Controller Compatibility

I searched around for topics related to this, and I haven't found any open discussions about it, so I apologize if I'm harping on something already well discussed.

I was actually just watching the "Alpha One Early Preview" from a few days ago, and something was said to the effect of wanting to hear feedback early so features can be implemented without rush near the end of the project. Well that comment encouraged me to come here and genuinely request consideration for controller compatibility.

A lot of folks who play MMOs on PC often don't understand the want to play with a controller, and often times it gets ignored because those people don't understand a controller's place in that environment. However, there are so many games these days with keyboard/mouse & controller options built in that it's exclusive to not have them both available. Giving your players options is just never a bad thing. Having AoC be playable with controller would open you up to including that many more players who prefer controller play, and there are plenty of games to look to for mapping and customization inspiration. FFXIV, by the way, is an amazing example.

Anywho, is there already a discussion about this I should be joining? is there anyone else here who would like to see AoC compatible to play with controller? Any thoughts or concerns in adding this as a feature to the game? What are some games you've seen implement and integrate controllers well, and why do you like how they went about it?

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Noaani

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

You wouldn't be using a controller from what I gather, so why would it matter that others are playing in a more restricted way? Sorry if its coming off as aggressive, but this sounds to me like the same argument I've seen people make for not wanting splitscreen in the pc version of halo because they wouldn't like splitscreen on a small monitor and ignoring the fact some people play on large format displays.

noaani wrote: »

I'm not specifically against the idea of controller support in Ashes myself - though my initial thought is that I don't think it would be a good idea for Intrepid to support it in game.

If it is supported in game, players using a controller would have a valid reason to complain to Intrepid if there are things they can't do with a controller that can be done with mouse and keyboard. I mean, if Intrepid support play with a controller, they need to fully support play with a controller.

noaani wrote: »

if this is not possible to do with a controller, then Intrepid shouldn't implement controller compatibility in to the game, leaving those wanting to play it with a controller to do so in UE4, leaving them kind of unable to complain about anything they can't do with their setup.

I am not saying the game shouldn't allow controllers. In fact, even if the developers tried to do this, it would fail.

What I am saying is that unless they can make everything work in game with a controller as well as it does with a mouse and keyboard, they are better off not officially supporting controllers with the game, but leaving players to make use of UE4's inbuilt ability to handle controllers if they set it up themselves.

Ferryman

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

I am also interested to know how AoE abilities (which needs to be placed somewhere on the ground) works with controller especially when you are moving at the same time? With secondary stick? Some other way? Impossible?

One way you can do it is to base it on camera angle. Its been a while but I believe smite does this, so to drop an aimed aoe on you you aim down, but to put it farther you aim more towards the horizon.

That would be too restrictive.

You would be dedicating where your character is and which way they are facing, as well as the angle the camera is on, all just to aiming an ability - whereas with a mouse and keyboard setup, none of those things need to be dedicated, you just move your cursor to where you want the ability centered.

There are several ways to do target an AoE with a conteoller, but there are no ways that I can think of or have ever seen to do it as well (fast, accurate, independent) as can be done with a mouse and keyboard setup.

If it can't be done to the same level, on my opinion it shouldn't be done.

...so why would it matter that others are playing in a more restricted way?

I would say it does not matter unless controller users are fine with the situation.

Undead Canuck

So, how many hours of coding to you believe it will take to build controller support in the game (I can guarantee the number is large)? And what if those hours change the release date?

cyanideinsanity

noaani wrote: »

I am not saying the game shouldn't allow controllers. In fact, even if the developers tried to do this, it would fail.

What I am saying is that unless they can make everything work in game with a controller as well as it does with a mouse and keyboard, they are better off not officially supporting controllers with the game, but leaving players to make use of UE4's inbuilt ability to handle controllers if they set it up themselves.

I'm disagree that it would fail. Another example is gw2 with its action camera setting, it handles aimed aoe this way.

Nagash

Am I the only one who feels its physical wrong to play an MMO with a controller?

Noaani

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

I am not saying the game shouldn't allow controllers. In fact, even if the developers tried to do this, it would fail.

What I am saying is that unless they can make everything work in game with a controller as well as it does with a mouse and keyboard, they are better off not officially supporting controllers with the game, but leaving players to make use of UE4's inbuilt ability to handle controllers if they set it up themselves.

I'm disagree that it would fail. Another example is gw2 with its action camera setting, it handles aimed aoe this way.

And people using controllers there are at a distinct disadvantage. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it can't be done without controller players being at a disadvantage.

I would not be happy with that level, as I said earlier, if a player with a controller is at a disadvantage, Intrepid should not support it but rather leave players to map their own controller within UE4, which would net the same results.

Nagash wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels its physical wrong to play an MMO with a controller?

Nope.

I've never allowed players with controllers on my raids.

I'm a big fan of letting people play the way they want to play, and so for that reason, and that reason only, if someone wants to play with a controller, that's their problem.

However, if someone is purposely reducing their in game effectiveness on putpose by using a controller, I won't put the time in to trying to turn then in to effective raiders, and won't waste the time of the rest of my raid by taking them along.

If a player can't look directly at me and cast an AoE 60° to their side, without having to turn their character, they are of no use to me.

Undead Canuck

Nagash wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels its physical wrong to play an MMO with a controller?

Nope, I am sure a lot of people would agree. Especially since at least 25% of your abilities are action.

Caeryl

noaani wrote: »

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

I am not saying the game shouldn't allow controllers. In fact, even if the developers tried to do this, it would fail.

What I am saying is that unless they can make everything work in game with a controller as well as it does with a mouse and keyboard, they are better off not officially supporting controllers with the game, but leaving players to make use of UE4's inbuilt ability to handle controllers if they set it up themselves.

I'm disagree that it would fail. Another example is gw2 with its action camera setting, it handles aimed aoe this way.

And people using controllers there are at a distinct disadvantage. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it can't be done without controller players being at a disadvantage.

I would not be happy with that level, as I said earlier, if a player with a controller is at a disadvantage, Intrepid should not support it but rather leave players to map their own controller within UE4, which would net the same results.

Nagash wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels its physical wrong to play an MMO with a controller?

Nope.

I've never allowed players with controllers on my raids.

I'm a big fan of letting people play the way they want to play, and so for that reason, and that reason only, if someone wants to play with a controller, that's their problem.

However, if someone is purposely reducing their in game effectiveness on putpose by using a controller, I won't put the time in to trying to turn then in to effective raiders, and won't waste the time of the rest of my raid by taking them along.

If a player can't look directly at me and cast an AoE 60° to their side, without having to turn their character, they are of no use to me.

AOEs are currently considered an action ability. There’s no reason it couldn’t have options to have cast location based on camera angle. It’s just as fast or faster to glance to the side to cast an AOE than to cast and click toward the side of your screen. You wouldn’t even notice the difference.

Playing with a game pad, if supported by the developer, is just as effective as mouse and keyboard. For many, they play better because it’s a more natural fit and more comfortable than using mouse and keyboard.

Excluding someone for using a game pad sounds just as dumb as excluding someone for not using an MMO mouse.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

I am not saying the game shouldn't allow controllers. In fact, even if the developers tried to do this, it would fail.

What I am saying is that unless they can make everything work in game with a controller as well as it does with a mouse and keyboard, they are better off not officially supporting controllers with the game, but leaving players to make use of UE4's inbuilt ability to handle controllers if they set it up themselves.

I'm disagree that it would fail. Another example is gw2 with its action camera setting, it handles aimed aoe this way.

And people using controllers there are at a distinct disadvantage. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it can't be done without controller players being at a disadvantage.

I would not be happy with that level, as I said earlier, if a player with a controller is at a disadvantage, Intrepid should not support it but rather leave players to map their own controller within UE4, which would net the same results.

Nagash wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels its physical wrong to play an MMO with a controller?

Nope.

I've never allowed players with controllers on my raids.

I'm a big fan of letting people play the way they want to play, and so for that reason, and that reason only, if someone wants to play with a controller, that's their problem.

However, if someone is purposely reducing their in game effectiveness on putpose by using a controller, I won't put the time in to trying to turn then in to effective raiders, and won't waste the time of the rest of my raid by taking them along.

If a player can't look directly at me and cast an AoE 60° to their side, without having to turn their character, they are of no use to me.

AOEs are currently considered an action ability. There’s no reason it couldn’t have options to have cast location based on camera angle. It’s just as fast or faster to glance to the side to cast an AOE than to cast and click toward the side of your screen. You wouldn’t even notice the difference.

It is noticable, *especially* in a raid setting.

Rangers are a good example here. More than any class, they usually have the ability to use abilities while on the run. If using a controller with a system where you turn your camera to aim, that ranger is now running at his target rather than runnig past it while casting an AoE.

Because of this, if I had a Ranger in my raid that used a controller, I simply would not be able to assign them specific tasks that the raid may call for that I would happily assign to a Ranger using a mouse and keyboard.

Unless there is a way to eminiate any discrepancy, it is not in Intrepids best interest to support controllers in game. Not supporting controllers won't stop people with controllers using them, as it is really easy to set a controller up yourself.

The difference is, if Intrepid support controllers, players using them should be able to expect to not be at a disadvantage for using them. Now, if Intrepid find a way to do that (aiming the camera to aim AoE's is not the answer), then thats great, support them. If they can't find a way to make that happen, don't support them.

Some people do prefer a controller, this is true. However, that is due to them having played with a controller more than anything else. If those players put the time in to getting used to mouse and keyboard, they wouldn't go back to controllers (they wouldn't go back to console gaming).

All you need to look at to understand this point are the reaults from online games that have mixed PC and console players. They have ALL either had to restrict PC player character maneuvering speed, or PC players have decimated other players.

There are no exceptions to this, and I am including games where developers have allowed foor mix platform, and where PC players found their own way on.

Ravudha

FFXIV is kind of a funny example. The FF franchise has a huge console-based player/fan base, so it made sense for them to actually design the MMO early on with controllers in mind.

With other MMOs, I wonder if there really would be many players looking for controller support other than that subset of FFXIV players.

Plateau

The only reason it would really be worth it is if the game intended to support consoles. There are a significant amount of console players who enjoy MMOs, and they would use a controller of course. But there aren't enough PC MMO players who prefer controller, so there's not much point for Intrepid to support them.

But yeah, it is technically possible. So here's a bunch of rambling that is unnecessary because Ashes won't be on consoles:

The only unsolvable issue with controllers, is that you can't target an arbitrary point in an instant. It always takes longer to move a cursor/camera with a velocity-based joystick than it does with a position-based mouse. But really, the difference is incredibly tiny when it comes to MMOs. You almost never need to react to something and move your reticle to target an arbitrary spot in less than a second. Normally, you can just tab-target, or just pre-position your camera before you need to cast. And in the rare case where only a mouse would be quick enough, chances are you could have just picked a different tactic that works just as well.

The level of quick, wide-range precision that mice offer, is only necessary in shooting games and top-tier RTS competition. And MAYBE top-tier raids in with specific builds, where you need to throw AoEs in random spots, without any time to pre-position. (That's a lot of conditionals, ain't it?) Any problems that a controller might have outside of those situations can be designed around by the game/software devs or prepared for by the player.

As people have alluded to, most of the difficulties can be solved with the following set-up: D-Pad for tab target. Possibly a button for focus-target. Movement on the left stick, entirely separate from the camera on the right-stick (reticle/cursor in the center). Triggers used as modifier-keys to select separate hotbars + different buttons (or combos) for each hotkey.

And I say all of this, despite being a K+M user for my entire life (the only console I've owned is a Wii). I am completely worthless with a controller in my hands, but it's not hard to see how it could work. And I've seen people in FFXIV doing high-end raids with a controller and no problem; I've even co-healed with someone who uses a controller. (To be fair though, most classes are entirely tab-targeted, so free-targeting isn't really an issue in that game.)

Nagash

It still feels wrong to me

Noaani

leonerdo wrote: »

The level of quick, wide-range precision that mice offer, is only necessary in shooting games and top-tier RTS competition. And MAYBE top-tier raids in with specific builds, where you need to throw AoEs in random spots, without any time to pre-position.

I agree with most of what you've said, except for this part.

Taking longer to aim an AoE ability or accurately pan your camera (the other major thing I can see being an issue) would have an impact on PvE raiding, with out a doubt. This is why I have always prevented players using controllers from raiding (the one time I had someone on a raid wanting to use a controller, I challenged them to use a mouse and keyboard for a month - they never looked back).

However, it will be a bigger disadvantage in PvP than in PvE. In PvP, if your opponent knows you are using a controller, they will be able to use that against you. Unless Intrepid purposefully restrict character movement, you will have less control over your character when a controller than you have with a mouse and keyboard. This is simply due to the fact that a controller offers fewer options, with less precise control input - that is an issue that simply can't be overcome without limiting the ability of all players to control their character to match that of a controller.

Caeryl

noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

cyanideinsanity wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

I am not saying the game shouldn't allow controllers. In fact, even if the developers tried to do this, it would fail.

What I am saying is that unless they can make everything work in game with a controller as well as it does with a mouse and keyboard, they are better off not officially supporting controllers with the game, but leaving players to make use of UE4's inbuilt ability to handle controllers if they set it up themselves.

I'm disagree that it would fail. Another example is gw2 with its action camera setting, it handles aimed aoe this way.

And people using controllers there are at a distinct disadvantage. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it can't be done without controller players being at a disadvantage.

I would not be happy with that level, as I said earlier, if a player with a controller is at a disadvantage, Intrepid should not support it but rather leave players to map their own controller within UE4, which would net the same results.

Nagash wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels its physical wrong to play an MMO with a controller?

Nope.

I've never allowed players with controllers on my raids.

I'm a big fan of letting people play the way they want to play, and so for that reason, and that reason only, if someone wants to play with a controller, that's their problem.

However, if someone is purposely reducing their in game effectiveness on putpose by using a controller, I won't put the time in to trying to turn then in to effective raiders, and won't waste the time of the rest of my raid by taking them along.

If a player can't look directly at me and cast an AoE 60° to their side, without having to turn their character, they are of no use to me.

AOEs are currently considered an action ability. There’s no reason it couldn’t have options to have cast location based on camera angle. It’s just as fast or faster to glance to the side to cast an AOE than to cast and click toward the side of your screen. You wouldn’t even notice the difference.

It is noticable, *especially* in a raid setting.

Rangers are a good example here. More than any class, they usually have the ability to use abilities while on the run. If using a controller with a system where you turn your camera to aim, that ranger is now running at his target rather than runnig past it while casting an AoE.

Except there literally nothing stopping a player from using action stance where camera and directional movement are separate. There’s a ton of games that work that way. Any shooter for instance. Any action RPG. It’s already shown it works fine.

Ventharien

noaani wrote: »

Rangers are a good example here. More than any class, they usually have the ability to use abilities while on the run. If using a controller with a system where you turn your camera to aim, that ranger is now running at his target rather than runnig past it while casting an AoE.

If they were that serious about raiding theyd have one joystick move the character while the other would control the camera. I had a buddy that for whatever reason hated playing mouse and keyboard, so for SWTOR, he mapped out an xbox controller with xpadder, and was routinely top dps of his raids. Could he have done even more on mouse and keyboard? Probably. But it was how he was most comfortable, which i think is the most important thing. I'd agree though that there are more than enough tools for people to set up controller layouts that they like, and IS shouldn't stop them from doing so, but should have it supported in the actual game either.

Damokles

Im just gonna say one thing:
One of my raiders managed to play his Mage in WoW on a Racingwheel.

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

Im just gonna say one thing:
One of my raiders managed to play his Mage in WoW on a Racingwheel.

I'm not sure if I should be impressed or horrified

Noaani

It's kind of silly saying "this game supports controllers well", or "this genre doesn't have a disadvantage for players using a controller", as if a game or a genre supports controller play to the point where it is as effective as a mouse and keyboard, the developers have simply limited what can be done with a mouse and keyboard.

Caeryl wrote: »

Except there literally nothing stopping a player from using action stance where camera and directional movement are separate. There’s a ton of games that work that way. Any shooter for instance. Any action RPG. It’s already shown it works fine.

Most games that I've played have character movement and camera control separate.

It isn't that it doesn't work - that was never a point I have tried to make. My point is that it is slower and less accurate with a controller than with a mouse.

In games with camera control separate from character control, I can spin my mouse around 180° in about a quarter of a second, accurately. That simply can not be done with a controller at the same speed with the same accuracy.

And lets not even talk about being able to run in a specific direction, pan the camera to take stock of the situation you are in, while at the same time cycling through potential targets. This is actually easy with a keyboard and mouse(W + repeat pressing tab, and using the mouse to look), yet actually impossible with a controller (D-pad and both joysticks, simultaneously, and all in different directions).

Ventharien wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Rangers are a good example here. More than any class, they usually have the ability to use abilities while on the run. If using a controller with a system where you turn your camera to aim, that ranger is now running at his target rather than runnig past it while casting an AoE.

Could he have done even more on mouse and keyboard? Probably.

This is why I have always said people in my raids should use a mouse and keyboard.

I've never said it isn't possible to play with a controller, nor have I said it shouldn't be possible.

If it were not for the fact that it is easy to set UE4 up to use a controller, my opinion here may be different. However, since it is easy to set up, players wanting to use a controller will be able to do so. I am not saying players shouldn't be able to use a controller if they wish, that would be an odd thing for me to say considering my opinion on basically everything else is that players should be free to make their own decisions.

All I have said is that players playing with a controller are at a disadvantage to players playing with a mouse and keyboard, and unless that disadvantage can be overcome in a manner that doesn't simply limit what a player with a mouse and keyboard can do (which is what many games to to allow players with a controller to be competitive), then I don't personally think it would be a good idea for Intrepid to support controllers in game.

Damokles wrote: »

Im just gonna say one thing:
One of my raiders managed to play his Mage in WoW on a Racingwheel.

I'm fairly sure it would be possible for a single player in a competent guild to participate in a guild raid in WoW with a reasonable amount of success using the controller from an Atari 2600 (you know, the joystick with a single red button).

Damokles

@Nagash both!

@noaani we should also never forget the time, where a hunter in WoW could bind all his abilities to his mousewheel and just had to scroll down to play a good beastmaster hunter in Burning Crusade

Atama

Neverwinter Online worked great for me on a controller, including the ability to place AoEs.

On the other hand, that was on an Xbox, so it was designed from the start to work well with a controller. And everyone had to use a controller so it was an even playing field. The success in that MMO may not translate to a PC MMO like Ashes.

By the way, I remember when we were practicing over and over in my guild to beat Sindragosa in WoW (the second-to-last raid boss in Wrath of the Lich King). One of our guildies consistently failed to get into cover in time and in that fight losing just one person could torpedo the whole fight. We didn’t get on his case but rather had a chat with him to figure out why he was having problems moving quickly enough.

During the course of the discussion we figured out that he was using the arrow keys on his keyboard to move around. He never used the mouse to turn, and apparently he had always played MMOs that way. We gamed with him for years in different games and we never knew that is how he played. He was literally a keyboard turner, which up until that point I’d only known as an insult. I’d never known a person who actually did it. Anyway, he learned to use the mouse and no longer had a problem.

I don’t think using a controller is nearly that bad but just the same, it might be the difference between someone raid ending in a wipe or a success if the delay is enough to cause you to not be able to do something critical fast enough. If the only problem is a little bit of delay dropping an AoE though, that seems like a nitpick. And the one thing about AoE abilities is that aiming isn’t always that important. You know what they say, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Hand grenades are AoE too!

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