Founder Packs/Early Access Concerns

So here's a big concern, I have seen over a dozen founder packs over the years for ashes of creation and all of them promise unique cosmetic sets. These packs have never shown actual models for these cosmetic sets but just concept art. The issue with these packs and what makes me concerned is that the sheer amount of cosmetics that have been promised would be realistically impossible to create on the game's launch. We have to keep in mind the following:

1. The game is still in development, the animators and designers have to be making assets for the core game and won't be able to dedicate much time to making the founder pack cosmetics.

2. They have to give everyone the cosmetics that they have paid for, they have never said when they would do so but it would be required that they eventually give them the cosmetics. This could mean that they will have to pull development resources after the game's launch to make these cosmetic items.

3. I've shown this point already but I have yet to see any actual in-game models for the cosmetic packs that have been sold. Now one could simply address this by showing me one or two packs that they have completed but such wouldn't be enough, ideally they will have to complete these packs before the game launches or within the year of launch.

My only guess on how it would be logistically possible to make these is if they had somehow acquired the funds needed to pay a foreign studio to make these assets for them. I believe I have heard them confess to contracting studios outside of their own for some graphical content. While contracting a foreign studio to create game assets may seem like a great idea, it's not. The simple reason for why this isn't a good idea is that the way one designer may build an asset will always be different from the way another designer would design that exact asset. This means that the style in which these assets are made will look entirely different and will simply not fit within the game's art-style, this ruins immersion and makes the game look like some asset store rip-off if done excessively.

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Noaani

drfate786 wrote: »

This means that the style in which these assets are made will look entirely different and will simply not fit within the game's art-style, this ruins immersion and makes the game look like some asset store rip-off if done excessively.

This isn't necessarily true.

A part of being a commercial artist is that you create art based on the design decisions of your client.

If Ashes have a strong design direction, they could outsource every art asset in the game to different studios and artists, and there would still be a strong coherence in the game.

On the other hand, if they have a weak or non-specific design direction, they could have every art asset made in house and yet still not have any coherence at all among them.

I do agree with your point about not having seen cosmetics in the games engine though, this is why I am only purchasing ones that really stand out to me - rather than any that I may potentially be interested in.

Wandering Mist

I can understand the concern. In fact, we brought this up in a recent podcast I was on, looking at the sheer amount of things that have been promised yet we haven't seen any evidence of yet.

That said, one thing to keep in mind is that the art assets are usually finished first, and often near the end of the development cycle the art and animation team has relatively little to do. This is why a lot of studios have the art team do extra cosmetics to make a bit of extra money for the company.

drfate786

noaani wrote: »

drfate786 wrote: »

This means that the style in which these assets are made will look entirely different and will simply not fit within the game's art-style, this ruins immersion and makes the game look like some asset store rip-off if done excessively.

This isn't necessarily true.

A part of being a commercial artist is that you create art based on the design decisions of your client.

If Ashes have a strong design direction, they could outsource every art asset in the game to different studios and artists, and there would still be a strong coherence in the game.

On the other hand, if they have a weak or non-specific design direction, they could have every art asset made in house and yet still not have any coherence at all among them.

I do agree with your point about not having seen cosmetics in the games engine though, this is why I am only purchasing ones that really stand out to me - rather than any that I may potentially be interested in.

That's the problem, the design decisions of the client are usually vague. Most clients will give you a piece of concept art and say: "This is what I want, make it happen". This leads to the concept art being followed to the letter but it also leads to these very tiny differences that people eventually notice.

Here's an example:

Let's say Fromm Software (creator of dark souls) agreed to do an outside contract for art assets. They receive the concept art in the most recent founder pack and stick with that design to the letter, they might introduce tiny details like specks of dirt or a rougher model that would go unnoticed at first glance due to it sticking to the concept art.

Now let's say a different studio agreed to an outside contract for a completely different set, one that is the exact opposite to the darker themes of the most recent one. Ie, a high elven set or angelic one. They might not add specks of dirt or rougher details and might make it look more like something you'd see in final fantasy or Archeage.

Now, we're at game launch. Both sets have been added in game and players begin to notice these distinct differences in the sets. Anuerisms are had, riots are formed and immersion is ruined for all. This is why contracting is bad for game assets, there's always these tiny differences that go unnoticed until it's too late.

drfate786

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I can understand the concern. In fact, we brought this up in a recent podcast I was on, looking at the sheer amount of things that have been promised yet we haven't seen any evidence of yet.

That said, one thing to keep in mind is that the art assets are usually finished first, and often near the end of the development cycle the art and animation team has relatively little to do. This is why a lot of studios have the art team do extra cosmetics to make a bit of extra money for the company.

Yet, we haven't seen any of these cosmetic packs. If they had the time and had completed some of them then why haven't we seen samples?

Noaani

drfate786 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

drfate786 wrote: »

This means that the style in which these assets are made will look entirely different and will simply not fit within the game's art-style, this ruins immersion and makes the game look like some asset store rip-off if done excessively.

This isn't necessarily true.

A part of being a commercial artist is that you create art based on the design decisions of your client.

If Ashes have a strong design direction, they could outsource every art asset in the game to different studios and artists, and there would still be a strong coherence in the game.

On the other hand, if they have a weak or non-specific design direction, they could have every art asset made in house and yet still not have any coherence at all among them.

I do agree with your point about not having seen cosmetics in the games engine though, this is why I am only purchasing ones that really stand out to me - rather than any that I may potentially be interested in.

That's the problem, the design decisions of the client are usually vague. Most clients will give you a piece of concept art and say: "This is what I want, make it happen". This leads to the concept art being followed to the letter but it also leads to these very tiny differences that people eventually notice.

Here's an example:

Let's say Fromm Software (creator of dark souls) agreed to do an outside contract for art assets. They receive the concept art in the most recent founder pack and stick with that design to the letter, they might introduce tiny details like specks of dirt or a rougher model that would go unnoticed at first glance due to it sticking to the concept art.

Now let's say a different studio agreed to an outside contract for a completely different set, one that is the exact opposite to the darker themes of the most recent one. Ie, a high elven set or angelic one. They might not add specks of dirt or rougher details and might make it look more like something you'd see in final fantasy or Archeage.

Now, we're at game launch. Both sets have been added in game and players begin to notice these distinct differences in the sets. Anuerisms are had, riots are formed and immersion is ruined for all. This is why contracting is bad for game assets, there's always these tiny differences that go unnoticed until it's too late.

The problem here is that you can simply alter these scenarios to instead be talking about different in-house artists.

When creating art for anything, you have the individual artists impression of the design guidance, and nothing else. It doesn't matter if that artist is outsourced or from inside the company - all that matters is how that artist interprets the guidance.

The studio that the art was made in will have a small impact on how the artist interprets the guidance, but this is no different to how an in-house artists previous experience will also impact how they interpret that same guidance.

While it is easy to then say "but Intrepid can pick who they hire", it is just as easy to point out that Intrepid can also pick which studios they outsource to.

Bet even then, the studio you pick should be the second biggest influence behind the end result, the biggest being the guidance you give.

Give good guidance, get cohesive results. Give poor guidance, get poor results. In-house or outsourced aren't the major factors here.

unknownsystemerror

They have released around 400 3d renders of stuff. KS stuff is mixed in there. The idea that they are just sitting on your rewards and you aren't going to see them is just pearl clutching. Patience.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Category:3D_renders

Wandering Mist

drfate786 wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I can understand the concern. In fact, we brought this up in a recent podcast I was on, looking at the sheer amount of things that have been promised yet we haven't seen any evidence of yet.

That said, one thing to keep in mind is that the art assets are usually finished first, and often near the end of the development cycle the art and animation team has relatively little to do. This is why a lot of studios have the art team do extra cosmetics to make a bit of extra money for the company.

Yet, we haven't seen any of these cosmetic packs. If they had the time and had completed some of them then why haven't we seen samples?

Because we aren't anywhere close to the end of the development cycle yet....

Amist

To answer your third point, here are a few of the already finished items from some of the pre-order packs:

Obsidian stallion

Tidebreaker

Brew bear

Dawnbreaker

Runic steed

Fellbeak Macaw

It is important to understand that Intrepid are currently developing the basic models and skeletons for each different type of creature, i.e. bears, horses, raptors, etc. What they can then do with these presets is make alterations on them, like adding armor, changing the fur/texture, adding horns and so on and so forth. This makes the development progress much smoother when they're looking to create the in-game models for the different cosmetics in the future and might be the reason why we are yet to see most of them.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Ryufu

They have been making minor changes to the base armor appearances for players still. I think once that gets finalized, you'll see a ton of cosmetics getting shown. Just my own guess though.

Hartwell

Amist wrote: »

...

Just to add on some more renders, mostly from that link that unknownsystemerror provided.

Quarrior:

Pridestalker:

Dunewing Falcon:

Ochre Legion Dragon:

Cursed Charger:

Daystrider Mule:

Shadow Dragon:

Troll of Joyous Artillery:

Swift Claw:

Scalerunner:

Tidesnapper:

Ramstone Hauler:

A lot of these are mini pets or mounts. The animations from these can be used on other creatures

Got a caravan in there. We haven't really seen any of the ships yet, other than some distant ships in some small clip, if I recall. There's probably a good reason why they aren't developing the vehicles to the same extent as the animals.

Buildings in this game use modular pieces, so that things such as walls can be destroyed. I've seen things such as the banner from the kickstarter T3 freehold bundle in the battle royal. They could probably assemble the buildings together pretty fast once they get the pieces together.

For armor/costumes, I believe that we've seen Protector's Armor somewhere in a stream. Other than that, this area is lacking too. One thing to note is that the details on the armor can also be modular, so they can mix and match features together from the cosmetics to other armors, if they wanted to.

Edit: I found that one banner thing from APOC in an old image of mine. I guess I'll include that here too.

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