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Open lore questions - if Sanctus has no magic...

RavudhaRavudha Member
in General Discussion
The people of Verra fled to Sanctus through gateways that were granted by divine intervention. The description of essence says it's in all magic, and divine is given as a type of magic, like corruption.

If we take divine power as a form of magic, how were the gateways able to open on Sanctus when Sanctus has no magic? Does this mean magic can be brought 'to' Sanctus or other places with no magic?

Secondly, players at level 1 will likely have magical abilities but come from a Sanctus where magic hasn't been used in generations. Did we study some old books on how to use magic before stepping through the gateways, or are we suddenly imbued with magic as we step through and have to figure it out..or something else?

So many questions...

Comments

  • DrEpochDrEpoch Member, Alpha Two
    I like this. Real question hours.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I believe this came up either during a livestream or q&a session in 2017. Steven said there are lore reasons and was not willing to share them due to potential spoilers. Or he could just have been shining everyone on.
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  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2020
    Okay here is my explanation for it:
    Imagine Verra being surrounded by a barrier. You need magic to punch through the barrier. The only magic is inside the barrier.
    Now comes the hard part. They used the magic inside the barrier to punch through it and send people through. This would be a magical rip through space and time.
    Those rips are normally not stable. Thats where the gates come into play. The gates stabilize the rips and protect the people from being ripped apart by the forces involved with such trips through space and time. The gates basically create a survivable wormhole portal between Verra and Sanctus.
    You still with me yet? Good.
    The people go though the wormhole portals to sanctus. A few die but the majority survives.
    Now is the question: how will they return?
    Easy. They give the gates predetermined conditions for a reopening sequence of the gates.
    Lets say that the gates are able to communicate with one another over long distances and that the predetermined condition is that all gates have to report extremely low values of corruption. Once they all give back acceptable numbers, then a central communication hub gives the green light and they all reactivate at the same time.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Now regarding the magic for lvl 1 chracters question.
    Lets assume, that magical abilities are genetically given. Some people can do it, some only with specific conditions, some cant at all. And lets also assume that magic works like a muscle: it increases with use.

    Now lets look at the people.
    If someone is theoretically able to absorb mana then they would need to take it in from their surroundings. That wont work in a world without mana. Without the ability to absorb the mana from the outside, the people wont be able to use their magic abilities. That means that they will start out extremely weak, with the potential to grow stronger over time.

    The reason, for why it would be bad that they let mana from Verra to Yanctus is, because if mana could ckme over, then that would mean that corruption could come over too.
  • Balrog21Balrog21 Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There is little lore out there, do you think we should be given more?
    Personally I do, it will help create interest and worth for the game. Now, I'm not saying give it all to us, but enough for us potential players to invest time into and talk about. Enough for us to engage with other potential players and then we can start to think about our character choices, our motivations, etc.
    No, I'm not saying spoil the whole story for us, but give us enough to make us want to go into the world and find out it's secrets, and make us want the new old world succeed in where the old one failed be it however the darkness came.
    Heck even if it's only one piece of Lore a month.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Balrog21 wrote: »
    There is little lore out there, do you think we should be given more?
    Personally I do, it will help create interest and worth for the game. Now, I'm not saying give it all to us, but enough for us potential players to invest time into and talk about. Enough for us to engage with other potential players and then we can start to think about our character choices, our motivations, etc.
    No, I'm not saying spoil the whole story for us, but give us enough to make us want to go into the world and find out it's secrets, and make us want the new old world succeed in where the old one failed be it however the darkness came.
    Heck even if it's only one piece of Lore a month.

    I agree that we could have more, but I'm sure Intrepid would rather hold on to things like this for when they are closer to launch.

    Lore released (especially if in the form of a good short story), along with details on classes and long awaited races can cause a good bit of press, which creates buzz around the game. Best to do that in the months leading up to release imo.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Releasing lore too early in development also boxes them in later for design decisions. We saw this with the Dillia's Diary and the Bearded Bard, which were broken down word by word and have been used by people as such with snappy answers of "In paragraph 2, sentence 3, corruption is described as such. Therefore, they can never do this, because there is the proof." and "If the Vaelune are vegan, why is there concept art with them sitting at a table with meat dishes!"
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  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    Balrog21 wrote: »
    There is little lore out there, do you think we should be given more?

    I think all that should be given is enough to serve as a narrative hook for prospective players and enough to set it apart from other IPs if possible. Beyond that, it feels like players would be drawn in more by the game mechanics.
  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2020
    Ravudha wrote: »
    The people of Verra fled to Sanctus through gateways that were granted by divine intervention. The description of essence says it's in all magic, and divine is given as a type of magic, like corruption.

    If we take divine power as a form of magic, how were the gateways able to open on Sanctus when Sanctus has no magic? Does this mean magic can be brought 'to' Sanctus or other places with no magic?

    Secondly, players at level 1 will likely have magical abilities but come from a Sanctus where magic hasn't been used in generations. Did we study some old books on how to use magic before stepping through the gateways, or are we suddenly imbued with magic as we step through and have to figure it out..or something else?

    So many questions...

    Hello,

    let's delve deeper, shall we? 1st let's begin with how we have gateways

    We know that the Gods heeded the calls from the people.
    Granted by divine intervention, much of the population fled Verra through towering gateways, seeking refuge in a world void of magic. The world of Sanctus.

    Your question about how the gateways popped up in a non-magic land could be explained away as simply, it was the act of Gods and not human magics. However we might find that out in-game, I have yet to find any lore about that part outside of there being other realms of reality in the world... but moving on.

    It is also to be noted that Magic wasn't the only thing that old verra used, they also were diverse in technology.


    A long long long time ago, everybody lived on a planet called Verra. Something cataclysmic happened that forced people from that world to another world called Sanctus. Verra is a place of really high magic. Sanctus is a place with no magic whatsoever.
    People escaped through these portals into the world of Sanctus. They had to rediscover technology because so much of their current technology was based on magic, so they had to figure out how to interact with the world.
    Thousands and thousands of years go by. A long dark age passes. This history that I just told you falls into myth and legend. After this time passes, these portals reopen and the players are going to take the part of people who are coming through those portals once again back to the world of Verra to rediscover that magic, rediscover their history, and try to figure out what happened to this world to force them out of it.

    -Jeffrey Bard


    Now some lore from APOC would suggest that Verrans possessed the technology to reanimate the gateways that were supposed to be "divine"

    Entry 3 - Rarefied Ingredient
    In the construction of the four great Divine Gateways, there were required exceedingly rare and powerful materials. In a different time, they would have been difficult and dangerous to acquire, but The Harbingers made this almost impossible. In spite of that, the Lightpact sent out teams of hardened veterans to find and retrieve these materials. Those who comprised these teams were specialists in their trade, with strong minds capable of resisting the call of corruption. Most didn't return. But enough of them did.



    Still, if we are left with the question if the divine power that activated them in the first place was still needed or if it was some type of residual power. Was the essence manipulated and how did they figure out this manipulation method? (all unanswered questions still)

    Then your question about players having magic once back in Verra, I don't think it would be that simple. we are not the first expedition back to the world.
    The Iron Lion is a fairly new order, one formed out of a desire to control the unknowable. With the rediscovery of the old world, many Kaelar wondered what lay beyond, considering the incredible power the divine gateways represented. To this end, the Iron Lion focuses not only on martial combat but also on the art of dampening magic. Without such knowledge, establishing a foothold may be all but impossible - rampant magic is unpredictable, and many times lethal, a complication in any sort. Due to this, the Iron Lion puts forth significant effort in studying and learning about the magic they come across, hoping to minimize the dangers they pose

    Also from Steven and Jeff about wanting players to discover these things through storytelling.
    heard a lot of people asking was you know from a technological standpoint where do the people returning stand in relation to what their civilization was before the fall and I think that in some regards they haven't quite even attained what their people were able to achieve before the exodus. – Steven Sharif
    All of the events are based around storytelling. All of the narrative quests are based around storytelling. All the organizational quests are based around storytelling. You know the game is built from a story basically, so we want to make sure that there are context and relevancy for all of the actions that you're doing in the game. – Jeffrey Bard

    I hope I was able to help a little and maybe spark more curiosity.
    I am in love with lore and I would encourage everyone to pick apart every lore bit. There are things in AOC lore that I don't think many have pieced together outside of myself and a few others. Please continue to be curious.


    References from wiki
  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    edited April 2020
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Still, if we are left with the question if the divine power that activated them in the first place was still needed or if it was some type of residual power. Was the essence manipulated and how did they figure out this manipulation method? (all unanswered questions still)

    Then your question about players having magic once back in Verra, I don't think it would be that simple. we are not the first expedition back to the world.

    The second part helps - the earlier expeditions would explain how we enter the world with some knowledge of how to start dealing with magic.

    For the first part, I'm inclined to agree the essence was manipulated in some way to allow magic to operate outside Verra and think the portals used (divine) magic in at least some part due to magic's prevalence in those times. Also because the Gods created Verra, so they basically created something imbued with magic (presumably in the void of space rather than a magical pocket of space) - the gateway could have residual magic imbued in it.

    If essence can be manipulated, it also gives a foundation for the exiled Ancients to be able to adapt and regain power while exiled or the Harbingers to have power while separated from Verra without relying purely on technology (thinking that powerful adversaries would not all be technologically-themes) or the location of pockets of magic in the universe. All speculation at this point.
  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2020
    Ravudha wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Still, if we are left with the question if the divine power that activated them in the first place was still needed or if it was some type of residual power. Was the essence manipulated and how did they figure out this manipulation method? (all unanswered questions still)

    Then your question about players having magic once back in Verra, I don't think it would be that simple. we are not the first expedition back to the world.

    The second part helps - the earlier expeditions would explain how we enter the world with some knowledge of how to start dealing with magic.

    For the first part, I'm inclined to agree the essence was manipulated in some way to allow magic to operate outside Verra and think the portals used (divine) magic in at least some part due to magic's prevalence in those times. Also because the Gods created Verra, so they basically created something imbued with magic (presumably in the void of space rather than a magical pocket of space) - the gateway could have residual magic imbued in it.

    If essence can be manipulated, it also gives a foundation for the exiled Ancients to be able to adapt and regain power while exiled or the Harbingers to have power while separated from Verra without relying purely on technology (thinking that powerful adversaries would not all be technologically-themes) or the location of pockets of magic in the universe. All speculation at this point.

    So let's recount the lore a bit for those reading this post lol

    Exiled aka The Others= 3 original gods who rebelled against their brothers/sisters (known as the TEN)
    The Ancients= beings created from by the TEN imbued with all their qualities and presuming some of their powers. The first life forms before any other and before VERRA.

    The others taught the ancients forbidden knowledge and the other 7 gods began a war with both the ancients and the others.

    The 7 gods won and exiled their foes to wherever. ....end lore summary lol


    So if by chance the 7 did not separate the others and the ancients from their powers but only weakened them, then your theory of them regaining their strength works.
    Yet if they did in fact tear away from their powers then we can also assume that the void they resided in was filled with these rocks(harbingers) or ships they arrive back on and somehow filled them with magics.

    Another theory is that the harbingers themselves are the actual prison cells of the ancients and the others and somehow they found a way to re-enter Verra's atmosphere or reality.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The gods re-activated the portals.
    Gods can do whatever they want. If they really wanted to work magic on Sanctus, they could.
    Magic is rampant on Verra - there, it's really about learning to control the magic.
  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2020
    Dygz wrote: »
    The gods re-activated the portals.
    Gods can do whatever they want. If they really wanted to work magic on Sanctus, they could.
    Magic is rampant on Verra - there, it's really about learning to control the magic.

    I don't agree with your first assumption since we have no knowledge of where the power of the gods comes from, if it's inherent or if they require veneration to maintain it.

    The gods power still resides within the portals but it's never been said if the divines themselves reactivated the gateways, we do know that the light pact was using special materials to reactivate them by some means.

    3rd That goes against any lore, Sanctus has no magic. That has been said over and over, the closet thing they could get to magic would be science. They could call that magic as it would seem like magic to them but it's not the Magic that resides on verra.
  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    edited April 2020
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    The gods re-activated the portals.
    Gods can do whatever they want. If they really wanted to work magic on Sanctus, they could.
    Magic is rampant on Verra - there, it's really about learning to control the magic.

    I don't agree with your first assumption since we have no knowledge of where the power of the gods comes from, if it's inherent or if they require veneration to maintain it.

    The gods power still resides within the portals but it's never been said if the divines themselves reactivated the gateways, we do know that the light pact was using special materials to reactivate them by some means.

    3rd That goes against any lore, Sanctus has no magic. That has been said over and over, the closet thing they could get to magic would be science. They could call that magic as it would seem like magic to them but it's not the Magic that resides on verra.

    Even if Sanctus has no magic normally, it seems plausible magic can be placed there.The gods creating Verra is a strong precedent that they, beings wielding magic in space (or whatever realm they inhabited), can place/create magic in other parts of space (barring any special rules of that universe that limit magic to certain pockets of space).
  • DayuhanDayuhan Member
    Just to fan the flames of debate a little. It could be that the portal site is a very small extrusion of Verra. It is sort of a magical space-fold. Where a certain location on Verra is linked to a certain location on Sanctus. In this way the portal itself retains its magic, because it is still connected to Verra, but as soon as you step out side the portal's area of influence the magic dies as the reality from the realm of Sanctus takes over.

    This would explain why the portal went inactive for so long, the magic from Verra that sustained it's area of influence waned and the portal withered and went dormant, like a plant that has not received enough water, once Verra's native magic recovered the portal also began to recover until it once again became strong enough to exert a sphere of influence on Sanctus again.
  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    @Dayuhan yeah maybe...there are teleport spells/augments, so space folding could be a thing.
  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2020
    Sanctus not having magic is simple. No magic=no essence manipulation=no corruption

    The Divines thought this through, it wasn't just an "oh hey, here's a new home" on a whim. Yet to prove that I would need to know

    How long it took the corruption to spread
    where was patient zero (region, race)
    How much time between the harbingers arriving, the ancients attacking and the gateways activating
    How long the gateway stayed open
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Sanctus not having magic is simple. No magic=no essence manipulation=no corruption

    The Divines thought this through, it wasn't just an "oh hey, here's a new home" on a whim. Yet to prove that I would need to know

    How long it took the corruption to spread
    where was patient zero (region, race)
    How much time between the harbingers arriving, the ancients attacking and the gateways activating
    How long the gateway stayed open

    that sounds like the warp!
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Pretty much, yup. The warp essence corrupts after some time, and that is what happened to Verra. It's a Verra simple explanation.
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