How Smart should the AI be?

The topic of how smart enemy mobs should be is always interesting to discuss. If the AI are too stupid the game becomes boring, but make them too smart and the game becomes too frustrating to bother with. Anyone who has played WoW knows how annoying it is to fight Murlocs, mostly because they are much smarter than most other enemies. When you attack them they call allies to help, when they are on low health they run away from you, and healing-capable Murlocs will heal their allies. These are traits you don't find in most other WoW mobs.

Along with this we need to consider what kinds of abilities to give the enemy mobs. Should they have CC or healing abilities? I believe if you are going to add such abilities into the game you should also give players ways to counter them. If the enemy mobs have CC you should be able to avoid it in some way. If the enemy mobs have a healing ability there should be a way to interrupt it.

So, how smart do you want the enemy AI to be? What traits do you want them to show while fighting?

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Magic Man

They said they want PvE to be challenging. This can be achieved through various methods:

The hardest way: have adaptive AI for all kinds of mobs 👀 test 50 types of mobs in the horde mode or A1 and they would be the base for all the mobs we will have in the MMORPG. + special dungeon/raid boss AIs

The hard way: Program/code 20 types of mobs and all other similar mobs of one type would act in the same way. + special dungeon/raid boss AI

The easy way: Only have adaptive AI for specific kinds of mobs such as those in dungeons and raids. Others will be done through programming (perhaps for 10 types of mobs)

The etarded way: Just increase the stats of mobs + no/very little use of AI and only for raid bosses

mcstackerson

Similar to wow, is it that weird to have difficulty and available abilities vary between mobs? Is it bad that there are some mobs that are frustrating to fight?

CC breaks and interrupts are normal for pvp, I don't think they should become dead abilities in pve.

Caeryl

AI should know to make distance if they’re ranged, they should have a threat priority system if taunt gets lost, some should try to flee, some should have the sense to call for backup, some should be hostile the moment they see you instead of requiring you be in close proximity, others shouldn’t do anything until you attack them first (especially influenced by some kind of reputation system, aka high corruption might have some affect on bandit npcs, a religious cult might let someone pass if they follow the same deity)

They shouldn’t all follow the same behavior just with different colors of attacks.

Wandering Mist

mcstackerson wrote: »

Similar to wow, is it that weird to have difficulty and available abilities vary between mobs? Is it bad that there are some mobs that are frustrating to fight?

CC breaks and interrupts are normal for pvp, I don't think they should become dead abilities in pve.

I think what makes the Murlocs in WoW so frustrating and jarring is that they are the only mobs that act the way they do. If all mobs acted the same way (or even just the majority of them) it wouldn't be so bad because players become more used to it. It's not even so much that they are harder to fight, they just require a different approach to deal with. It's like those annoying stealth levels that get put into fps games. You spend most of the game running and gunning and then are suddenly told to be sneaky and patient.

Wandering Mist

Caeryl wrote: »

AI should know to make distance if they’re ranged, they should have a threat priority system if taunt gets lost, some should try to flee, some should have the sense to call for backup, some should be hostile the moment they see you instead of requiring you be in close proximity, others shouldn’t do anything until you attack them first (especially influenced by some kind of reputation system, aka high corruption might have some affect on bandit npcs, a religious cult might let someone pass if they follow the same deity)

They shouldn’t all follow the same behavior just with different colors of attacks.

I was wondering when someone would bring up threat systems. In my opinion it's impossible to have truly smart AI whilst also having a tank-heal-dps trinity class system. This was actually brought up and discussed way back in 2005 at Blizzcon (video linked below if you are interested):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Falm0H7VEiQ

As said in the video, killing players is very easy. All the devs would have to do is program the boss to immediately target and kill the healers first. After all, a smart boss would totally do that. But then nobody would be able to kill the boss and the devs WANT us to kill the boss. Challenge us sure, but ultimately they want us to win.

There is only one game I can think of that had truly smart AI when it comes to targeting and that was the original GuildWars. In that game there was no threat, no taunts, no "tanking". Instead, mobs picked targets based on a list of criteria, usually targeting low health and low armoured targets first. This completed change the dynamics of the fights as frontline characters focused more on CC and bodyblocking enemies, whilst the casters had to be very careful about their positioning to stay safe. Of course, you can't have a system like this with a traditional holy trinity class structure.

Damokles

Smart enough to support each other, but not smart enough to steam roll the players. Intelligence/difficulty should rise with lvl

Gimlog

Personally I'd like to see a rogue like mob that is untauntable and that focus players and entities with less than 50% damages reduction, this way none tank archetype may needed.

And if we got rogues like let's have the 8 class.
I'm following a game where they go on it and look good for now.
But can't see for now the problem we could encounter this way .

Atama

The FPS game The Division has really smart mobs. The combat is based heavily on cover mechanics (including abilities that force people in and out of cover) and the mobs will sometimes try to flank you or seek higher ground, etc.

Nagash

The better the AI the more fun I have but thats just me

Damokles

Nagash wrote: »

The better the AI the more fun I have but thats just me

I want brain dead summons, give them WoW hunter pet intelligence and we are gucci.

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

The better the AI the more fun I have but thats just me

I want brain dead summons, give them WoW hunter pet intelligence and we are gucci.

look at the AI in total war now that is brain dead

George_Black

My 2cents:

I dont want mobs to stop chasing you and return to their post. It makes zones extremely easy to adventure in, and so the whole meaning is lost. Back in the 2000s, players were careful not to aggro more mobs than they could kill.

Today ppl run through mobs without fear of dying, to get from point A to B.

There has to be some challenge

Damokles

George Black wrote: »

My 2cents:

I dont want mobs to stop chasing you and return to their post. It makes zones extremely easy to adventure in, and so the whole meaning is lost. Back in the 2000s, players were careful not to aggro more mobs than they could kill.

Today ppl run through mobs without fear of dying, to get from point A to B.

There has to be some challenge

I think that they should find a middle ground between following and not following.
Make them stop following if you have not damaged them in any way, and let them chase if you HAVE damaged them.

Hartwell

I think enemies should recognize opportunities to perform certain actions, as long as it doesn't use too many resources. I haven't seen too many MMORPGs that had things like enemies knowing how to use AoE effectively, I've only seen MMORPGs with overpowered AoE spells on NPCs to give an excuse for them to always cast it. Some improvement the area of AI would be nice. That said, somethings did work.

What I liked about classic WoW was there seemed to be a set of rules that NPCs followed. Shield bearers shield bashed most of the time. Archers could net and run. Dagger wielders would backstab targets that had their backs exposed. Humanoid NPCs would attempt to run while near death, giving an excuse to snare them. Some animals wouldn't swim, even though they had the animations for doing so. These things don't seem that heavy to implement when it comes to resources.

Hartwell

Damokles wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

My 2cents:

I dont want mobs to stop chasing you and return to their post. It makes zones extremely easy to adventure in, and so the whole meaning is lost. Back in the 2000s, players were careful not to aggro more mobs than they could kill.

Today ppl run through mobs without fear of dying, to get from point A to B.

There has to be some challenge

I think that they should find a middle ground between following and not following.
Make them stop following if you have not damaged them in any way, and let them chase if you HAVE damaged them.

Another thing that would work would be to flag subzones as controlled by certain factions, then to have them run away if they were to enter a subzone controlled by an opposing faction if they are not themselves flagged as an invading force. Having hostile NPCs run into player towns and cities is really cheesy for an RPG.

Noaani

George Black wrote: »

My 2cents:

I dont want mobs to stop chasing you and return to their post. It makes zones extremely easy to adventure in, and so the whole meaning is lost. Back in the 2000s, players were careful not to aggro more mobs than they could kill.

Today ppl run through mobs without fear of dying, to get from point A to B.

There has to be some challenge

A simple snare on some mobs is all it takes to stop this kind of thing.

In terms of mob AI, I'd like to see some differentation between animal behavior and intelligent behavior, between mobs that are by themselves and those that are in groups, between mobs that are in their home and out of it and between leaders (named and boss mobs), and followers (base population).

The UI need not specifically be used to increase difficulty - that is a byproduct. The idea is to make the content as a whole more interesting and varied.

There are other levers that can be used if the UI proves too hard.

mcstackerson

Wandering Mist wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Similar to wow, is it that weird to have difficulty and available abilities vary between mobs? Is it bad that there are some mobs that are frustrating to fight?

CC breaks and interrupts are normal for pvp, I don't think they should become dead abilities in pve.

I think what makes the Murlocs in WoW so frustrating and jarring is that they are the only mobs that act the way they do. If all mobs acted the same way (or even just the majority of them) it wouldn't be so bad because players become more used to it. It's not even so much that they are harder to fight, they just require a different approach to deal with. It's like those annoying stealth levels that get put into fps games. You spend most of the game running and gunning and then are suddenly told to be sneaky and patient.

I'll have to go back and play some wow because i thought that behavior is what some other humanoid mobs exhibited but that is beside the point.

I disagree with the premise that all mobs should function the same, especially in a MMO. The behavior murlocs show in wow doesn't come across as weird to me. I don't find it out of place that little fish people run away when they are starting to get beat, try to get friends, and heal up their friends. If anything, that's great for several reasons. It makes the mobs seem more then mindless punching bags and teaches players good habits like pulling mobs a way from others and focusing down healers when present.

You have given examples of mobs and behaviors you don't like, maybe it would help me understand your point of view if you gave examples of things you do like. It seems like you want to limit mobs to little more then mindless zombies that only have the goal of getting into range and attacking you. Not saying we can't have simple mobs like that in the game but i don't think every mob should be that simple.

Wandering Mist

mcstackerson wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Similar to wow, is it that weird to have difficulty and available abilities vary between mobs? Is it bad that there are some mobs that are frustrating to fight?

CC breaks and interrupts are normal for pvp, I don't think they should become dead abilities in pve.

I think what makes the Murlocs in WoW so frustrating and jarring is that they are the only mobs that act the way they do. If all mobs acted the same way (or even just the majority of them) it wouldn't be so bad because players become more used to it. It's not even so much that they are harder to fight, they just require a different approach to deal with. It's like those annoying stealth levels that get put into fps games. You spend most of the game running and gunning and then are suddenly told to be sneaky and patient.

I'll have to go back and play some wow because i thought that behavior is what some other humanoid mobs exhibited but that is beside the point.

I disagree with the premise that all mobs should function the same, especially in a MMO. The behavior murlocs show in wow doesn't come across as weird to me. I don't find it out of place that little fish people run away when they are starting to get beat, try to get friends, and heal up their friends. If anything, that's great for several reasons. It makes the mobs seem more then mindless punching bags and teaches players good habits like pulling mobs a way from others and focusing down healers when present.

You have given examples of mobs and behaviors you don't like, maybe it would help me understand your point of view if you gave examples of things you do like. It seems like you want to limit mobs to little more then mindless zombies that only have the goal of getting into range and attacking you. Not saying we can't have simple mobs like that in the game but i don't think every mob should be that simple.

There were quite a few mobs that ran away on low health, but none that showed the level of teamwork and coordination that the Murlocs did. Mobs showing higher levels of intelligence and coordination are fine but it needs to be more common than what we see in WoW. In the original Guildwars, groups of mobs acted like this all the time, helping each other, defending and healing each other, coordinating their attacks, etc. This was fine because it was like this from the very beginning of the game so players got used to it and expected it. By contrast, there are relatively few packs of Murlocs in WoW so players aren't used to fighting them. It happens so rarely that the players never really get a chance to practice the different tactics.

What I say applies to all types of games, not just mmorpgs. If you suddenly change the rules of engagement and AI behaviour, players are going to freak out and become frustrated by it. I'm sure most people get very frustrated by that one stealth level that always appears in fps games. Why? Because for that one level you have to completely change your gameplay from running&gunning to being patient and sneaky.

I agree with you though that there should be different behaviour patterns for different types of mobs. I wouldn't expect forest creatures to show the same amount of teamwork and coordination as humanoid mobs do. I would actually love to see smarter AI in the creatures I'm fighting, forcing me to use my entire toolkit. After all, what's the point in giving me an interrupt or CC ability if I never need to use it? But if you are going to do that it needs to be done regularly, not every so often from a single mob type.

Atama

An enemy running away to get help when they have low HP was standard mob behavior back in the original EQ. We even used to call it “BAF” for “bring a friend”. That’s why roots and snares were essential to have in parties. It’s definitely not a new concept.

Behague

When I first played Age of Empires II, I turned the AI difficulty to 11 and got thoroughly pummeled. I hope its not that difficult unless I bring friends.

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