Intrepid are either heavily editing or completely rewriting large amounts of UE4, and I would think the AI would be one of the first ones they made the decision to do.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited January 2020
Typically programmers have to make AI dumb enough to be killable by players.
We really want the AI to behave more life-like. It's not so much about the AI being "smarter".
I wish we could get AI similar to what was described for StoryBricks: Emergent AI.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A thing that's always annoyed me about PvE encounters was the conveniently small and tight aggro ranges. You could vary those ranges based on the encounter you want to develop. Goblins being highly aggressive or defensive around their territory would attack you as soon as they see you. Humanoids and animals might prefer to avoid you or only attack you if you approach whatever operation they're running and looking to defend.
I just want to go back to this point from @wolfwood82
I think one of the reasons why devs make aggro ranges so small and AI behaviour so small is that they realise not everyone is going to be in a group all the time. If you only have groups of mobs that all attack together it will be impossible for solo players to fight them unless they are really overleveled. Now I know what some of you will say, that the whole point of playing an mmorpg is to play with other people as part of a group. I totally get that but sometimes you want to just go solo for a bit. Playing GW2 there are days where I just want to play by myself, to put on some relaxing music and go out farming alone. If all the world is covered in packs of mobs that I can't deal with solo I can't do that, and that would be a huge shame.
To me, there are 2 solutions to this while still keeping intelligent AI. The first would be to have areas which can be soloed due to enemy placement. Instead of having 5-6 mobs in close proximity you have 1-2 mobs instead. The second would be to provide AI companions that you could take along in place of other players. Guildwars had this and it worked pretty well where you could fill up your party with AI companions and still get stuff done (you couldn't solo anything in Guildwars outside of a couple of very specific builds/situations).
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited January 2020
That seems to be about simplicity rather than "intelligence".
StoryBricks design, specifically, and emergent AI, in general, call for a more complex range of behaviors based on NPC response to gender, race, class, faction, and actions players have taken in the world - rather than just relying on aggro range and kos.
Also, playing in a group is not the whole point of MMORPGs. The point of MMORPGs is to play in a world populated with masses of players. It's about playing alongside other players, not necessarily being grouped. Especially, not necessarily being grouped for combat.
Group combat is just one aspect of MMORPGs. A major aspect, sure. Especially since combat has been the simplest reaction to design for - as opposed to designing for Charisma/Diplomacy skills.
Ashes design adds Node progression as another avenue for masses of players to play alongside each other without being grouped for combat.
Dave Mark worked on emergent AI for Guild Wars 2 - in addition to EQNext.
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xlangatangxMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Good topic and been enjoying the discussions in here.
I like the idea of realistic. If content becomes difficult because of that, then even better IMO. I don't want to be able to farm every mob solo. If I see a goblin village and run in expecting to pull one at a time, slay it, then repeat until all the goblins are dead, then that wouldn't feel like a goblin village. It might LOOK like a goblin village, but really it's an AI potato farm. Shouldn't we be punished for not understanding our prey? You run into the goblin village, you get shot by arrows coming from various directions. Retreat and find a plan B.
That is just my opinion although I do understand that some people don't want the requirement of a party for certain content. I don't know the first thing about programming or game design. But I do believe 'realistic' and reasonable difficulty is a good thing. Why make it a goblin village if it isn't going to act like a goblin village? Make it something else entirely. Not everything on the surface of Verra needs to be farmable by a solo player.
AI intelligence should correspond to the mobs relative intelligence. Creatures that are capable of making judgement calls, i.e. they have some basic intelligence, should adjust their combat style based on whether they are stronger than their adversary or being over-powered. For example a goblin mob might attack from ambush, hoping for some quick easy kills, but if they are faced with uneven odds they would retreat and regroup - possibly to attack again with reinforcements.
However, creatures that live by instinct should react with the fight or flight tactic - for example a herd of deer would likely flee first, but a pack of wolves are more likely to attack.
AI should be smart enough to keep game interesting and enough to make the player pay attention and still have the game be fun.
Agreed. Unfortunately that is easier said than done.
Well this gets done in lots of other games so not exactly impossible. Raid bosses have better AI than most mobs. Really do not know why they cannot copy and paste AI and plug in abilities. Just in MMOs for the most part we get the dumbest possible AI literally could not get any dummer. Wish they would turn up the AI even if it is just a little bit.
AI should be smart enough to keep game interesting and enough to make the player pay attention and still have the game be fun.
Agreed. Unfortunately that is easier said than done.
Well this gets done in lots of other games so not exactly impossible. Raid bosses have better AI than most mobs. Really do not know why they cannot copy and paste AI and plug in abilities. Just in MMOs for the most part we get the dumbest possible AI literally could not get any dummer. Wish they would turn up the AI even if it is just a little bit.
Raid mobs don't have AI, they have scripts.
Very different things.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Do they? I don't know what raid bosses you've been fighting but the majority of the ones I've seen are in some ways stupider than the basic mobs. They have more mechanics and abilities, but they aren't smarter. As @noaani said, raid bosses usually follow scripts, which is the complete opposite of AI. They don't react (proactively or otherwise) to what the players are doing.
Most raiding teams rely on this predictability when it comes to raid bosses. Once a raid team has pulled a boss dozens of times they become so familiar with how the boss works that they can accurately depict how the fight will play out. In the case of Mythic raids in WoW, it gets to the point where the players know to the second what is going to happen and when. This is crucial because of how tight the margins are that you need to have your major cooldowns available at exactly the right moment in order to make the most use out of them. Any less than that and you won't kill the boss.
Is this a good thing? I know some people don't like it, but keep in mind that if you made the fights less predictable by making the bosses smarter, you would need to make the mechanics of the fight easier to deal with. If that were to happen it would change the entire mindset needed for the fights, from executing a set plan perfectly, to reacting appropriately to an ever-changing fight.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I like scripted boss fights. It lets a group strategize and rehearse. If we had adaptive fights where the boss adjusts to what you’re doing then everyone would have to improvise, and that’s not much better than running a PUG.
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited January 2020
I’m really hoping it’s a pretty damn smart AI. I would love to see intelligent creatures with AI that lets them decide whether it’ll be smarter to fight or flee. AI that will try to LoS you, or go to gather more nearby enemies.
I would really love animals that are actually territorial and if they see you will start moving towards you until they decide to attack you. Maybe not straight up aggro on to you from huge distances, but just something where they acknowledge your presence and let you know “if you get any closer I’m gonna mess your day up”.
Maybe even mobs in an area come across the corpse or another enemy you killed in the area and go on a bit more heightened alert. I feel like I’m starting to get into metal gear solid levels of enemies, but still it’s always bothered me a bit when I killed someone 5 feet away from an enemy and they just pretend like they couldn’t see me murdering their friend.
I know for dungeons you almost need a bit of a reprieve to eat/drink, and it would be a giant pain if aggroing one mob started a chain reaction that caused the whole dungeon to eventually be aggrod, but I would love to see them strike a balance between “I can murder you friend right next to you and you don’t even realize it” and “one enemy saw me and now the entire dungeon is coming after me.
*Also I’m sure our pets AI will be mostly based off of enemy AI, so I hope it’s pretty damn smart cause I’m tired of my pets being a derpy mess in most MMOs.
I like scripted boss fights. It lets a group strategize and rehearse. If we had adaptive fights where the boss adjusts to what you’re doing then everyone would have to improvise, and that’s not much better than running a PUG.
For sure.
Well scripted encounters are - so far - the most interesting and challenging PvE content game developers have managed to come up with in any genre of content.
At their best, they are developers handing players a puzzle to work out using the tools player characters have been given to use.
Well maybe the raid bosses seem so stupid is because you expect them to be smarter than the average bear but just as stupid as average bear. I get what you are saying though.
I don't necessarily want harder AI, but more varied AI is something desirable. Different enemy types have different movesets, prioritize different attacks, and require differing tactics to take down easier. Maybe giant spiders lay down aoe fields of slowing webs so they can run in, strike, and retreat to wear players down, but a fire spell could burn the webs away and allow melee players to close the gap. Standing still and just fighting back will still win you the day 9/10 times, but countering their unique abilities makes fighting them easier and more interactive/immersive.
Comments
Agreed. Unfortunately that is easier said than done.
Intrepid are either heavily editing or completely rewriting large amounts of UE4, and I would think the AI would be one of the first ones they made the decision to do.
We really want the AI to behave more life-like. It's not so much about the AI being "smarter".
I wish we could get AI similar to what was described for StoryBricks: Emergent AI.
I just want to go back to this point from @wolfwood82
I think one of the reasons why devs make aggro ranges so small and AI behaviour so small is that they realise not everyone is going to be in a group all the time. If you only have groups of mobs that all attack together it will be impossible for solo players to fight them unless they are really overleveled. Now I know what some of you will say, that the whole point of playing an mmorpg is to play with other people as part of a group. I totally get that but sometimes you want to just go solo for a bit. Playing GW2 there are days where I just want to play by myself, to put on some relaxing music and go out farming alone. If all the world is covered in packs of mobs that I can't deal with solo I can't do that, and that would be a huge shame.
To me, there are 2 solutions to this while still keeping intelligent AI. The first would be to have areas which can be soloed due to enemy placement. Instead of having 5-6 mobs in close proximity you have 1-2 mobs instead. The second would be to provide AI companions that you could take along in place of other players. Guildwars had this and it worked pretty well where you could fill up your party with AI companions and still get stuff done (you couldn't solo anything in Guildwars outside of a couple of very specific builds/situations).
StoryBricks design, specifically, and emergent AI, in general, call for a more complex range of behaviors based on NPC response to gender, race, class, faction, and actions players have taken in the world - rather than just relying on aggro range and kos.
Also, playing in a group is not the whole point of MMORPGs. The point of MMORPGs is to play in a world populated with masses of players. It's about playing alongside other players, not necessarily being grouped. Especially, not necessarily being grouped for combat.
Group combat is just one aspect of MMORPGs. A major aspect, sure. Especially since combat has been the simplest reaction to design for - as opposed to designing for Charisma/Diplomacy skills.
Ashes design adds Node progression as another avenue for masses of players to play alongside each other without being grouped for combat.
Dave Mark worked on emergent AI for Guild Wars 2 - in addition to EQNext.
I like the idea of realistic. If content becomes difficult because of that, then even better IMO. I don't want to be able to farm every mob solo. If I see a goblin village and run in expecting to pull one at a time, slay it, then repeat until all the goblins are dead, then that wouldn't feel like a goblin village. It might LOOK like a goblin village, but really it's an AI potato farm. Shouldn't we be punished for not understanding our prey? You run into the goblin village, you get shot by arrows coming from various directions. Retreat and find a plan B.
That is just my opinion although I do understand that some people don't want the requirement of a party for certain content. I don't know the first thing about programming or game design. But I do believe 'realistic' and reasonable difficulty is a good thing. Why make it a goblin village if it isn't going to act like a goblin village? Make it something else entirely. Not everything on the surface of Verra needs to be farmable by a solo player.
However, creatures that live by instinct should react with the fight or flight tactic - for example a herd of deer would likely flee first, but a pack of wolves are more likely to attack.
Well this gets done in lots of other games so not exactly impossible. Raid bosses have better AI than most mobs. Really do not know why they cannot copy and paste AI and plug in abilities. Just in MMOs for the most part we get the dumbest possible AI literally could not get any dummer. Wish they would turn up the AI even if it is just a little bit.
Very different things.
"Raid mobs have better AI than most mobs."
Do they? I don't know what raid bosses you've been fighting but the majority of the ones I've seen are in some ways stupider than the basic mobs. They have more mechanics and abilities, but they aren't smarter. As @noaani said, raid bosses usually follow scripts, which is the complete opposite of AI. They don't react (proactively or otherwise) to what the players are doing.
Most raiding teams rely on this predictability when it comes to raid bosses. Once a raid team has pulled a boss dozens of times they become so familiar with how the boss works that they can accurately depict how the fight will play out. In the case of Mythic raids in WoW, it gets to the point where the players know to the second what is going to happen and when. This is crucial because of how tight the margins are that you need to have your major cooldowns available at exactly the right moment in order to make the most use out of them. Any less than that and you won't kill the boss.
Is this a good thing? I know some people don't like it, but keep in mind that if you made the fights less predictable by making the bosses smarter, you would need to make the mechanics of the fight easier to deal with. If that were to happen it would change the entire mindset needed for the fights, from executing a set plan perfectly, to reacting appropriately to an ever-changing fight.
I would really love animals that are actually territorial and if they see you will start moving towards you until they decide to attack you. Maybe not straight up aggro on to you from huge distances, but just something where they acknowledge your presence and let you know “if you get any closer I’m gonna mess your day up”.
Maybe even mobs in an area come across the corpse or another enemy you killed in the area and go on a bit more heightened alert. I feel like I’m starting to get into metal gear solid levels of enemies, but still it’s always bothered me a bit when I killed someone 5 feet away from an enemy and they just pretend like they couldn’t see me murdering their friend.
I know for dungeons you almost need a bit of a reprieve to eat/drink, and it would be a giant pain if aggroing one mob started a chain reaction that caused the whole dungeon to eventually be aggrod, but I would love to see them strike a balance between “I can murder you friend right next to you and you don’t even realize it” and “one enemy saw me and now the entire dungeon is coming after me.
*Also I’m sure our pets AI will be mostly based off of enemy AI, so I hope it’s pretty damn smart cause I’m tired of my pets being a derpy mess in most MMOs.
For sure.
Well scripted encounters are - so far - the most interesting and challenging PvE content game developers have managed to come up with in any genre of content.
At their best, they are developers handing players a puzzle to work out using the tools player characters have been given to use.