet the next day and everyone will know the recipe and the quality and price of ingredients required. Still i understand where OP is coming from and wish for something similar.
    Where there is light, there is shadow. I am the shadow without the light. The shadow of nothingness. The VoidShadow
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    @Dygz I am not that old and I like the Google very much. I also use it day by day. While I wrote this comment, I used it at least 4 times to check the spelling, the correct meaning of some word, what system are somebody else talk about. Just sometimes we should not use it. In a single player game I have no issue with it. I use it only if I have to, I do not care about others. But an MMORPG is competitive. If I do not use it, but others does, I will have disadvantage.
    Sometimes, you just have to go with the joke. :p

    I think in Ashes, we will be distinguishing ourselves with access to unique/rare reagents and skill levels. Tools might also be a factor - that is included in the design for Chronicles of Elyria but, I doubt to the same degree in Ashes. I think we will still be able to have some unique/rare recipes. And, I expect race to have some factor, even if it's just racial recipes.
    But, we shall see.
  • @noaani
    "If I am making and selling a health potion that uses 1 blue berry and 1 red grass, and you are selling the same potion that only uses 2 blue berries, if I am able to get red grass for less than the cost of blue berries, you will never be able to sell one of your potions for a profit."

    That is why I included the level of the raw material. I expect that the availability of same level raw materials will be the same. So the price should not be very different.

    "This system basically makes the viability of your alchemist 100% tied to RNG in terms of which recipes you are given, which I don't onsider a good system."

    You have the possibility to get all recipes, but if you are unlucky, you will need more experiment. But to reduce the 100% RNG I brought up the recipe fragment as loot. So if you hunt for them you will need much less experiment. If you spend more time with experiment or with recipe hunting you will have more recipe. So it is not 100% random.

    "On the other hand, if effort is made to mitigate this by making all alchemy materials equal in terms of cost (time to forage, time to grow etc), and are also all able to be used in all potion recipes depending on RNG, the question then becomes, why even bother? If all materials cost the same and can be used the same, why not just have a single "generic" alchemy ingredient, and leave it to alchemists to decide what effect the potion will have?"

    Because this is a minigame in the game and I found it interesting. Why should we walk to the entrance of the dungeon, when we can teleport there? Why should I talk with others when we can have automatic LFG system? If we remove all these "minigames" from everywhere, we will get the idle games category.
    But as nobody wrote that it would be fun, probably only a few person would find it enjoyable. :(

    "Personally, I prefer the Elder Scrolls system. That said, I'd love to see an Elder Scrolls system where each individual craft only makes 1% (or less) of an actual usable potion, with alchemists then setting up machines like in Opus Magnum to make potions automatically.

    That would be a good MMO alchemy system."


    I did not play with the Elder Scrolls series. I wanted to like them but their skill progression system and the thing that the enemies become stronger when I level up caused that I was not able to enjoy it. As you are not the first who mention it as a good example probably it has good system.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I have to say, that it is an interesting system for a SINGLEPLAYER game. Mmorpg gamesystems chould never be rng at the very beginning. People dont like being forced to grind something that is given to other people for free.
    Imagine:
    You had bad and got a REALLY bad roll on late game recipes, while someone else got lucky and got good ones. Now you have to grind those recipe fragments, while the other person doesnt.

    I think that skyrims system is the best for an mmorpg, where you have to experiment.
    You could find out the necessary ingredient properties in four ways: a 10% chance to learn it ny eating them, 100% chance by reading about them, learning about them from a teacher or through monster loot.
    With monster loot, i mean for example a ripped page from an old tome, where its different reaction with other reagents.

    The late game spect would be, that there are no teachers to tell you what they do, and the ingredients aretoo precious to eat them. You would have to either find old books in old tombs or castles(maybe even siege an enemy node to obtain their books) or get lucky and get the information from specific rare mobs (like a max lvl corrupted undead alchemist).
    roaaztC.gif
  • Damokles wrote: »
    You could find out the necessary ingredient properties in four ways: a 10% chance to learn it ny eating them, 100% chance by reading about them, learning about them from a teacher or through monster loot.
    With monster loot, i mean for example a ripped page from an old tome, where its different reaction with other reagents.

    The late game spect would be, that there are no teachers to tell you what they do, and the ingredients aretoo precious to eat them. You would have to either find old books in old tombs or castles(maybe even siege an enemy node to obtain their books) or get lucky and get the information from specific rare mobs (like a max lvl corrupted undead alchemist).

    This would be a great system, I do not even bother with my system if there were not online databases. But in these databases you will find the information which ingredient do what. So you never need to eat for the 10% because google know it for 100%. Once somebody post the rare material effect to the internet everybody will know it.
    Azryil mentioned a good idea to make the ingredient effect unique by server so the databases will not be general, but this just a half solution.
    The other solution is unique effect for everybody, but this was also mentioned that it cause trouble in trading.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    You could find out the necessary ingredient properties in four ways: a 10% chance to learn it ny eating them, 100% chance by reading about them, learning about them from a teacher or through monster loot.
    With monster loot, i mean for example a ripped page from an old tome, where its different reaction with other reagents.

    The late game spect would be, that there are no teachers to tell you what they do, and the ingredients aretoo precious to eat them. You would have to either find old books in old tombs or castles(maybe even siege an enemy node to obtain their books) or get lucky and get the information from specific rare mobs (like a max lvl corrupted undead alchemist).

    This would be a great system, I do not even bother with my system if there were not online databases. But in these databases you will find the information which ingredient do what. So you never need to eat for the 10% because google know it for 100%. Once somebody post the rare material effect to the internet everybody will know it.
    Azryil mentioned a good idea to make the ingredient effect unique by server so the databases will not be general, but this just a half solution.
    The other solution is unique effect for everybody, but this was also mentioned that it cause trouble in trading.

    The thing is that you cant just learn the reaction for the ingredients from the internet.
    I forgot to write it in my other post:
    You can only use ingredients in brewing, where the character already knows what they do. That way you cant just read it only, but rather have to also find a way in the game for your character to learn it.
    roaaztC.gif
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2019
    I'd like to point out that just because you can google search for shortcuts doesn't mean you have to. If you want to do things the old fashioned way there is nothing stopping you from doing so. However, there are other people who want efficiency, to get the best results by the fastest method, usually as a means to an end. If I make an alt character that I specifically want to use for raiding, and need to make my own potions for raiding, the last thing I want to do is fumble around for hours with ingredient combinations when I could just look up the answer in 5 seconds.

    I'm not saying you are wrong in wanting to discover things on your own, but at the same time you shouldn't try to deny people who value efficiency.

    Oh and as a side note, true creativity and experimentation in an mmorpg is an illusion, since every single combination needs to be first thought up and implemented by the developers.
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  • @Damokles I like this solution, this probably better than my idea.
  • GhoostyGhoosty Member
    edited December 2019
    I'd like to point out that just because you can google search for shortcuts doesn't mean you have to. If you want to do things the old fashioned way there is nothing stopping you from doing so.

    In a single player game I agree with you. But an MMORPG is a competitive genre. If you want to earn good money from your product, you have to be efficient. But if you do not use the available information, but the others do, you will be in disadvantage.
    If I make an alt character that I specifically want to use for raiding, and need to make my own potions for raiding, the last thing I want to do is fumble around for hours with ingredient combinations when I could just look up the answer in 5 seconds.

    If you do not want to deal with crafting, you can buy the potion from crafters. If a raider alt can be as good alchemist as they do not need to buy potion, in this case the whole crafting system is not a meaningful thing. Lot of game use it and lot of people like it, but if I understand well the goals, intrepid wants to make the crafting system meaningful.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    I'd like to point out that just because you can google search for shortcuts doesn't mean you have to. If you want to do things the old fashioned way there is nothing stopping you from doing so.

    In a single player game I agree with you. But an MMORPG is a competitive genre. If you want to earn good money from your product, you have to be efficient. But if you do not use the available information, but the others do, you will be in disadvantage.
    If I make an alt character that I specifically want to use for raiding, and need to make my own potions for raiding, the last thing I want to do is fumble around for hours with ingredient combinations when I could just look up the answer in 5 seconds.

    If you do not want to deal with crafting, you can buy the potion from crafters. If a raider alt can be as good alchemist as they do not need to buy potion, in this case the whole crafting system is not a meaningful thing. Lot of game use it and lot of people like it, but if I understand well the goals, intrepid wants to make the crafting system meaningful.

    Again you are looking at this from a singular point of view. Not everyone who plays an mmorpg wants to be competitive.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Damokles wrote: »
    The thing is that you cant just learn the reaction for the ingredients from the internet.
    I forgot to write it in my other post:
    You can only use ingredients in brewing, where the character already knows what they do. That way you cant just read it only, but rather have to also find a way in the game for your character to learn it.
    Right. In KOA:Reckoning, IIRC, we still had to go through the motions of experimenting...and I think at low levels or first time tries, there was still some chance to result in bad batches or explosions, even if we used the correct formulas.
    The character still had to practice a bit, regardless of player knowledge.
  • Again you are looking at this from a singular point of view. Not everyone who plays an mmorpg wants to be competitive.

    I did not say that everybody wants to be competitive. But I assume that the player who want to focus on the crafting that player wants to sell the product with profit. To be able to make profit you have to compete with other crafters. Of course you will always find somebody who just create stuffs for himself or just for fun. I know a real life example where a guy have a restaurant with high loss, but he is millionaire and he just run this restaurant for fun.

    Difficult crafting/simple crafting is similar question to the LFG system. Some people say that it kills the social aspect of the MMO. Some people say that if he just have 20 minute, he do not want to spend 10 minute till find a party he just want a teleport in, teleport out.
    We can say that you do not have to use the LFG system, you still can search for party in the chat and walk to the dungeon, but if everybody use the LFG system, you will find party much harder.
    This is same with the crafting. If spend money and time to experiment, but everybody else use the shortcut I will find customer much harder.

    So the developers have to decided where they want to focus. Want a simple craft system so anybody can craft what they need with a few click or they want a difficult craft system where the crafters must spend significant time to be good crafters so if you do not want to spend that time, you must buy stuffs from them. When I raised this system, I raised it in the difficult crafting point of view.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    Because this is a minigame in the game and I found it interesting.
    The problem with it as a mini game is that it only involves discovering recipes, not being an alchemist.

    In a single player game, discovering recipes may well be the focus of the alchemy portion of the game. In an MMO, it is the first few weeks (at most) of several years worth of playing.

    In your example, we are left with players that use 2 blue berries or a blue berry and a red grass in order to make the same potion. These plants essentially need to be the same in order for the system to be even remotely balanced, meaning the recipe for making this potion is inherently boring - even if the very brief task of finding said recipe wasn't.

    It should go without saying that an MMO needs more than this. This is all fine for a single player game (even if uninspired), but it is not suitable for an MMO.

    Even the Skyrim system that many here say would work well (myself included) needs a few tweaks to it to make it viable for an MMO.
  • @noaani I understand it, but I do not know the solution for this problem. I am backer of Crowfall. It has very difficult crafting system. Even in this system the main point is to find out the recipes. Once you have it, you just have to put the row materials to the slots and push the craft button and you generated the epic armour. (of course there are tons of materials with different effects and you create your own unique recipes etc.)
    (It was more than a year ago when I last played with it, maybe something changed since then.)
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    A crafting system essentially has 4 components.

    Leveling/skilling up
    Acquiring recipes
    Acquiring ingredients
    Combining those ingredients.

    In order for a crafting system to be truly good, each of these four things needs to be interesting.

    The issue with the system you outlined is that it made acquiring recipes slightly more interesting, but it did so in a way where acquiring ingredients was rendered boring, as all ingredients were reduced to essentially being the same thing with a different name.

    Requiring a period of exploration in order to get recipes doesn't make a crafting system hard. If that is where the difficulty of a system comes from, what does that say about that system when a player has the recipes they want?

    In order for a crafting system to be difficult, that difficulty needs to come from one of the two ongoing aspect of the four I listed above.

    If leveling or finding recipes are where your difficulty lies, then once they are done, the system is easy. On the other hand, if leveling and finding recipes are just there as a means to teach the basics of the profession, that leaves the two ongoing aspects to provide players with that difficulty in an ongoing fashion.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I would like to see a good diversity in the reagents used not just go pick some flowers. Make the ingredients divers gems for focus powdered metals, exotic materials, seasonal materials, environment dependant materials, some that can easily grown. Perhaps you may need to purchase some items from another artisan such as metals or gems rare timbers, the list goes on. They claim to want interdependence between artisans then having to trade for rare and exotic materials I feel is necessary for a vibrant economy.
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    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
  • GhoostyGhoosty Member
    edited December 2019
    noaani wrote: »
    If leveling or finding recipes are where your difficulty lies, then once they are done, the system is easy.

    Unfortunately, I did not see any good example where the combining ingredients part is difficult. I do not even have idea how can it be fun in long term, for short term I have. PvP is fun for long term, because the enemy is always act different way. PvE is fun, because we can set the difficulty different way and probably the most active players do not defeat the same bosses (I mean raid bosses.) more than 30 times. But the crafters have to craft hundreds or thousands of potions. So to maintain the fun long term, we have to find out some differences in the creation of different potions and of course we have to do it with other type of crafters.
    Good luck for the team who want to achieve this.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    If leveling or finding recipes are where your difficulty lies, then once they are done, the system is easy.

    Unfortunately, I did not see any good example where the combining ingredients part is difficult. I do not even have idea how can it be fun in long term, for short term I have. PvP is fun for long term, because the enemy is always act different way. PvE is fun, because we can set the difficulty different way and probably the most active players do not defeat the same bosses (I mean raid bosses.) more than 30 times. But the crafters have to craft hundreds or thousands of potions. So to maintain the fun long term, we have to find out some differences in the creation of different potions and of course we have to do it with other type of crafters.
    Good luck for the team who want to achieve this.
    There are no MMO's out there with very good crafting systems, all of them have something that they are lacking - and for almost all MMO's I've seen, that thing that is lacking is in the actual combining of ingredients. That isn't to say it is hard to do - just that developers so far have not bothered.

    The thing is, if you're going to create a game with a crafting system that has gaps in it, those gaps are probably better off being in the one-off aspects rather than the long term aspects.

    What this means is that if you know the combination of ingredients is going to be lacking, then you NEED to focus on making the acquisition of ingredients as enjoyable as you possibly can. This aspect of crafting needs to be your primary focus if you are not going to have an interesting system for combining ingredients.

    If you then have that system in place for gathering ingredients, the two remaining aspects of crafting need to flow from that - not the other way around as the suggestion in the OP of this thread had it set up.
  • @noaani I always distinguish the gathering from the crafting. Especially when we have acceptable trading system.
    So I have ideas how can we make fun 3 from the 4 aspect of crafting.

    "That isn't to say it is hard to do - just that developers so far have not bothered."

    I believe that if it was not hard, somebody already came out with a decent combining of ingredients system. In the Crowfall one of the main focus is to have very enjoyable crafting system. I would say that they achieved it in 3 aspects from the 4, but the combining of ingredients is complex only because you need lot of different part for the final product and these parts have unique effects/power level. So even they were not able to make this fun.

    I played with a single player game what was about to be blacksmith. It had fun combining of ingredients system, but only for short term because after 10-20 same sword it was not fun to do the same again. So I vote for simple system than a monotonous difficult system.
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