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Quick Question on Classes (and Subclasses)

Greetings. I was a bit confused on the class and subclass(es?) chart from the wiki and was wondering if anyone can clarity things a bit: Is it a total of 64 classes (and subclasses), or is it a *base* of 64 classes? Sorry if the question might be a little redundant, I was just trying to piece some bits of missing information together. Thanks.
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Comments

  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Here is how I see it:
    There are 8 base classes, and those have 8 further subclasses for each base class.

    Each base class has its given skillset and "philosophy". A fighter is a melee dps, a rogue is slippery, a tank is indestructible. The subclasses then change the way how they fulfill that role. A fighter/rogue for example then relies on dodge and single target dmg, while a fighter/spellsword relies on magically supported movements and attacks.
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Think of it as 8 classes, each one having 8 “specialties” if it helps. I’m not sure what MMOs you’re familiar with but often you will start with a basic class, like “Warrior”, then later specialize to being a “Tank” who has a shield and resists damage but doesn’t deal much, or a “Berserker” who sacrifices defense for huge damage attacks with a giant sword, and so on.

    In this case like @Damokles said you have one of 8 main classes which is later modified by adding one of the 8 classes as a subclass. Note that your main class and subclass can be identical, so you’re really doubling down on your main role. A Ranger/Ranger will be really good at Rangering, while a Ranger/Cleric gets healing powers, a Ranger/Tank is tough, etc.

    They’ve given actual names to all of the different combinations of class and subclass to present 64 different classes, but really they are just 8 classes each with 8 different “flavors” to modify them.

    Real details are sparse. We don’t even know much about more than 4 of the 8 basic classes at this point, and very few details about how the subclasses will modify each main class. We mostly know the general idea behind the system and won’t know real details until there is more progress on the MMORPG itself.
     
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  • https://ashesofcreation.com/news/class-list

    Basically what the above said. 8 base classes and you can double down on the one you chose or choose a different class as your "second" class or subclass and that will change the way your original class choice performs
    Where there is light, there is shadow. I am the shadow without the light. The shadow of nothingness. The VoidShadow
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    We expect some name changes, but the basic idea will still be there.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    We expect some name changes, but the basic idea will still be there.

    when was that said? I thought all the names were already set?
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2019
    What I wrote is a player perspective; not a dev perspective.
    If I knew of a definitive dev quote, I would have written "There will be some name changes..."
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Maybe we can say, we expect name changes, but will be disappointed.
     
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Or, "It's possible there may be some name changes, but..."
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    My question for the livestream is:
    Are they 64 classes, or 8 base classes and each of them in turn have 8 subclasses.

    Too many people are confused in the forums about this...
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  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Damokles wrote: »
    My question for the livestream is:
    Are they 64 classes, or 8 base classes and each of them in turn have 8 subclasses.

    Too many people are confused in the forums about this...

    I always thought it was 8 main classes with each subclass changing some of the skills
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nagash wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    My question for the livestream is:
    Are they 64 classes, or 8 base classes and each of them in turn have 8 subclasses.

    Too many people are confused in the forums about this...

    I always thought it was 8 main classes with each subclass changing some of the skills

    Yes, but there are also some people that say that they are all 64 classes. Its mainly a terminology thing.
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  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Damokles wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    My question for the livestream is:
    Are they 64 classes, or 8 base classes and each of them in turn have 8 subclasses.

    Too many people are confused in the forums about this...

    I always thought it was 8 main classes with each subclass changing some of the skills

    Yes, but there are also some people that say that they are all 64 classes. Its mainly a terminology thing.

    I see. I sware we should have the wiki hard-linked to the forum
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Damokles wrote: »
    Yes, but there are also some people that say that they are all 64 classes. Its mainly a terminology thing.
    The official terminology is 8 Primary Archetypes and 64 Classes.
    Those are the official labels - but it's the same concept as 8 Base Classes and 64 Sub-classes.



  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Yeah, the fact is it's just terminology.

    You can look at it as being 8 classes each with 8 sub-classes, or 64 classes. While there is an official terminology, neither is a wrong way to look at it if you are comparing to existing games for how you want to define class.

    Its just a concept as Dygz said, and what ever works best for the individual is probably right.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Dygz @noaani
    1. I am proud of you guys, that you finally found something to agree on.
    2. Thats why I asked in my livestream question, what is the current right terminology.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Steven sometimes slips and says class instead of archetype. I don't recall hearing him say sub-class.
    But, what's really important is the concept; not the label.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    Steven sometimes slips and says class instead of archetype. I don't recall hearing him say sub-class.
    But, what's really important is the concept; not the label.

    Yup, agree 100%.
     
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  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I do wonder what a game with 64 classes would look like
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nagash wrote: »
    I do wonder what a game with 64 classes would look like

    Chaos, pure chaos.

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  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Damokles wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    I do wonder what a game with 64 classes would look like

    Chaos, pure chaos.

    giphy.gif

    it would be chaos but it would be fun
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    And then Sigmar comes along and ruins all the nice Chaos.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    And then Sigmar comes along and ruins all the nice Chaos.

    yeah.......
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • I've never really enjoyed dps'ing as a healer, I've always really enjoyed being a pure healer build but from what I've read in other posts i might struggle to solo quest & get invited into a group as people are looking for a hybrid dps/healer
    Hope this isnt the case :(
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    We don't have enough info to know which builds will get invited to groups and which won't - or whether certain classes will struggle to solo.
    You'll just have to try progressing through High Priest and attempting to focus as much on healing as you can.
    It's not really that people are looking for a hybrid dps/healer as the Clerics are designed to be a hybrid damage dealer/healer rather than just spend the entire battle focused on healing.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nagash wrote: »
    I do wonder what a game with 64 classes would look like
    I don’t think it would be very fun because I can’t see how you could make 64 classes be unique or balanced. That’s practically impossible. Having 8 archetypes that are very unique, then tweaking them with 8 variations for each one seems plausible though.

    I think it would end up looking more like AoC in the end; you’d have many kinds of mage for example with minor differences, many kinds of tank, etc. No way could they all be distinctive.
     
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  • It's has been confirmed that if 8 players with the same archetype and each one a different subclass they can still be all the same by using augment from races , organisations, religion ect...

    By choosing a subclass we will only have access to others augments than those available in the world
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Atama wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    I do wonder what a game with 64 classes would look like
    I don’t think it would be very fun because I can’t see how you could make 64 classes be unique or balanced. That’s practically impossible. Having 8 archetypes that are very unique, then tweaking them with 8 variations for each one seems plausible though.

    I think it would end up looking more like AoC in the end; you’d have many kinds of mage for example with minor differences, many kinds of tank, etc. No way could they all be distinctive.

    maybe in a single-player game it could work
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nagash wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    I do wonder what a game with 64 classes would look like
    I don’t think it would be very fun because I can’t see how you could make 64 classes be unique or balanced. That’s practically impossible. Having 8 archetypes that are very unique, then tweaking them with 8 variations for each one seems plausible though.

    I think it would end up looking more like AoC in the end; you’d have many kinds of mage for example with minor differences, many kinds of tank, etc. No way could they all be distinctive.

    maybe in a single-player game it could work

    Well... wow has pretty much 36 classes (i count each specialisation seperately, because they all play differently)
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Damokles wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    I do wonder what a game with 64 classes would look like
    I don’t think it would be very fun because I can’t see how you could make 64 classes be unique or balanced. That’s practically impossible. Having 8 archetypes that are very unique, then tweaking them with 8 variations for each one seems plausible though.

    I think it would end up looking more like AoC in the end; you’d have many kinds of mage for example with minor differences, many kinds of tank, etc. No way could they all be distinctive.

    maybe in a single-player game it could work

    Well... wow has pretty much 36 classes (i count each specialisation seperately, because they all play differently)
    WoW is a good example. There is a lot of overlap between classes. One thing that they did right was that they tried to give unique resources to classes to make them feel different; Rogues have combo points to build and spend, Warriors build and spend rage, Death Knights get runes they use, and so on. So they made a great effort. But I feel like there are a lot of classes that resemble each other too closely. Druids for example; I can’t articulate very well what the big difference is between a Protection Warrior and bear form, or a Subtly Rogue and cat form. For all their efforts at uniqueness the more classes you have, the harder it is to make them substantially different.

    And again, that’s only 36 specs between 12 classes. Imagine trying to make almost twice as many be unique. I really think it’s just not worth it, you get diminishing returns after awhile. Really, do you feel better served with 64 unique classes, wouldn’t just 24 classes feel like plenty if they were all legitimately very different and each offered a refreshing gameplay experience?

    I don’t have a problem with 8 archetypes, each with 8 variations. I think what AoC is trying to do is great and is achievable. I just think trying to do 64 that are totally different and make them all work in the same game is insane.

    Though like @Nagash said, in a single player game, maybe it’s possible. You then don’t need to worry about balancing them at least because you’re not competing against anyone. I’m still not sure it’s worth it but it’s at least not as far-fetched.
     
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