Controller Compatibility

I searched around for topics related to this, and I haven't found any open discussions about it, so I apologize if I'm harping on something already well discussed.

I was actually just watching the "Alpha One Early Preview" from a few days ago, and something was said to the effect of wanting to hear feedback early so features can be implemented without rush near the end of the project. Well that comment encouraged me to come here and genuinely request consideration for controller compatibility.

A lot of folks who play MMOs on PC often don't understand the want to play with a controller, and often times it gets ignored because those people don't understand a controller's place in that environment. However, there are so many games these days with keyboard/mouse & controller options built in that it's exclusive to not have them both available. Giving your players options is just never a bad thing. Having AoC be playable with controller would open you up to including that many more players who prefer controller play, and there are plenty of games to look to for mapping and customization inspiration. FFXIV, by the way, is an amazing example.

Anywho, is there already a discussion about this I should be joining? is there anyone else here who would like to see AoC compatible to play with controller? Any thoughts or concerns in adding this as a feature to the game? What are some games you've seen implement and integrate controllers well, and why do you like how they went about it?

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Jahlon

Its not their plan at first,

However, its a UE4 game so you can map it to a controller pretty easily. For a while I had APOC mapped to a controller.

Iridisus

Jahlon wrote: »

Its not their plan at first,

However, its a UE4 game so you can map it to a controller pretty easily. For a while I had APOC mapped to a controller.

I would really like to see it internally a part of the game, though. I think it makes a huge difference including it from the get go as a part of the function of the game compared to leaving it up to your players to make it work. Plus adding it into the system of the game shows your players you want to include everyone you can and put forth that bit of effort for everyone's enjoyability.

Wandering Mist

I always found it strange wanting to play an mmorpg with a controller. Surely there aren't enough buttons on a controller for all the skills in an mmorpg. Plus how are you supposed to type in the chat?

Ravudha

I don't mind it as an option as long as it doesn't mean changing or simplifying the original systems in any way and players can still chat/communicate effectively.

Iridisus

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I always found it strange wanting to play an mmorpg with a controller. Surely there aren't enough buttons on a controller for all the skills in an mmorpg. Plus how are you supposed to type in the chat?

The best layouts I've seen are those where the keyboard is still active at the same time as the controller. So when you want to jump to chat, you just start typing. Not a big deal. Also, some people don't even participate in in-game chat all that much, controller or no. There are also little keyboard attachments for controllers that people use for chats all the time. I'm ridiculously slow with those xD

As for not having enough buttons, it's all about the mapping. I brought up FFXIV as an example before because with their layout, you can actually fit a couple quick slots more that you can on a keyboard. It's a neat setup. You can change which hotbar you're pulling from by different combinations of buttons, and when you're used to playing with controllers, it becomes very smooth, easy, and fast. They also made it wonderfully customizable, so two people playing with controllers can have rather different setups based on personal preferences. I mean, they're just one example of a great use of space.

When you have so few buttons, as you pointed out, you definitely need to get creative. However, it's 100% viable if done well and given the consideration it deserves, and there are a million ways to go about it.

Ferryman

@Iridisus How many buttons you can link to your controller?

Damokles

ferryman wrote: »

@Iridisus How many buttons you can link to your controller?

12-16 some even more then that

Ferryman

Asking because at the latest stream there was 13 skill slots in the UI. Typically in MMORPGs on top of that people needs at least few more buttons for shortcuts like map, mount, targeting, bag etc.

Ferryman

Damokles wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

@Iridisus How many buttons you can link to your controller?

12-16 some even more then that

Okay, so 12 is definitely not enough and with 16 you could barely survive.. Depends a lot what will be the final number of buttons in use.

Iridisus

@ferryman FFXIV has it (not including buttons for interaction, jumping, menus, and so on) just for using hotbars alone, you can access 8 hotbars with 16 slots each so...128? quick slots assignable to abilities, items and such all only 2 buttons away. Point is, you can only map as many buttons as there are on the controller, but what matters is what those buttons are mapped to. And they took it a little further with the cross hotbars system which adds single vs double tapping some buttons, and personalizing the time frame between taps

Noaani

I'm not specifically against the idea of controller support in Ashes myself - though my initial thought is that I don't think it would be a good idea for Intrepid to support it in game.

If it is supported in game, players using a controller would have a valid reason to complain to Intrepid if there are things they can't do with a controller that can be done with mouse and keyboard. I mean, if Intrepid support play with a controller, they need to fully support play with a controller.

Now, I don't see how a player with a controller would be able to run in one direction, while still using an AoE ability that needs to be aimed in a different direction.

With a mouse and keyboard, this kind of thing is easy. I may be missing something here, but I've yet to see a controller system where you can (easily) target anything other than what is directly in front of you, or what you have as your target (in terms of tab target).

Maybe I'm missing something here, as I don't play games with a controller, but if this is not possible to do with a controller, then Intrepid shouldn't implement controller compatibility in to the game, leaving those wanting to play it with a controller to do so in UE4, leaving them kind of unable to complain about anything they can't do with their setup.

On the other hand, if this does turn out to be fairly easy to implement with fairly fine control, then I don't initially see any reason to not support controller compatibility.

That said, I do pity any player trying to play the tab target aspects of the game to their fullest with a controller - I usually have 18 shortcuts dedicated to just targeting in games that allow for it.

Ferryman

Iridisus wrote: »

@ferryman FFXIV has it (not including buttons for interaction, jumping, menus, and so on) just for using hotbars alone, you can access 8 hotbars with 16 slots each so...128? quick slots assignable to abilities, items and such all only 2 buttons away. Point is, you can only map as many buttons as there are on the controller, but what matters is what those buttons are mapped to. And they took it a little further with the cross hotbars system which adds single vs double tapping some buttons, and personalizing the time frame between taps

Well I was more interested how much buttons you have in your controller?

Ferryman

I am not generally against the idea of controller support unless it has negative effects to basic mouse/keybord system, mainly referring to unwanted compromises.

Squere Enix has a good amount of experience from controllers because of long history with consol games, so for them adding option to play with controller is also very natural solution.

Iridisus

@ferryman @noaani

Agreed. There should definitely never ever be compromises made to the game to accommodate controller play. Ever. And they don't need to be made. The success of incorporating controllers into an MMO without changing vision, function, or anything else, and still making it capable of everything the keyboard can do has been done. It's been done. This isn't something new, and I won't deny it's a bit of a puzzle to figure out. And that's why I'm suggesting to think about it and consider it now while it's still plenty early in development. Look at games that have had success with it. Don't decide to add it way later down the road and do a terrible and rushed job, because, yes...that will undoubtedly lead to many complaints.

I completely understand the targeting concern, for sure. Again, FFXIV being a great example here, tab targeting worked out surprisingly well for them. They hooked it to the Dpad. Made up+down be party/teammates and left+right are enemies. Really what makes it work so well is the customization options behind it. You may only have the Dpad to cycle through targets, but you can make it behave anyway you want depending on your situation. You can have it set to only cycle through different types of npcs depending if you're in or out of battle or have your weapon sheathed or drawn. You can make your party list organize a certain way all the time, so you know one tap down is always going to set you on your tank. That kind of thing. I was blown away at what they did with controllers in that game. Still am.

Noaani

Iridisus wrote: »

@ferryman @noaani

Agreed. There should definitely never ever be compromises made to the game to accommodate controller play. Ever. And they don't need to be made. The success of incorporating controllers into an MMO without changing vision, function, or anything else, and still making it capable of everything the keyboard can do has been done. It's been done. This isn't something new, and I won't deny it's a bit of a puzzle to figure out. And that's why I'm suggesting to think about it and consider it now while it's still plenty early in development. Look at games that have had success with it. Don't decide to add it way later down the road and do a terrible and rushed job, because, yes...that will undoubtedly lead to many complaints.

I completely understand the targeting concern, for sure. Again, FFXIV being a great example here, tab targeting worked out surprisingly well for them. They hooked it to the Dpad. Made up+down be party/teammates and left+right are enemies. Really what makes it work so well is the customization options behind it. You may only have the Dpad to cycle through targets, but you can make it behave anyway you want depending on your situation. You can have it set to only cycle through different types of npcs depending if you're in or out of battle or have your weapon sheathed or drawn. You can make your party list organize a certain way all the time, so you know one tap down is always going to set you on your tank. That kind of thing. I was blown away at what they did with controllers in that game. Still am.

With a D-pad and 8 modifier buttons, a controller could have almost the same flexibility to target as a mouse and keyboard. It would just be missing the ability to click on a player or NPC directly.

Targeting enemies and/or allies isn't actually my biggest concern with controller compatibility though - it is targeting abilities that don't use tab targeting.

With a mouse, this is easy. You simply click where you want the ability to be centered. With a controller though, I don't see how this could happen, as there is no way to quickly move a cursor or equivalent quickly, while still having fine control.

Ferryman

I am also interested to know how AoE abilities (which needs to be placed somewhere on the ground) works with controller especially when you are moving at the same time? With secondary stick? Some other way? Impossible?

Noaani

ferryman wrote: »

I am also interested to know how AoE abilities (which needs to be placed somewhere on the ground) works with controller especially when you are moving at the same time? With secondary stick? Some other way? Impossible?

I thought about a secondary stick to target them with, but the level of both speed and accuracy that would give would be significantly sub-standard.

cyanideinsanity

ferryman wrote: »

I am also interested to know how AoE abilities (which needs to be placed somewhere on the ground) works with controller especially when you are moving at the same time? With secondary stick? Some other way? Impossible?

One way you can do it is to base it on camera angle. Its been a while but I believe smite does this, so to drop an aimed aoe on you you aim down, but to put it farther you aim more towards the horizon.

Noaani

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

I am also interested to know how AoE abilities (which needs to be placed somewhere on the ground) works with controller especially when you are moving at the same time? With secondary stick? Some other way? Impossible?

One way you can do it is to base it on camera angle. Its been a while but I believe smite does this, so to drop an aimed aoe on you you aim down, but to put it farther you aim more towards the horizon.

That would be too restrictive.

You would be dedicating where your character is and which way they are facing, as well as the angle the camera is on, all just to aiming an ability - whereas with a mouse and keyboard setup, none of those things need to be dedicated, you just move your cursor to where you want the ability centered.

There are several ways to do target an AoE with a conteoller, but there are no ways that I can think of or have ever seen to do it as well (fast, accurate, independent) as can be done with a mouse and keyboard setup.

If it can't be done to the same level, on my opinion it shouldn't be done.

cyanideinsanity

noaani wrote: »

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

I am also interested to know how AoE abilities (which needs to be placed somewhere on the ground) works with controller especially when you are moving at the same time? With secondary stick? Some other way? Impossible?

One way you can do it is to base it on camera angle. Its been a while but I believe smite does this, so to drop an aimed aoe on you you aim down, but to put it farther you aim more towards the horizon.

That would be too restrictive.

You would be dedicating where your character is and which way they are facing, as well as the angle the camera is on, all just to aiming an ability - whereas with a mouse and keyboard setup, none of those things need to be dedicated, you just move your cursor to where you want the ability centered.

There are several ways to do target an AoE with a conteoller, but there are no ways that I can think of or have ever seen to do it as well (fast, accurate, independent) as can be done with a mouse and keyboard setup.

If it can't be done to the same level, on my opinion it shouldn't be done.

You wouldn't be using a controller from what I gather, so why would it matter that others are playing in a more restricted way? Sorry if its coming off as aggressive, but this sounds to me like the same argument I've seen people make for not wanting splitscreen in the pc version of halo because they wouldn't like splitscreen on a small monitor and ignoring the fact some people play on large format displays.

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