Level scaling and high level fights in low level areas (open world dungeons, etc).
FuryBladeborne
Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think that having immensely powerful characters for the area wiping out the content and fighting one another over low level areas will create an unexciting and irksome environment for leveling characters, both new players and alts.
A solution to the above problems is de-leveling characters. Now, de-leveling does not mean weak. I think characters that can one shot the strongest enemy in the area with their largest AOE while being invulnerable because the character only takes one damage from any attack is a design problem.
The results of reducing character level can be manipulated according to the goals of Intrepid. However, in my opinion if a max level character with high quality gear appropriate for character level drops a few tiers (i.e. a level 50 character drops to a level 10 or 20 area), then that character should be able to beat a few times the number of mobs that could be taken while leveling through the area at the correct level range (i.e. if the example character could have taken 2-3 mobs solo with a low amount of risk (perhaps losing 50%-80% of character life during the fight), then a de-leveled high level character could solo 6-9 of those mobs with about the same amount of risk).
In the above example, a high level player generally will not destroy the experience for players in the area. Additionally, even one character appropriate to the tier could put up a good fight if sufficiently skilled (particularly if both characters rely on the action combat for targeting) or if the rock-paper-scissors between the classes favors the lower level character. Regardless, a group of characters appropriate for the area probably cannot be griefed by just one max level character.
A solution to the above problems is de-leveling characters. Now, de-leveling does not mean weak. I think characters that can one shot the strongest enemy in the area with their largest AOE while being invulnerable because the character only takes one damage from any attack is a design problem.
The results of reducing character level can be manipulated according to the goals of Intrepid. However, in my opinion if a max level character with high quality gear appropriate for character level drops a few tiers (i.e. a level 50 character drops to a level 10 or 20 area), then that character should be able to beat a few times the number of mobs that could be taken while leveling through the area at the correct level range (i.e. if the example character could have taken 2-3 mobs solo with a low amount of risk (perhaps losing 50%-80% of character life during the fight), then a de-leveled high level character could solo 6-9 of those mobs with about the same amount of risk).
In the above example, a high level player generally will not destroy the experience for players in the area. Additionally, even one character appropriate to the tier could put up a good fight if sufficiently skilled (particularly if both characters rely on the action combat for targeting) or if the rock-paper-scissors between the classes favors the lower level character. Regardless, a group of characters appropriate for the area probably cannot be griefed by just one max level character.
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As Steven has stated, Ashes will not include level scaling because it largely negates the rewards of progression. I agree with this when scaling characters up. For example, in ESO (that is a generally great game in other ways) characters are scaled to max level at the start of the game. Leveling does not feel very satisfying and the world feels much less challenging.
MMO's suffer from content becoming ignored over time. Keeping low level content relevant as characters max out is difficult. The current plan for Ashes is to place additional content for high level characters in low level areas as nodes level up. This will keep higher characters moving through all areas of the game. The intent is that this will create community interaction and improve the activity of low level areas.
A problem with high level characters in low level areas is when high level characters start interacting with the areas, it destroys the experience for players in the correct area for their level range. If your trying to fight a boss or complete a quest and high level characters keep killing everything in one shot while being invulnerable, your probably not going to have an enjoyable time.
Another problem is open world dungeons. These dungeons are intended to cause PVP conflict for possession. What I see happening is that people are going to call their high level friends or guild members or get on their mains to fight over these dungeons. The result is, the mobs or bosses are probably getting wiped out by high level characters; and, low level players are most likely getting one shot during the PVP while having little or no impact on the situation. All of this totals into what is probably an unpleasant experience for the characters that should be leveling through the area.
The idea is that as nodes level, all the content adjusts. An area that is a low level area now will be a high level area with a different combination of node states.
Essentially, other than perhaps a small area around the starting portal, there is no content in Ashes that won't change in level. I would consider this to be uncommon.
I won't say that it won't happen, because it probably will. However, a player doing it will probably only do it once.
If you bring in a high level character to a low level situation, and then start PvP'ing, you are going to gain massive amounts of corruption. So much corruption that it won't take long before you are essentially ineffect in combat even against a level 1 character, and also have the bad fortune of dropping most or all of your gear when killed in PvP.
This player will also then find that they are unable to access their node for services until they have lost all corruption, which could be dozens of PvP deaths - each of which will cause an experience debt. This debt could take them weeks to work off if it is bad enough.
In terms of the idea in your OP, as far as I am aware, the developers are considering a system along these lines.
PvP one shot = corrupted = losing stuff, so no, high levels won't be going around one shotting people because the XP debt is just too high.
Also, there's gear durability. If you're killing stuff there must be a reason to get that money back. Repairing is not just gold, it requires mats.
The example Steven gave was in relation to a single node level, which will see the max level of content in that nodes ZoI go up by roughly 10 levels.
This will not produce the issue you are talking about.
There is no deleveling system, there is an experience debt system. The same system as in several other games.
This will be a massive deterrent to anyone not at max level, though it is yet to be seen what deterrent there will be for max level players in relation to experience. However, at that level, the gear deterrent becomes much more pronounced.
However, since we know that there will be level cap increases post launch, players will not want to accumulate too much experience debt at max level.
Your level and progressing it is the whole point of the genre, and minimizing or removing that dopamine hit at all with scaling content just feels awful and is detrimental to the long-term health and feel of the game.
I hope they stick to their 'no scaling' belief, because I agree strongly with it.
It is about experience debt if experience debt is one of the systems put in place to prevent the issue you are directly talking about.
You posted here with something you percieve may be an issue, and experience debt is one small part of one of the larger systems in play that should prevent the issue you are discussing here from occuring.
So yes, this thread is indeed in part about experience debt.
You may be perfectly correct. I don't know. However, I do think that high level characters are going to get involved in disputes over open world dungeons across the entire world. A system for de-leveling character to the upper end of the tier for the area would make those disputes much more fair to the characters that are actually in the area that they should be in for their level instead of having those characters be dominated by high levels and all PVE content in the area trivialized until the high level characters leave.
The fact that high level characters can kill low levels repeatedly and accumulate experience debt is a separate issue. I simply wanted to point out that a well made level scaling system can make the game more enjoyable. I am not sure that Steven Sherif has noticed that as he seems to comment on the problems with level scaling while increasing levels.
Since I am only talking about scaling down, you must really want to be able one shot every mob while only taking 1's from all attacks.
Sounds like a blast.
I think it could help more in Ashes due to the open world PVP and the fact that open world dungeons will be disputed with PVP.
The idea of scaling levels based on content is a thing they have already considered.
We don't know the decision they have made based on that, but we know that it has been something they have been considering for a long time.
What I am trying to do is point out to you that due to some small misunderstandings of game systems on your part, the issue that you see here won't ever be as bad as it could be in other games without those same systems in place - regardless of which way Intrepid decide to go on the matter.
Something to remember - this community has been going on for 3 years now, with discussions on almost any topic in relation to an MMO that one could concieve. Many of those discussions were initiated by Intrepid, including the one pertinent to this discussion.
Things like this have already been thought through.
If that's what he wants then that is also a valid opinion. One that makes sense, and is supported by ... the entire genre. Wanting to change peoples levels to make the game easier for you/your playstyle seems selfish to me.
If your opponent is higher level, lowing his level isn't "fair" ... It's unfair, by definition. If they have more XP, it's because they earned more XP, if they have better gear it's because they earned better gear. Taking those things away from other people so that you feel more comfortable that no one can have power over you is not a system I can imagine working in a game like this.
Play a game without levels if you want a game without levels.
If IS chooses to leave leveling as it is, then that is fine. I will still play. However, once characters fully outlevel an area, then that content is trivialized and will be ignored. This will probably make most of the content under the max level worthless to max level characters as it is in many other games.
A solution is to scale character level down. This does not mean make the character weak. I described level range suggestions in my OP. These changes essentially turn a character into a twink for the tier. Which is powerful, but does not fully trivialize the content. The twink is also very powerful against players playing in the correct area. However, the domination is not so extreme that characters with many levels over another will only take 1's in damage and one shot the lower player with any attack.
I realize that some players actually like to play with no challenge. Particularly in PVP. That does not mean that this game has to be designed in such a way even if other games have been.