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Leveling/PvP ideas for Tanks and Healers
Sarevok
Member, Alpha Two
We've all experienced the arduous task of leveling a tank or a healer for your guild, friends or maybe to experience something challenging. Some of us may have had help and some may have put in the time and patience to solo those levels. I hope there is going to be a way to help Tank/X and Cleric/X level effectively enough that players don't fall far behind compared to other DPS classes.
Since tanks generally don't have the damage output as a dps class, allow tanks to have less downtime in between pulls with better sustain options spent by whatever our resource is going to be (i. e. Rage). When it comes to PvP, tank damage output will be low but give us the tools to cause area denial, CC, damage mitigation cooldowns for a small area effect or nearby ally. Not to steal anything from WoW but their stances are a simple way to help Tanks pick the perfect stance for the situation. I want to be a menace on the field, not a shadow of a thought.
Healers will obviously do more healing than dps so I hope they'll have a nice dynamic between healing and dps'ing. Downtime is also usually something that holds a healer back doing subpar damage but easily staying alive through their healing. The templar in ESO had an ability to sap resources from dead mobs or players which would be a nice feature to reduce their downtime. In PvP, healers are typically saving their resource to keep their allies alive but never really having a chance to contribute or kill other players. Also, having to have a quickslot bar for all healing and buffing doesn't allow much room for offensive skills. I hope healers will receive the option of casting healing and buffing spells on allies while using the same spell and buffs on their enemies but it is the antithesis of the ability. Buffs are debuffs, direct healing causing damage and healing over time (HoT) are damage over time (DoT).
I think it is important that the primary class has these sustain and damage abilities instead of relying on the secondary class to provide them because then you'll pigeonhole players into certain Tank/X or Cleric/X combination.
What are your ideas?
Since tanks generally don't have the damage output as a dps class, allow tanks to have less downtime in between pulls with better sustain options spent by whatever our resource is going to be (i. e. Rage). When it comes to PvP, tank damage output will be low but give us the tools to cause area denial, CC, damage mitigation cooldowns for a small area effect or nearby ally. Not to steal anything from WoW but their stances are a simple way to help Tanks pick the perfect stance for the situation. I want to be a menace on the field, not a shadow of a thought.
Healers will obviously do more healing than dps so I hope they'll have a nice dynamic between healing and dps'ing. Downtime is also usually something that holds a healer back doing subpar damage but easily staying alive through their healing. The templar in ESO had an ability to sap resources from dead mobs or players which would be a nice feature to reduce their downtime. In PvP, healers are typically saving their resource to keep their allies alive but never really having a chance to contribute or kill other players. Also, having to have a quickslot bar for all healing and buffing doesn't allow much room for offensive skills. I hope healers will receive the option of casting healing and buffing spells on allies while using the same spell and buffs on their enemies but it is the antithesis of the ability. Buffs are debuffs, direct healing causing damage and healing over time (HoT) are damage over time (DoT).
I think it is important that the primary class has these sustain and damage abilities instead of relying on the secondary class to provide them because then you'll pigeonhole players into certain Tank/X or Cleric/X combination.
What are your ideas?
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Comments
Let me tell you one thing:
It is soooo easy to find another player to quest and level with as a healer or tank.
What we saw from the healer skill set, would show that they have a good amount of spells to hurt their enemies, especially if we include weaponskills. Dont forget that every class will be able to use every weapon ;D
I firmly believe that the primary class should give a good set of abilities, without making other classes useless.
A fighter for example should not be able to heal on his own, but gain that through his secondary class cleric as some kind of second wind effect.
They always said that they want people to play in groups after all.
DPS classes are a little different because they play to kill fast to reduce the damage they take. There is that give and take there. Tanks don't kill fast. We just take longer to die. Imagine doing so little damage, with little to no sustain, and you get to watch your character die to a thousand cuts.
This would be really bad game design if there wasn't a way for these players to then respect to the specific class they want - but since we know this will be possible, I fail to see where the issue is.
I mean, every class SHOULD be different. We will all complain if they are not.
One of the differences between various classes is in how well they can solo content. So if a player is going to solo, they should be playing a class that solos well and blame no one but themselves if they opt to not do that.
I mean, the other option is we could just make it so all classes can do everything. If this happened, they could probably drop the 64 classes down to 12, and maybe rename Verra to Azeroth while we're at it.
For PvP, I do think that tanks should get the most denial abilities. Redirecting damage, pulling enemies to them, snares, knockdowns. They should be something that ranged classes and support desire to have around them to assist them with kiting and peeling.
I'm sure every class can level solo, so using a secondary class to speed that up is really about your priority. It's not pigeon-holing when it's about priority rather than necessity.
Classes can't have it all, and that's absolutely the way it should be in (MMO)RPGs.
But with years going on, I just mastered my class and learnt the game properly. Yeah the tank classes have less damage than others, but it was fair since what the class excells is not dps, but tanking. It is normal to take more time, possibly you will get behind if you're racing with damage focused class.
1 year ago, a Aion P.serv opened to the same 1.9 patch, and I decided to give a try. With exactly the same conditions, it took me half the time to level up I needed back then. We just need to make a proper use of the class potential.
If we are in a group for sure it will be easier. My point is while you do less dps, the tank has other tools that it's better than others. I think that with that in mind we do just as well as those dps class. It is just that we need to do things differently and make full use of the tank classes strong points.
For example you can take on stronger monster since you tank a lot more, even if it's longer to kill, the reward will be up to the time spent.
In the case of AOC, I think IS will give us tools that would easily compensate for the potential lack of damages with augment, 2nd class etc...
In the end, I think that a tank can still do a decent amount of damage, it's just a matter of build.
I leveled two classes in AION back in the day, a chanter and a gladiator...
Gladiator was a pain, while chanter was a breeze. Gladiators did have the damage, but zero survivability, while the chanter could just overpower 4 mobs at the same time, while healing. (Lets also not forget, that Aion was a major grind after reaching lvl 24 back in the day)
Sometimes, its a class design problem and sometimes not
Templar is similar in aspect, but still a bit different.
In your context, I guess it was the very start of the game, so it's obvious you don't have the necessary knowledge to have a smooth leveling, looking back at mine I bet I struggled as much as you on your glad' xD
Going back to the thread's subject, my vision is that more than being hard for the Tank at least, the other classes are easier to play in PvE (just looking at the potential dps they have).
A simple exemple : if we could measure the ease at which you can level between 0/10, 0 being insane difficulty and 10 easy asf.
Tank should be at 5 or 6 and 8 or 9 for Ranger. Tank is not hard, we just need other things in mind when we play it to compensate for the "lack of dps". Maybe they'll add a bonus damages on monsters to balance classes a bit. There is a lot of ways to compensate if the class gets behind.
But in the end, I need to wait until I see how the Tank will be played to think about proper solution, if there is a problem of course xD
Their Clerics are pretty easy as we know and have seen them do damage. They are supposed to be the masters of life and death, so if a cleric wants more damage for leveling, they can spec more into death.
We haven't seen a lot but I'd imagine a similar situation for a tank, they pick more offense focused abilities and should be able to level up at a decent rate.
You are also not locked into any gear or weapons, so at least tanks might be able to use a decent two-hander for leveling.
Last I heard, we can change our secondaries so that is also an option for both. There might be some secondaries that are better for leveling than others. I don't really like this but it's an option we most likely will have.
I don't personally see anything wrong with this approach, but I am one of those people that looks at the class system in Ashes as being one of 8 classes each with 8 distinct trees - rather than as being as system with 64 classes.
To me, a tank is a tank, whether their secondary is tank or fighter. This is because if as long as things stay the way they are, that tank has access to having both tank and fighter secondary class, and so is both if need be.
Edit; there is also the possibility that non secondary class augments to abilities may assist slower soloing classes in their endeavors. It may well be that the best thing to do to level up a tank or healer faster could be in the religion you chose to go with, or in the options your guild has chosen, or maybe social organizations could help out a lot too.
I have had to ask friends or guildies in previous games as a tank or healer for help leveling because the grind was just too slow. Having a partner or groups do AoE grinding sessions is good but what about when you just want to go out there, gather and solo grind for money? What about questing or other forms of progression you might have/want to do alone? Mostly everyone here says, "wait for your secondary class skill augments." To me that doesn't sound like a good solution. Sure, dps will kill and grind faster than a tank or healer but I hope it's not at this crazy higher rate. I shouldn't have to rely on others to help me progress. It's not like I'll get to continuously dungeon grind to level. I really do hope they will look at leveling speeds for all classes and make them as fair as possible. I don't expect tanks and healers being on par with dps but not that far behind either.
I dont think that tanks or healers will ever have problems with solo leveling, and all the times where others and myself wrote about the secondary classes helping in that regard was about another aspect of leveling.
Tanks and healers will of course be able to solo, but they will be slower at killing things then other classes (which would be busted, if they were JUST as fast as a dps). Secondary dps classes will just decrease the time needed to kill adds.
I can imagine, that a tank will be able to pull a pack of mobs and grind them down slowly, while dps classes pull single mobs and steamroll them.
I mean... wouldnt it be unfair if tanks/healers could tank/heal AND DO AS MUCH DMG AS OTHER CLASSES?
I mean... rogues dont demand to be able to tank more then one enemy. Ragers dont demand to be able to heal others... all 4 directions have their own roll: tanks/fighters are most likely kinda tanky (in different ways), rogues/rangers are physical damage dealers, mages/summoners are magical dps, and clerics/bards are supporters.
I think it will be enough if a tank will be able to grind down mobs at slower speeds then the other classes, in the exchange that he wont have to worry too much about aggroing too many mobs.
Every class can choose any weapon. Every weapontype has its own weaponskills. I would thinkcthat a tank could use a shield in its off hand, but you can also equip spears one handed now too.
If you want to go a tanky mage or a magy tank the go these class combos:
Tank/Mage - Spellshield (sounds very much like a magic tank)
Mage/Tank - Spellstone (sounds very tanky)
They plan to have multiple viable tank builds so SnB is not a must -
We know secondary class choice is currently slated for level 30, but we don't currently know if that is the first access we have to augments.
There may well be some given to us earlier than that, as we know there will be multiple means other than secondary class to acquire them. If so, there is no reason to assume there won't be solo focused augments.
I mean, we may not get them before level 30, we just don't know either way at this stage.
With my main character class always being tank and my most used alts being tanks or healers, I assure you that I never feel there is a problem with leveling. Ever. In any game.
When I play dps classes, I can blast through single mobs like butter. If a second one joins the battle, risk of death increases. If I accidentally pull a third, ouch. I'm already running away if a fourth is pulled.
When playing tank or healer, I kill each one slower but there is about a 0.02% chance I'm going to die. Barely any risk of losing experience and time because I die and have to run back to where I was. In Ashes, there's also less risk of dropping resources. Win win win, right?
If you can kill 5-7 enemies in a minute, how much experience do you lose if you die and then take 3, 4, 5, or even 6+ minutes to run back to your death location? How many times can you die while leveling as a dps versus a tank or healer? Tank and healer classes are a buffer against that, providing a much smoother path in the leveling process.
Besides all that, there is a balance to consider.
Tanks and healers that are good at their job are priceless in groups at any and all levels (once you hit a point where taking and healing actually matter... Usually about lvl 10-20 or so). Dps are a dime a dozen, no matter how good they are.
You may take longer getting to the highest level, but you're going to have very little issues finding a group while you level and zero issues ever finding a group at max level.
If you're in it for the "quick level time" game: play a dps, hit Max level, rejoice, and then craft/gather/socialize your life away while you wait to find invites to do group content.
If you're in it for the long game: play a tank or healer, level slower, then have your choice of whatever you want to do, knowing that a group will always pick you up as soon as you say you want to do group content.
If you're in it just to have fun doing anything and everything with friends and meet new friends along the way: there's still not a problem because you can have fun playing any class and any role while running with friends all around the world.
I really don't see a problem anywhere. I see choices.
No matter the leveling speed, I will be a tank. I will have a healer. I will then play a bit with dps.
Choices matter. They should be weighted as such.
If the leveling speed was from 1 - being slow AF and 5 - being Fast; I would like to see tanks and healers at a 3.5, DPS/Tank hybrids at a 4 and pure glass cannon melee or spell DPS at a 5.
If you play as a tank, and know you won't have a group on hand, expect slower leveling.
It is a choice.
You can chose to accept slower leveling, you can chose to always look for groups, or you can chose to level a different class.
Here is how i would want to see it:
From 1 to 5 (Slow like a snail to fast like sonic)
Pure Tanks, Tank Supports (Tank/Tank, Tank/Cleric, Tank/Bard) - 2
Offtank Supports (Bard/Tank, Cleric/Tank) 2.5
Pure Supports, Tank DPS (Cleric/Cleric, Bard/Bard, Tank/DPS) 3
Support DPS, DPS Offtanks (Bard/DPS, Cleric/DPS, DPS/Tank) 3.5
DPS Support (DPS/Bard, DPS/Cleric)4
PURE DPS (DPS/DPS) 5
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Leveling
Tanks and healers may be better for one of this and solve your problem.
1) Swap specs if allowed. I did this in WoW, swapping between an Arms spec melee DPS Warrior with a huge axe to kill enemies quickly, and a Protection Warrior for group or end game stuff. In Lord of the Rings Online, my Guardian could swap pretty much the same way.
2) In games that don’t allow that sometimes I’d grab a huge group of enemies and AoE them to death. Maybe it took 5 times as long for each one to die, but when I’m hitting 5 simultaneously and laughing at them plinking off my armor it evens out.
3) And sometimes I take on an enemy way above my level. It takes forever to kill it but once I do it drops awesome loot and a ton of XP. This can be risky though, since sometimes even if it can’t hurt you very much, if you also can’t hurt it very much either, then it ends up nickel-and-diming you to death faster than you can kill it. But often a tank can beat things that would splatter an equivalent DPS class, it just takes more patience.
But yes, I have never hated leveling a tank. If you find them fun to play, usually you will find them fun to level, even solo.
Since we are talking specifically about leveling speed, not killing speed, the main factor in determining this is the ratio of experience earned via kills vs quests.
If quests offer up a good amount of the xp a character would be expected to earn, the question then turns to how the quests manifest in game. If the game has a lot of "kill 20 of these mob that are all close together quests" (as is likely in a game like Ashes, like it or not), then the fastest leveling character isn't going to be the pure DPS, as the pure DPS is probably only able to take one or two of these mobs on at a time. The tank/DPS hybrid though, even though they may kill individual mobs slower, could probably take on 5 or 6 at a time, and assuming they have attacks with a frontal arc attack, could probably kill 5 or 6 in about the same time as the pure DPS can kill 3 or 4.
On the other hand, if the quests involve getting to a specific location that is past many mobs, the class with stealth may well be at an advantage.
Then you have to look at the death penalties the game has. If xp is one of them, pure DPS classes are at an even bigger disadvantage as they absolutely will die more often than a tank/DPS or healer/DPS hybrid.
The only real time a pure DPS (as in, glass cannon) is at an advantage over all other classes while leveling is in games with no real death penalty, and where killing mobs with reckless abandon is as good a means of gaining xp as questing is - or where the bulk of quests require less than 8 kills or are fetch/deliver style quests.
Now, if we were talking about pure kill speed, then obviously DPS classes should be way out in front. However, we are talking leveling speed, and just killing isn't the whole story there.
Oh, i didnt mean leveling speed but rather killing speed xD
I didnt see that in your earlier post sry
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4872063
I'm not a huge fan of this, unless it is made absolutely clear which tank you need to be targeting in prder to do full damage.
My preference for taunts in PvP is that they force your target to target you, much as they do on PvE.