I do wonder what a game with 64 classes would look like
I don’t think it would be very fun because I can’t see how you could make 64 classes be unique or balanced. That’s practically impossible. Having 8 archetypes that are very unique, then tweaking them with 8 variations for each one seems plausible though.
I think it would end up looking more like AoC in the end; you’d have many kinds of mage for example with minor differences, many kinds of tank, etc. No way could they all be distinctive.
maybe in a single-player game it could work
Well... wow has pretty much 36 classes (i count each specialisation seperately, because they all play differently)
WoW is a good example. There is a lot of overlap between classes. One thing that they did right was that they tried to give unique resources to classes to make them feel different; Rogues have combo points to build and spend, Warriors build and spend rage, Death Knights get runes they use, and so on. So they made a great effort. But I feel like there are a lot of classes that resemble each other too closely. Druids for example; I can’t articulate very well what the big difference is between a Protection Warrior and bear form, or a Subtly Rogue and cat form. For all their efforts at uniqueness the more classes you have, the harder it is to make them substantially different.
And again, that’s only 36 specs between 12 classes. Imagine trying to make almost twice as many be unique. I really think it’s just not worth it, you get diminishing returns after awhile. Really, do you feel better served with 64 unique classes, wouldn’t just 24 classes feel like plenty if they were all legitimately very different and each offered a refreshing gameplay experience?
I don’t have a problem with 8 archetypes, each with 8 variations. I think what AoC is trying to do is great and is achievable. I just think trying to do 64 that are totally different and make them all work in the same game is insane.
Though like @Nagash said, in a single player game, maybe it’s possible. You then don’t need to worry about balancing them at least because you’re not competing against anyone. I’m still not sure it’s worth it but it’s at least not as far-fetched.
I think that Blizzard went in the wrong direction over the years. Specializations once were exactly that: they specialized you in a specific thing, while leaving you the base abilities of the main class. Even though you were a fire mage, you still had frost or arcane attacks for example. Now, they are all just too specialized in my opinion... You become a fire mage and suddenly forget how to cast frostbolts for example xD
Difference between...
Prot Warrior and Prot Druid: the warrior is best at negating damage in specific circumstances (burst), while prot druid is better at negating constant damage.
Sub Rogue and Cat: depends on pve or pvp (you would not really play a sub rogue in pve). A sub rogue is specialised in bursting their abilities and looking for those windkws of opportunity, while the cat is either relieing on constantdamage from bleeds or fast and repeated burst windows. (Sub rogue big burst with big cd, catsmaller bursts with smaller cd)
But i know what you mean, a fury warrior for example feels just like a frost dk for me, or a windwalker monk like a combat rogue.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's has been confirmed that if 8 players with the same archetype and each one a different subclass they can still be all the same by using augment from races , organisations, religion ect...
By choosing a subclass we will only have access to others augments than those available in the world
I don't think that has been confirmed. Jeffrey said that might be true for Guardian and Warden specifically.
Steven said, even with those two examples, their active abilities and augments might be the same, but their passives could be different. And we still don't know if their is anything else that factors in.
We still have to get an answer for, "What effects will secondary archetypes have on the performance of the primary archetype other than augments?"
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I just think trying to do 64 that are totally different and make them all work in the same game is insane.
Though like @Nagash said, in a single player game, maybe it’s possible. You then don’t need to worry about balancing them at least because you’re not competing against anyone. I’m still not sure it’s worth it but it’s at least not as far-fetched.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/236244400/List-of-All-Rolemaster-Professions-May-2014
RoleMaster had 70+.
Some of those are Crafters rather than Adventurers, though.
We would still end up having "hybrid classes" and what amounts to different flavors of Mage and different flavors of Fighter.
Balance would be a nightmare in any case. And, even if the perfect balance were possible from a dev perspective, there would still always be a significant portion of the playerbase complaining that other classes are too OP.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
And, even if the perfect balance were possible from a dev perspective, there would still always be a significant portion of the playerbase complaining that other classes are too OP.
Yes, well, gamers will always do that. I’m not even immune to that.
@Dygz in last live Q&A the question when out , and Steven said that if to player choose different subclass but had same stuff and same augment without the subclass one . They would be the same.
He just add that subclass will change some thing on the adventure standpoint that all.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2019
He did not say that. You have to listen more closely:
"It would depend on your skill choice in your master class. As you build out and assign your skill points to adopt either passives or active skills, if you were to follow the same path with regard to your skill tree, then yes they would be effectively the same. BUT, there are other ways in which your secondary class affects your character. It's not just reduced to your augment choices. There are also going to be other availablities from an adventuring class development standpoint that you will be able to select from based on your choice in your secondary class."
---Steven Sharif
Well is there some where it's said that those passif aren't augment you have to choose to take ?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2019
Subclasses could choose the exact same actives and passives in the primary class and not use the augments from their subclasses - they would be pretty much the same...
Initial part of the answer was due to how I worded the question.
But, then Steven added that there are other things that might be different - differences in subclass are not just about augments.
Which is the answer I was actually hoping to elicit. (more details on those differences would have been nice, though.)
Yeah yeah there may be other different but from what we know those different can be none character base . Like access to quest or what ever they thought of.
I hope there will be differences, but if not it would be a 9th way to play a archetype.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2019
True, but still...
"There are also going to be other availablities from an adventuring class development standpoint that you will be able to select from based on your choice in your secondary class."
--Steven Sharif
@KinthallisThornblade
I was simply talking of augments that are available through races, religions , organisations ect by opposition of those that you get from your subclass.
I didn't feel the necessity to specify because I was talking whit Dygz who know as much as me or even more about Aoc...
@KinthallisThornblade the whole point her was to know IF you choose to make to same character with one single difference that would be the subclass , will it really prevents you to make them same or will it just give different subclass name.
In the end will the subclasses add something that is none players choose...
From how I understood Steven answer , subclass will have influence on the way you interact with the world of Verra but in a pvp arena they can be the same.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@KinthallisThornblade
I didn't feel the necessity to specify because I was talking with Dygz who know as much as me or even more about Aoc...
Ah!
We barely have info for class augments - we know practically nothing about racial, religious and social augments. We are also supposed to be able to get augments from Nodes.
It's, of course, possible for players to choose exactly the same paths for active and passive abilities, not use subclass augments and also choose the exact same racial, religious and social org augments, but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Rogue or Mage as a secondary archetype if you aren't going to use the options the archetype provides. Why be a Necromancer if you're not planning to Summon undead? Why be a Shadowblade if you're going to do combat just like a Weapon Master?
Just because it's possible, doesn't mean people will choose to do that.
I saw nothing in Steven's statement that mentioned subclass influencing the way characters interact with the world. He specifically talks about how subclass affects adventuring class - which is primarily combat.
Below is another quote:
"Summoners will be able to summon things, as described in their name. Things that they can summon will be different animals, potentially spirits (depending on what secondary class they choose), potentially even corpses. You'll be able to change the appearance of your summons and identities by achieving in-game items that can change those appearances or even maybe cosmetics we'll be offering as well.
Some summoners may summon multiple things. Other summoners may only summon one powerful thing. Some Summoners might not be able to summon things anymore as much as they'll be able to summon effects and/or temporary energies. Depends on the secondary class you choose."
---Steven Sharif PAX Livestream Q&A, 4/8/2018
What we don't know for certain is whether these changes happen automatically when the subclass is chosen or is it a choice. Can Necromancers choose to summon living animals or can they only summon undead after they choose Necromancer? The Summoners who may only summon one powerful thing - does that restriction occur when the subclass is chosen or is that an option the Summoner can toggle off or on?
or even more about Aoc...
Ah!
We barely have info for class augments - we know practically nothing about racial, religious and social augments. We are also supposed to be able to get augments from Nodes.
We do know they exist and the whole idea of the question does subclass add anything as flavour to a character came from those others augments.
The one who first ask the question thought that those world augment would be significantly better than those from subclass to make player want them.
And than he ask in what the subclass will be defined if player may all play with those world augment.
We got the answer... and seem the adventuring class will be affected and seem I understood it in a wrong way...
It's, of course, possible for players to choose exactly the same paths for active and passive abilities, not use subclass augments and also choose the exact same racial, religious and social org augments, but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Rogue or Mage as a secondary archetype if you aren't going to use the options the archetype provides.
I agree it doesn't make sense to do so but it point out the credit of those subclass . Why choosing one if the subclass if the world augment are better or the opposite why having world augment if subclass are better ?
I saw nothing in Steven's statement that mentioned subclass influencing the way characters interact with the world. He specifically talks about how subclass affects adventuring class - which is primarily combat.
As I said be for it is the way I understood it be look like I was wrong ...
What we don't know for certain is whether these changes happen automatically when the subclass is chosen or is it a choice. Can Necromancers choose to summon living animals or can they only summon undead after they choose Necromancer? The Summoners who may only summon one powerful thing - does that restriction occur when the subclass is chosen or is that an option the Summoner can toggle off or on?
Primary skills (class abilities) are based on a player's archetype. Players can personalize their primary skills with augmentation from a secondary archetype (secondary class).
Each skill in the primary tree has a minimum of four augment choices from the secondary tree.
Changing the augmentations on your skills will require you to go to a NPC in a Village node or higher.
but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Rogue or Mage as a secondary archetype if you aren't going to use the options the archetype provides. Why be a Necromancer if you're not planning to Summon undead? Why be a Shadowblade if you're going to do combat just like a Weapon Master?
Just because it's possible, doesn't mean people will choose to do that.
The answer to the first question would presumably be because you have to pick something.
If it turns out that you don't actually have to pick something, I'm going to level a character that never picks a secondary class, just to kill other players.
I'm sure people at the level cap will be embarrassed from being killed by a character whose class is just listed as "Fighter".
but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Rogue or Mage as a secondary archetype if you aren't going to use the options the archetype provides. Why be a Necromancer if you're not planning to Summon undead? Why be a Shadowblade if you're going to do combat just like a Weapon Master?
Just because it's possible, doesn't mean people will choose to do that.
The answer to the first question would presumably be because you have to pick something.
If it turns out that you don't actually have to pick something, I'm going to level a character that never picks a secondary class, just to kill other players.
I'm sure people at the level cap will be embarrassed from being killed by a character whose class is just listed as "Fighter".
Imagine being killed by a pure bard in a 1v1... They would never live it down xD
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Rogue or Mage as a secondary archetype if you aren't going to use the options the archetype provides. Why be a Necromancer if you're not planning to Summon undead? Why be a Shadowblade if you're going to do combat just like a Weapon Master?
Just because it's possible, doesn't mean people will choose to do that.
The answer to the first question would presumably be because you have to pick something.
Likely such people would double-down - Assassin, Archwizard, Conjurer, Weaponmaster
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We do know they exist and the whole idea of the question does subclass add anything as flavour to a character came from those others augments.
The one who first ask the question thought that those world augment would be significantly better than those from subclass to make player want them.
And than he ask in what the subclass will be defined if player may all play with those world augment.
We got the answer... and seem the adventuring class will be affected and seem I understood it in a wrong way...
Hmmn. But...
We still need more info, like how many abilities can we have prepared and how many augments can be on one ability. I think, for now, we presume just one augment can be applied to an ability rather than multiples, but I don't know if that's been confirmed yet.
Maybe part of what you're asking is what if two players care more about being Nikua-Mages rather than a Shadowcaster or Acolyte, so - all of the augments they'd use on their Mage abilities are Nikua racial augments.
I think if they weren't planning to use at least one Rogue augment or one Cleric augment, they would probably double-down and be Nikua-Archwizards.
From what Steven says, it seems as though even if the Nikua-Shadowcaster and Nikua-Acolyte didn't use Rogue or Cleric augments, we would still be able to recognize some some side-effects of choosing those secondary classes.
But, we have still have to learn if some of those secondary class side effects happen automatically or if players have to actively choose those side-effects (and whether they can be toggled on or off).
I agree it doesn't make sense to do so but it point out the credit of those subclass . Why choosing one if the subclass if the world augment are better or the opposite why having world augment if subclass are better ?
I think it's not really a matter of which is better. Is it more important to the player to wield Mage abilities like a Nikua or more important to wield Mage abilities like a Shadowcaster or Acolyte.
It's more about identity and roleplaying, I think.
I would probably want to have a bit of both, so I'm sure, even if I wanted to focus on Shadow-themed augments for my Mage, I would also want to have at least one augment that shouts to the world that I'm Nikua. Or if I wanted to focus on Nikua-themed augments for my Mage, but chose Rogue as a secondary class, I would have at least one Rogue augment.
but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Rogue or Mage as a secondary archetype if you aren't going to use the options the archetype provides. Why be a Necromancer if you're not planning to Summon undead? Why be a Shadowblade if you're going to do combat just like a Weapon Master?
Just because it's possible, doesn't mean people will choose to do that.
The answer to the first question would presumably be because you have to pick something.
Likely such people would double-down - Assassin, Archwizard, Conjurer, Weaponmaster
Possible.
But if it is required to pick a secondary class - if someone has plans to use only non-secondary class augments - it is just as likely that this person will pick their required secondary class based purely on the class name they get from it.
Even though I plan to go mage/mage, I'd do almost anything I can to not be called an Archwizard.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What if you could be a Golden Archwizard?
Summon Fry Guy minions and fire explosions of hot grease at people, or summon a blizzard with your McFlurry spell.
We still need more info, like how many abilities can we have prepared and how many augments can be on one ability. I think, for now, we presume just one augment can be applied to an ability rather than multiples, but I don't know if that's been confirmed yet.
Well with some quick math you'll know that every ability can only be augment once. I what at more than 25 000 ability the first time I done it and I forgot some augments...
I would probably want to have a bit of both, so I'm sure
It's not about you or me , it's about possible or not but we will have to wait some more info , hopefully in next Q&A
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Rogue or Mage as a secondary archetype if you aren't going to use the options the archetype provides. Why be a Necromancer if you're not planning to Summon undead? Why be a Shadowblade if you're going to do combat just like a Weapon Master?
Just because it's possible, doesn't mean people will choose to do that.
The answer to the first question would presumably be because you have to pick something.
If it turns out that you don't actually have to pick something, I'm going to level a character that never picks a secondary class, just to kill other players.
I'm sure people at the level cap will be embarrassed from being killed by a character whose class is just listed as "Fighter".
Imagine being killed by a pure bard in a 1v1... They would never live it down xD
That's because the would sing about the fight for ever
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
It's has been confirmed that if 8 players with the same archetype and each one a different subclass they can still be all the same by using augment from races , organisations, religion ect...
By choosing a subclass we will only have access to others augments than those available in the world
I'd love to hear that soundbyte. I feel like that would be more, all would be viable, not all could be the exact same, otherwise there is no point of even having subclasses other than an undetermined amount of augments
Comments
I think that Blizzard went in the wrong direction over the years. Specializations once were exactly that: they specialized you in a specific thing, while leaving you the base abilities of the main class. Even though you were a fire mage, you still had frost or arcane attacks for example. Now, they are all just too specialized in my opinion... You become a fire mage and suddenly forget how to cast frostbolts for example xD
Difference between...
Prot Warrior and Prot Druid: the warrior is best at negating damage in specific circumstances (burst), while prot druid is better at negating constant damage.
Sub Rogue and Cat: depends on pve or pvp (you would not really play a sub rogue in pve). A sub rogue is specialised in bursting their abilities and looking for those windkws of opportunity, while the cat is either relieing on constantdamage from bleeds or fast and repeated burst windows. (Sub rogue big burst with big cd, catsmaller bursts with smaller cd)
But i know what you mean, a fury warrior for example feels just like a frost dk for me, or a windwalker monk like a combat rogue.
Steven said, even with those two examples, their active abilities and augments might be the same, but their passives could be different. And we still don't know if their is anything else that factors in.
We still have to get an answer for, "What effects will secondary archetypes have on the performance of the primary archetype other than augments?"
RoleMaster had 70+.
Some of those are Crafters rather than Adventurers, though.
We would still end up having "hybrid classes" and what amounts to different flavors of Mage and different flavors of Fighter.
Balance would be a nightmare in any case. And, even if the perfect balance were possible from a dev perspective, there would still always be a significant portion of the playerbase complaining that other classes are too OP.
He just add that subclass will change some thing on the adventure standpoint that all.
"It would depend on your skill choice in your master class. As you build out and assign your skill points to adopt either passives or active skills, if you were to follow the same path with regard to your skill tree, then yes they would be effectively the same.
BUT, there are other ways in which your secondary class affects your character. It's not just reduced to your augment choices. There are also going to be other availablities from an adventuring class development standpoint that you will be able to select from based on your choice in your secondary class."
---Steven Sharif
The subclass will most likely still give you a different passive effect.
Example:
Highsword: extra holy damage
Dreadnaught: extra hp or physical dmg reduction
Initial part of the answer was due to how I worded the question.
But, then Steven added that there are other things that might be different - differences in subclass are not just about augments.
Which is the answer I was actually hoping to elicit. (more details on those differences would have been nice, though.)
I hope there will be differences, but if not it would be a 9th way to play a archetype.
"There are also going to be other availablities from an adventuring class development standpoint that you will be able to select from based on your choice in your secondary class."
--Steven Sharif
I'd like to enjoy your knowledge and read what your experience make you think of Steven words.
Because I may not have the experience to see through those words.
I was simply talking of augments that are available through races, religions , organisations ect by opposition of those that you get from your subclass.
I didn't feel the necessity to specify because I was talking whit Dygz who know as much as me or even more about Aoc...
Sorry if it wasn't enough clear for you.
In the end will the subclasses add something that is none players choose...
From how I understood Steven answer , subclass will have influence on the way you interact with the world of Verra but in a pvp arena they can be the same.
We barely have info for class augments - we know practically nothing about racial, religious and social augments. We are also supposed to be able to get augments from Nodes.
It's, of course, possible for players to choose exactly the same paths for active and passive abilities, not use subclass augments and also choose the exact same racial, religious and social org augments, but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Rogue or Mage as a secondary archetype if you aren't going to use the options the archetype provides. Why be a Necromancer if you're not planning to Summon undead? Why be a Shadowblade if you're going to do combat just like a Weapon Master?
Just because it's possible, doesn't mean people will choose to do that.
I saw nothing in Steven's statement that mentioned subclass influencing the way characters interact with the world. He specifically talks about how subclass affects adventuring class - which is primarily combat.
Below is another quote:
"Summoners will be able to summon things, as described in their name. Things that they can summon will be different animals, potentially spirits (depending on what secondary class they choose), potentially even corpses. You'll be able to change the appearance of your summons and identities by achieving in-game items that can change those appearances or even maybe cosmetics we'll be offering as well.
Some summoners may summon multiple things. Other summoners may only summon one powerful thing. Some Summoners might not be able to summon things anymore as much as they'll be able to summon effects and/or temporary energies. Depends on the secondary class you choose."
---Steven Sharif PAX Livestream Q&A, 4/8/2018
What we don't know for certain is whether these changes happen automatically when the subclass is chosen or is it a choice. Can Necromancers choose to summon living animals or can they only summon undead after they choose Necromancer? The Summoners who may only summon one powerful thing - does that restriction occur when the subclass is chosen or is that an option the Summoner can toggle off or on?
Ah!
We barely have info for class augments - we know practically nothing about racial, religious and social augments. We are also supposed to be able to get augments from Nodes.
We do know they exist and the whole idea of the question does subclass add anything as flavour to a character came from those others augments.
The one who first ask the question thought that those world augment would be significantly better than those from subclass to make player want them.
And than he ask in what the subclass will be defined if player may all play with those world augment.
We got the answer... and seem the adventuring class will be affected and seem I understood it in a wrong way...
It's, of course, possible for players to choose exactly the same paths for active and passive abilities, not use subclass augments and also choose the exact same racial, religious and social org augments, but... it doesn't make a lot of sense to choose Rogue or Mage as a secondary archetype if you aren't going to use the options the archetype provides.
I agree it doesn't make sense to do so but it point out the credit of those subclass . Why choosing one if the subclass if the world augment are better or the opposite why having world augment if subclass are better ?
I saw nothing in Steven's statement that mentioned subclass influencing the way characters interact with the world. He specifically talks about how subclass affects adventuring class - which is primarily combat.
As I said be for it is the way I understood it be look like I was wrong ...
What we don't know for certain is whether these changes happen automatically when the subclass is chosen or is it a choice. Can Necromancers choose to summon living animals or can they only summon undead after they choose Necromancer? The Summoners who may only summon one powerful thing - does that restriction occur when the subclass is chosen or is that an option the Summoner can toggle off or on?
Primary skills (class abilities) are based on a player's archetype. Players can personalize their primary skills with augmentation from a secondary archetype (secondary class).
Each skill in the primary tree has a minimum of four augment choices from the secondary tree.
Changing the augmentations on your skills will require you to go to a NPC in a Village node or higher.
Don't see what add those this it clear ...
If it turns out that you don't actually have to pick something, I'm going to level a character that never picks a secondary class, just to kill other players.
I'm sure people at the level cap will be embarrassed from being killed by a character whose class is just listed as "Fighter".
Imagine being killed by a pure bard in a 1v1... They would never live it down xD
We still need more info, like how many abilities can we have prepared and how many augments can be on one ability. I think, for now, we presume just one augment can be applied to an ability rather than multiples, but I don't know if that's been confirmed yet.
Maybe part of what you're asking is what if two players care more about being Nikua-Mages rather than a Shadowcaster or Acolyte, so - all of the augments they'd use on their Mage abilities are Nikua racial augments.
I think if they weren't planning to use at least one Rogue augment or one Cleric augment, they would probably double-down and be Nikua-Archwizards.
From what Steven says, it seems as though even if the Nikua-Shadowcaster and Nikua-Acolyte didn't use Rogue or Cleric augments, we would still be able to recognize some some side-effects of choosing those secondary classes.
But, we have still have to learn if some of those secondary class side effects happen automatically or if players have to actively choose those side-effects (and whether they can be toggled on or off).
I think it's not really a matter of which is better. Is it more important to the player to wield Mage abilities like a Nikua or more important to wield Mage abilities like a Shadowcaster or Acolyte.
It's more about identity and roleplaying, I think.
I would probably want to have a bit of both, so I'm sure, even if I wanted to focus on Shadow-themed augments for my Mage, I would also want to have at least one augment that shouts to the world that I'm Nikua. Or if I wanted to focus on Nikua-themed augments for my Mage, but chose Rogue as a secondary class, I would have at least one Rogue augment.
Possible.
But if it is required to pick a secondary class - if someone has plans to use only non-secondary class augments - it is just as likely that this person will pick their required secondary class based purely on the class name they get from it.
Even though I plan to go mage/mage, I'd do almost anything I can to not be called an Archwizard.
Summon Fry Guy minions and fire explosions of hot grease at people, or summon a blizzard with your McFlurry spell.
Well with some quick math you'll know that every ability can only be augment once. I what at more than 25 000 ability the first time I done it and I forgot some augments...
I would probably want to have a bit of both, so I'm sure
It's not about you or me , it's about possible or not but we will have to wait some more info , hopefully in next Q&A
That's because the would sing about the fight for ever
I'd love to hear that soundbyte. I feel like that would be more, all would be viable, not all could be the exact same, otherwise there is no point of even having subclasses other than an undetermined amount of augments