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Player Collision Thoughts

luky685luky685 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I just wanted to start off by saying I realize this is still in an extremely young state of the game. I'm worried however that player collision could become a massive abuse, stability and gameplay issue. I do like the concept because of it being not used generally in mmo's. This is however usually for good reason due to just how many players tend to be in a given area at a time. My main concern refers mostly to pvp however this could become a major issue in pve as well.

PvP
The primary issue IMO is terrain abuse. I've spent a large amount of time doing such exploits in testing other mmo's in the past. Terrain interaction with player models is an issue at best when you can't shove other players around let alone being able to physically move someone independently. Glitching through castle walls in a siege for example would be a massive problem and abused to no end. Collision detection in some games also can create massive amounts of lag if not done properly which could be exploited by mass rushing someone and having tons of collisions happen at one time putting a strain on servers.

PvE
Another massive concern is obviously cities. Imagine having to wait in line to quest givers or vendors due to just sheer volume of other players in the environment. This was addressed by Steven during the stream saying that they'd be implementing some sort of system to combat this, which I believe they'll no doubt have to do. Earlier in the stream they were blocking each other from quest givers and from walking through doors. Again this could be addressed in a similar way mounts are dealt with in World of Warcraft where it auto dismounts you and prioritizes npc interaction over player selection. Even imagine being body blocked into a corner by a trolling ally during a boss encounter because they find it "funny"?

I'm not against the idea entirely and would be open to here how it would be beneficial but I personally can't see how it would in what is anticipated to be a very large scale mmo. It just doesn't seem practical in a world where all player interaction is based on some sort of large scale confrontation. Be it massive outdoor raids/pvp or just general questing in a busy area and a group decides to make a massive wall for stopping others from farming herbs, ores or even general quest items.

TLDR
The system seems too easy to abuse in the short term and do untolds amount of havoc to the long term health of the game in the worst case scenarios.

What are your guys' thoughts?
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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    This absolutely is something thay could become a real issue, but it depends entierly on how Intrepid handle it.

    There are two lines of defense they usve to use here.

    The first is with in game mechanics. Something as outwardly simple as an ability to be able to slide past a character that you are green to would go a long way to deal with any abuse of collision. If the mechanic of this were to half your and your targets collision box (even if only in relation to each other), then you would be able to get past anyone that you can't attack without penalty who may be in your way - whether on purpose or accident.

    The ability to slightly push a friendly target may also be of use, but is perhaps somewhat more open to abuse.

    The second line of defense they have is policy.

    I've seen drastic and immediate changes in player behaviour based purely on the publishers stating that a specific undesired disrultive activity will start to be severely punished. This stance meant that players observing the activity were confident that reporting the player in question would have results, and the publisher in question actually did implement the punishment they claimed the few times the activity was reported.

    Like anything interesting in an MMO, collision will have it's share of bugs and exploits associated with it. This will most likely result in increased CS requests, and there absolutely will be players that hate having it in game.

    However, it is somewhat rare as a mechanic in MMO's and so adds a fairly interesting component, specifically to combat, that players may not have come across in an MMO before. For this reason alone, I personally think it is worth having in the game, though Intrepid do need to keep it in mind when developing alomst any system that involves player movement (which I'm sure they know).
  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    edited March 2020
    They mentioned the idea is that you can move players using inertia, so it's not like players standing still create impassable walls.

    I don't see it being something to worry about. What I do worry about is a group of Tanks spamming a rotation of walls at entrances, unless the cool down is just too long.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ravudha wrote: »
    They mentioned the idea is that you can move players using inertia, so it's not like players standing still create impassable walls.

    I don't see it being something to worry about. What I do worry about is a group of Tanks spamming a rotation of walls at entrances, unless the cool down is just too long.

    time to make a rugby team
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited March 2020
    This was actually something we brought up in yesterdays Ashes Pathfinders Podcast and Steven was watching it. He confirmed that there would be inertia and momentum physics in place to allow you to push players out of the way in crowded places.

    Having played Archeage he is very aware of potential abuse and said he will not allow blocking to be an issue in Ashes.



    Here is the twitch vod of the podcast. It was really cool to have both Steven and Margaret in the chat to respond to some of the things we talked about. Definitely worth checking out.
    volunteer_moderator.gif
  • This was actually something we brought up in yesterdays Ashes Pathfinders Podcast and Steven was watching it. He confirmed that there would be inertia and momentum physics in place to allow you to push players out of the way in crowded places.

    Having played Archeage he is very aware of potential abuse and said he will not allow blocking to be an issue in Ashes.



    Here is the twitch vod of the podcast. It was really cool to have both Steven and Margaret in the chat to respond to some of the things we talked about. Definitely worth checking out.

    sounds super great and all, but i think another way for in pve to resolve the problem is to allow ppl to move through eachother just in cities that arent contested/under attack.
    otherwise it seems solved to me so far depending on how it performs in practise when we get the chance^^
    Nagash wrote: »
    Ravudha wrote: »
    They mentioned the idea is that you can move players using inertia, so it's not like players standing still create impassable walls.

    I don't see it being something to worry about. What I do worry about is a group of Tanks spamming a rotation of walls at entrances, unless the cool down is just too long.

    time to make a rugby team

    YES :3
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Bdo has player collision and very populated cities.
    0 problems.
    Many mmorpgs had player collision. 0 problems.

    Combat without collision feels light without impact, just a screen of UI and a scope
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Personally, I would prefer a system where you are stopped by collision, but if you kept trying to go forward, it would let you go through after a second or 2.
    That would prevent the issues of being blocked from something by another.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Personally, I would prefer a system where you are stopped by collision, but if you kept trying to go forward, it would let you go through after a second or 2.
    That would prevent the issues of being blocked from something by another.


    I still like the idea of doing this

    lOJ873.gif
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Activate player collision outside safe areas. While inside, disable player collision and unmount players when entering buildings. If the town is under siege then player collision is enabled.
  • Ravudha wrote: »
    They mentioned the idea is that you can move players using inertia, so it's not like players standing still create impassable walls.

    I don't see it being something to worry about. What I do worry about is a group of Tanks spamming a rotation of walls at entrances, unless the cool down is just too long.

    Would actually love inertia. Crashing into the enemies' lines would be impactful. Also, love the idea of tanks rotating the summon wall skill. You either have to continue to try and push through it or find an alternate route.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Having glitched through walls in other non collision titles, i think that's more a result of errors in the placement of a structure in against the terrain mesh. But that is something they will have to be vigilant for. I'm not sure what you mean by the first part of your pvp section, since that's kind of the point of a collision system, to allow you to use terrain and movement to control enemy paths before abilities are even used. As for your pve points, they are definitely valid and warrant looking at. I don't believe they will be auto dismounting, but they are aware of what occurred at some points of Archage and other games that had similar systems, and already said their was a pushing effect, which we'll have to see in action. Though i liked the idea of someone who posted earlier, that i now cannot for the life of me find, of halving the collision box of friendlies.

    As for your question of what's the benefit of this system, here's a few. It opens up possibilities outside of stats and abilities, and actual tactics come into play. Suddenly being flanked is that much more devastating, and knowledge of the terrain, and use of choke points becomes a valid advantage. In node sieges, holding the roads leading to high value targets, say a tall accessible building that might let people with tier 2 mounts glide to a much wider chunk of the city, would become important. Out in the open field, positioning would be a little more definable, instead of the mishmash blob of games like wow, or even the rotating zerg clumps of GW2. On the non combat side of things, I find it much more immersive to have the crowded capital be actually a bit crowded. Instead of mounts and people hopping into each other for no apparent reason, or someone using a massive bunch of mounts to make it difficult to access an npc or outdoor shopkeeper because 50 people are inside of that one spot. And if you really hate the crowding, maybe you make your homebase one of the smaller cities, or towns, and visit those bigger places as needed.
  • SwaftworthSwaftworth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think that player-to-player collision has a place in PvP. It makes a lot of tactics more interesting (choke points, flanking, phalanx pushes).

    But I just don't see the point of it in PvE or in cities. The only reason to have it is immersion, but most of the "immersive" interactions will just be frustrating. Not to mention the extra dev time required to fix problems, and the server cost of collision checking (not really a big cost, but again, the benefits aren't that big either).
    mr1cq9w89im2.jpg

  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    leonerdo wrote: »
    The only reason to have it is immersion, but most of the "immersive" interactions will just be frustrating.

    But you don't think it will be immersive? And i feel like alot would simply be solved by easily implimented things, like multiple clerks, bankers etc. and also not making the 'Capitols' the only place you ever want to be. Trying to avoid situations like thunderbluff and silvermoon in wow.


  • SwaftworthSwaftworth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited March 2020
    Ventharien wrote: »
    leonerdo wrote: »
    The only reason to have it is immersion, but most of the "immersive" interactions will just be frustrating.

    But you don't think it will be immersive?

    I don't really. I think VR and AAA single-player games have a ton more immersion to offer, when it comes to physics at least. But for MMOs, I'm used to a lot more abstractions and convenience. If there's no gameplay reason behind it, I think it's just not worth it. There are so, sooo many other systems that the devs could be working on, since it's a giant MMO.

    Besides, I'm not playing an MMO to bump into people and fumble around trying to get past them. I don't like that shit in real life either. (Does anyone?) It doesn't matter what solution Intrepid has for the NPC blocking problem, player collisions would still be annoying, regardless of immersion.

    It might be nice to play around with the collisions with friends (tryna push them off a ledge and stuff). To be fair, any physical interaction system can be interesting for a while. But 99% of the time it's just just going to be unwanted and frustrating.

    And again, in-combat, player collision can be another point of challenge, or something to work around tactically. It's still a frustration, but it's an appropriate one that can drive gameplay. Out-of-combat, I don't see how it could be valuable, unless people are playing Red Rover or trolling their friends.

    Why am I still ranting about this?
    mr1cq9w89im2.jpg

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    leonerdo wrote: »
    I think that player-to-player collision has a place in PvP. It makes a lot of tactics more interesting (choke points, flanking, phalanx pushes).

    But I just don't see the point of it in PvE or in cities. The only reason to have it is immersion, but most of the "immersive" interactions will just be frustrating. Not to mention the extra dev time required to fix problems, and the server cost of collision checking (not really a big cost, but again, the benefits aren't that big either).

    I agree that the only point to it in cities is immersion, but it has the same potential use in PvE as it does in PvP. Players physically blocking mobs seems to be a tactic that Intrepid are keen to see players use.

    In regards to immersion though, while having collision itself isn't the biggest driver of immersion that I can think of, inconsistencies around in-world physics are one of the biggest drivers of a lack of immersion. Anyone developing a fantasy world of any type needs to first establish the physical boundaries of that world, and then stick to them. If physics acts a specific way, then it has to act that way everywhere - unless there is a damn good reason for it to not.

    Another thing to remember in terms of collision blocking NPC's - this is usually only an issue in terms of the initial rush when the game is first out. Players all jump in to the game and all follow the same questline, at roughly the same pace, meaning there is always a mass of players wanting to talk to the same NPC's at the same time.

    Obviously, Ashes won't have this particular facet of the issues with collision.

    Another thing to point out is that if you are able to physically move players around, it won't take long before people realize you shouldn't afk in public places - there is no telling where you may be when you get back to your computer.

    If people aren't afk in towns, then issues around doorways and NPC's will only ever be a thing if people actually try to grief others, and this is where Intrepid can step in with policy around the issue.

    If the game launches with both the ability to push stationary characters out of the way (or a similar mechanic), and a policy around players willfully blocking others from NPC's (including blocking access-ways to NPC's in non-combat areas), then I don't think collision will be much of an ongoing issue in the game.
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nagash wrote: »
    Personally, I would prefer a system where you are stopped by collision, but if you kept trying to go forward, it would let you go through after a second or 2.
    That would prevent the issues of being blocked from something by another.


    I still like the idea of doing this

    lOJ873.gif

    Okay, now we really have to start a Blood Bowl league!
  • Bdo has player collision and very populated cities.
    0 problems.
    Many mmorpgs had player collision. 0 problems.

    Combat without collision feels light without impact, just a screen of UI and a scope

    TERA did player collision as well and it worked really well. Glad to see it here - I think it adds a lot of good to a game.
  • SwaftworthSwaftworth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited March 2020
    Leiloni wrote: »
    TERA did player collision as well and it worked really well. Glad to see it here - I think it adds a lot of good to a game.

    It only has collision with enemies though.
    mr1cq9w89im2.jpg

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nagash wrote: »
    Personally, I would prefer a system where you are stopped by collision, but if you kept trying to go forward, it would let you go through after a second or 2.
    That would prevent the issues of being blocked from something by another.


    I still like the idea of doing this

    lOJ873.gif

    Okay, now we really have to start a Blood Bowl league!

    That would be great ^^
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • BellendBellend Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    player collision will have to be removed in large scale battles or we will have to be running the game off of server class 60 core cpu's and the game will have to support that.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited March 2020
    player collision will have to be removed in large scale battles or we will have to be running the game off of server class 60 core cpu's and the game will have to support that.

    "Gramps did you fight in the war between the Great Northern Alliance and the Southern War Boiz?"
    "Do you mean the Great CPU Wars of 2023 my boy? Yes. The whole guild participated. You could smell the burning cpus and melting grafics cards miles from the battlefields."
    KkvMmA5.png
  • BellendBellend Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Damokles wrote: »
    "Gramps did you fight in the war between the Great Northern Alliance and the Southern War Boiz?"

    oddly enough I did in eve online, and....

    "Do you mean the Great CPU Wars of 2023 my boy? Yes. The whole guild participated. You could smell the burning cpus and melting grafics cards miles from the battlefields."

    This pretty much says it all. and thats without collision
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    player collision will have to be removed in large scale battles or we will have to be running the game off of server class 60 core cpu's and the game will have to support that.

    It shouldn't require that much processor overhead, unless there is pathfinding needing to be done (Summoners may have an issue).
  • luky685luky685 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    noaani wrote: »
    player collision will have to be removed in large scale battles or we will have to be running the game off of server class 60 core cpu's and the game will have to support that.

    It shouldn't require that much processor overhead, unless there is pathfinding needing to be done (Summoners may have an issue).

    I think with the scale they're thinking of the battles I'd say minimum 40v40 if it's guilds going at it. That coupled with the engine itself and the amount of unimaginable effects going off that would strain any server to it's limits as well as lag out most peoples pc without factoring in having to process every player hitting 1-4 other players and registering that collision. We'll all just have to see how it plays out I guess.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nagash wrote: »
    Personally, I would prefer a system where you are stopped by collision, but if you kept trying to go forward, it would let you go through after a second or 2.
    That would prevent the issues of being blocked from something by another.


    I still like the idea of doing this

    lOJ873.gif

    Okay, now we really have to start a Blood Bowl league!

    Only if we can use dwarfs as the footballs!
    KkvMmA5.png
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Damokles wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Personally, I would prefer a system where you are stopped by collision, but if you kept trying to go forward, it would let you go through after a second or 2.
    That would prevent the issues of being blocked from something by another.


    I still like the idea of doing this

    lOJ873.gif

    Okay, now we really have to start a Blood Bowl league!

    Only if we can use dwarfs as the footballs!

    I think halflings or goblins would be better
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • PowurshotPowurshot Member, Intrepid Pack
    Yeah my gut reaction is... this is not a good idea. Especially after seeing how they got blocked in a room during the live stream. But, the more I think about the less sure I am about it. I think it would be wiser to test it in alpha 1 and then make my mind up.
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nagash wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Personally, I would prefer a system where you are stopped by collision, but if you kept trying to go forward, it would let you go through after a second or 2.
    That would prevent the issues of being blocked from something by another.


    I still like the idea of doing this

    lOJ873.gif

    Okay, now we really have to start a Blood Bowl league!

    Only if we can use dwarfs as the footballs!

    I think halflings or goblins would be better

    Wasn't the traditional ball a trussed up Snotling before they came up with the spiked one?
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nagash wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Personally, I would prefer a system where you are stopped by collision, but if you kept trying to go forward, it would let you go through after a second or 2.
    That would prevent the issues of being blocked from something by another.


    I still like the idea of doing this

    lOJ873.gif

    Okay, now we really have to start a Blood Bowl league!

    Only if we can use dwarfs as the footballs!

    I think halflings or goblins would be better

    Wasn't the traditional ball a trussed up Snotling before they came up with the spiked one?

    we can't use Snotling now because of the C-Virus
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DraskDrask Member
    Hopefully, they are pushing the physics to the GPU's. Too many games push this stuff onto the CPU and you run into these problems.

    Collision could be a really awesome part of the game when it comes to tanks, especially. Shield walls and phalanx formations could be game changers in PvP. I'm hoping that they do implement some anti-griefing measures though. I like the idea of disabling some of it when you are not in combat.
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