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How possible would this be...

DimitraeosDimitraeos Member
edited July 2020 in General Discussion
Imagine an alliance that spanned the entire server which held control of each of the 5 metropolises that can exist at a given time on a given server. Imagine also they coordinate internally to develop at least 1 of each node type (scientific, militaristic, economic, religious etc). The purpose being to bring the maximum benefit to the server as a whole.

Hypothetically speaking, from what I can understand in terms of the game/node mechanics, would this be possible? And if so, without a doubt it would be a pretty titanic effort to maintain but just thought it would be an interesting take.
"Divinity is not just Love, Devotion or Purpose. Divinity is the hammer which we use to crush Corruption."
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Comments

  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2020
    Dimitraeos wrote: »
    Imagine an alliance that spanned the entire server which held control of each of the 5 metropolises that can exists at a given time on a given server. Imagine also they coordinate internally to develop at least 1 of each node type (scientific, militaristic, economic, religious etc). The purpose being to bring the maximum benefit to the server as a whole.

    Hypothetically speaking, from what I can understand in terms of the game/node mechanics, would this be possible? And if so, without a doubt it would be a pretty titanic effort to maintain but just thought it would be an interesting take.

    You would need about 7000 people who get along and agree on a leader to do that...if you think that will happen just turn on any news channel for about 5 min.
  • Cold 0ne FTBCold 0ne FTB Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There is also no guarantee that one metropolis wouldn't interfere with a particular resource that some classes or guilds would want. There is also no guarantee that that metropolis wouldn't provide a resource that certain guilds or classes would want. Maybe it's the only religious one or maybe it is the main crafting city. Whatever the case different players being at different points of progression will naturally create conflict as they try to progress.
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    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
  • It would be cool, at the very least, to see an opportunity for players to play peacemaker or diplomat between cities and factions rather than just, say, declaring war on every available opponent. Would be cool to see if getting people to work together or make peace could be just as rewarding as fighting. :)
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  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There is also no guarantee that one metropolis wouldn't interfere with a particular resource that some classes or guilds would want. There is also no guarantee that that metropolis wouldn't provide a resource that certain guilds or classes would want. Maybe it's the only religious one or maybe it is the main crafting city. Whatever the case different players being at different points of progression will naturally create conflict as they try to progress.

    And one they have everything from that associated raid they will want to open a different raid and not everyone will reach that point at the same time
  • Cold 0ne FTBCold 0ne FTB Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Aardvark wrote: »
    There is also no guarantee that one metropolis wouldn't interfere with a particular resource that some classes or guilds would want. There is also no guarantee that that metropolis wouldn't provide a resource that certain guilds or classes would want. Maybe it's the only religious one or maybe it is the main crafting city. Whatever the case different players being at different points of progression will naturally create conflict as they try to progress.

    And one they have everything from that associated raid they will want to open a different raid and not everyone will reach that point at the same time

    Exactly. This game is designed to create disparity. There will always be somebody that wants something somebody else has. It will make progression more rewarding. Still it will be interesting to see different guilds create alliances and to fight each other.
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    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
  • DimitraeosDimitraeos Member
    edited July 2020
    Fair points, definitely think it would be far fetched but theoretically the desire to then change/"rotate" node types could also be coordinated (with popular support within members of the alliance).

    Additionally, there would always be pressure from groups who weren't a part of the alliance that would create antagonism and drive more cooperation within the alliance to defend their project of a "world alliance".

    Basically the difficulty I see is 1: creating a cohesive enough alliance that could coordinate something like this and 2: defending the project from outside antagonists (while simultaneously managing the internal politics)
    "Divinity is not just Love, Devotion or Purpose. Divinity is the hammer which we use to crush Corruption."
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  • PlateauPlateau Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2023
    .
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  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    leonerdo wrote: »
    Dimitraeos wrote: »
    Fair points, definitely think it would be far fetched but theoretically the desire to then change/"rotate" node types could also be coordinated (with popular support within members of the alliance).

    Additionally, there would always be pressure from groups who weren't a part of the alliance that would create antagonism and drive more cooperation within the alliance to defend their project of a "world alliance".

    Basically the difficulty I see is 1: creating a cohesive enough alliance that could coordinate something like this and 2: defending the project from outside antagonists (while simultaneously managing the internal politics)

    Pretty much, yeah. I think large alliances will be fairly common in Ashes. But the question remains, how big will those alliances get? Certainly, we'll see some solid alliances built around a Metropolis, but they most likely will form because of the metropolis rather than the metropolis being built because of the alliance.

    Someone will probably attempt to create a larger empire (likely with the help of Twitch streamers). And yeah, keeping cohesion within such a large group will be the biggest challenge.

    Can't really speculate further than that. I for one, am quite interested in seeing how it plays out when the game launches. It's one of the major draws of the game, imo.

    Well one question will be will be guilds be raid groups x5 or will it be 200 of 1 class. The reason I bring this up is different classes are going to want a differnt type of node and you can only be a citizen of 1 node. And then there will also never be agreement on which think to build 1st in the node. And there will never be full agreement on who should be leader with the flying mount for that node.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Aardvark wrote: »
    leonerdo wrote: »
    Dimitraeos wrote: »
    Fair points, definitely think it would be far fetched but theoretically the desire to then change/"rotate" node types could also be coordinated (with popular support within members of the alliance).

    Additionally, there would always be pressure from groups who weren't a part of the alliance that would create antagonism and drive more cooperation within the alliance to defend their project of a "world alliance".

    Basically the difficulty I see is 1: creating a cohesive enough alliance that could coordinate something like this and 2: defending the project from outside antagonists (while simultaneously managing the internal politics)

    Pretty much, yeah. I think large alliances will be fairly common in Ashes. But the question remains, how big will those alliances get? Certainly, we'll see some solid alliances built around a Metropolis, but they most likely will form because of the metropolis rather than the metropolis being built because of the alliance.

    Someone will probably attempt to create a larger empire (likely with the help of Twitch streamers). And yeah, keeping cohesion within such a large group will be the biggest challenge.

    Can't really speculate further than that. I for one, am quite interested in seeing how it plays out when the game launches. It's one of the major draws of the game, imo.

    Well one question will be will be guilds be raid groups x5 or will it be 200 of 1 class. The reason I bring this up is different classes are going to want a differnt type of node and you can only be a citizen of 1 node. And then there will also never be agreement on which think to build 1st in the node. And there will never be full agreement on who should be leader with the flying mount for that node.

    You are absolutely correct that different classes will want different nodes, and this is the main reason that guilds won't want to restrict themselves to one node. It is in their members best interests - and thus the guilds best interests - if they spread themselves out over a cluster of nodes built up to city level around a metropolis.

    This is also a part of the reason guilds won't attempt to claim ownership of a single node - the guild needs a whole cluster to prosper. Attempting to claim ownership can't really be a thing until you can control and maintain a full cluster of nodes around a metropolis, which will onvolve thousands of players.

    ---

    Back to the OP's question, yeah, it would be possible.

    The thing is, as a metropolis ages, the rewards for taking it down go up. Combined with the fact that a change in node state means a change in content, any such alliance on a server wide scale will still want to siege nodes on occasion to facilitate both of the above.

    What you would then end up with is a server that functions basically the same as all other servers, just with a little less anamosity.

    So really, while this is theoretically possible, I don't see it being likely due to the need for 7000+ players cooperating, and even if it does happen, I don't see it being much of a detriment.
  • HazardNumberSevenHazardNumberSeven Member, Alpha Two
    Join as a spy.
  • JubilumJubilum Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter
    I'm sure this will happen on 1-2 servers but not on most. Just imagine if Goonswarm from Eve Online decided to take over a AoC server with 30K plus members not much you could do about it. If the Alliance was PVE centered I would even consider joining the server.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    jubilum wrote: »
    I'm sure this will happen on 1-2 servers but not on most. Just imagine if Goonswarm from Eve Online decided to take over a AoC server with 30K plus members not much you could do about it. If the Alliance was PVE centered I would even consider joining the server.

    One interesting thing, if a guild like them did come, they wouldn't last long.

    EVE is kind of designed around large alliances having no real reason to break up. Ashes gives these alliances all the reason in the world.
  • HazardNumberSevenHazardNumberSeven Member, Alpha Two
    I don't think guilds like that from EVE stand much of a chance in a game like Ashes of Creation.

    They tried to do similar things in other games I've played, and we pretty effortlessly tore them apart. Different games, different ways to play.
  • JubilumJubilum Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter
    edited July 2020
    I'm not really seeing how AoC would cause them to break up. If they agree to cooperate and give access to all content to everyone one in their alliance it would work out just fine for them. If anything it is harder in Eve to keep everyone in an alliance happy than in AoC. Corporations within alliances constantly bicker over the best/most lucrative solar systems. It takes very good leadership to keep everybody happy. Alliance leaders are constantly smoothing out conflict within the alliance. In Eve you can attack and destroy anyone at any time. I have personally killed players from the same alliance who had the nerve to enter our solar system and mine our astroids. From what i understand in AoC this is not an option, if another player is in a guild that is green with your guild you cant even target them.
  • Dimitraeos wrote: »
    Imagine an alliance that spanned the entire server which held control of each of the 5 metropolises that can exists at a given time on a given server. Imagine also they coordinate internally to develop at least 1 of each node type (scientific, militaristic, economic, religious etc). The purpose being to bring the maximum benefit to the server as a whole.

    Hypothetically speaking, from what I can understand in terms of the game/node mechanics, would this be possible? And if so, without a doubt it would be a pretty titanic effort to maintain but just thought it would be an interesting take.

    that would fall apart quickly.
  • HazardNumberSevenHazardNumberSeven Member, Alpha Two
    jubilum wrote: »
    I'm not really seeing how AoC would cause them to break up. If they agree to cooperate and give access to all content to everyone one in their alliance it would work out just fine for them. If anything it is harder in Eve to keep everyone in an alliance happy than in AoC. Corporations within alliances constantly bicker over the best/most lucrative solar systems. It takes very good leadership to keep everybody happy. Alliance leaders are constantly smoothing out conflict within the alliance. In Eve you can attack and destroy anyone at any time. I have personally killed players from the same alliance who had the nerve to enter our solar system and mine our astroids. From what i understand in AoC this is not an option, if another player is in a guild that is green with your guild you cant even target them.

    You can murder innocent players and gain corruption. I don't see why someone being in an allied guild will prevent you from doing the same. You will certainly be able to target them, because otherwise helping them would be very difficult.

    Humans are greedy and flawed. The bigger a group, the more chance for betrayal or division. Trust me, in games like this, Goonsquad fails miserably. I have beaten them time and time again, and my friends and I usually only muster together smaller tight-knit clans.

    They've said they want mechanics to allow betrayal and sabotage, we just don't know what those will be yet. Will have to wait and find out.
  • JubilumJubilum Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter
    Sorry, I'm just not convinced by your argument. i could still see something like this happening on a couple servers. Granted it will be rare but possible. If well planned and the guild leaders and mayors keep in constant communication and their players base is loyal it would be easy to accomplish with 30k players.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    jubilum wrote: »
    Sorry, I'm just not convinced by your argument. i could still see something like this happening on a couple servers. Granted it will be rare but possible. If well planned and the guild leaders and mayors keep in constant communication and their players base is loyal it would be easy to accomplish with 30k players.

    I mean, this may be the case, but I'm not seeing a down side to it.

    They have a full servers population playing a way they are all happy with.
  • HazardNumberSevenHazardNumberSeven Member, Alpha Two
    jubilum wrote: »
    Sorry, I'm just not convinced by your argument. i could still see something like this happening on a couple servers. Granted it will be rare but possible. If well planned and the guild leaders and mayors keep in constant communication and their players base is loyal it would be easy to accomplish with 30k players.

    Okay.
  • JubilumJubilum Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter

    I mean, this may be the case, but I'm not seeing a down side to it.

    They have a full servers population playing a way they are all happy with.[/quote]

    oh i have no problem with it at all I've even consider something similar to get around IS insistence of open world/non-consensual pvp. I have actually gone as far as putting a plan in writing on how this would work. It would take all the like minded players and guilds to come together and commit to such a utopia but it is possible.
  • jubilum wrote: »
    I mean, this may be the case, but I'm not seeing a down side to it.

    They have a full servers population playing a way they are all happy with.

    oh i have no problem with it at all I've even consider something similar to get around IS insistence of open world/non-consensual pvp. I have actually gone as far as putting a plan in writing on how this would work. It would take all the like minded players and guilds to come together and commit to such a utopia but it is possible.[/quote]

    I doubt that 30,000 people will agree with anything.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2020
    The only time I saw people get together in large numbers like that for long periods of time was in Aion back on Elyos Israphel in the first few years. We had a faction wide Alliance lead by this one guy, but it only worked for two reasons: 1) He was the top ranking player in the PvP ranking system consistently, and thus had massive power in sieges from the transform it gave him, not to mention top rank makes people listen to you, and 2) we won with elaborately organized sieges that he led against the Asmos consistently.

    So that wasn't really an alliance based on guilds/player agreeing to be nice to each other, as much as it was a militaristic style alliance entirely built on power earned. Because to be honest everybody hated him with a passion, but we let him lead us for I think years.

    I don't think a "Let's be friendly and take over the world" thing is going to work, here. People are going to argue either between or within guilds and it'll fall apart from normal drama.
  • HazardNumberSevenHazardNumberSeven Member, Alpha Two
    I look forward to dismantling any server-wide utopia that manifests on my server.
  • HazardNumberSevenHazardNumberSeven Member, Alpha Two
    If no one fights, nodes will not be able to advance and goodluck convincing no one to ever attack a caravan, because people are greedy.

    Not to mention all the betrayal mechanics that are likely to be put into the game, because the devs want to support intrigue and combat zerginess.
  • While I already acknowledged the difficulty and low likelihood of this happening, I think what some people contrary to the idea are missing is (and again, unless i'm misunderstanding the game mechanics) the members within this alliance would receive the benefit of the whole collective "rotating" nodes to allow for shared access to the various content tied to other nodes/node types.

    If an alliance like this is set up and democratic decision making is properly implemented so that all of the alliances members can impart their will onto the process, I don't see why this couldn't work.

    Especially given the fact that external antagonists like this will exist, hence driving the need to more cohesion to maintain the project:
    I look forward to dismantling any server-wide utopia that manifests on my server.

    I think if anything, the biggest threat to this kind of collaboration is what I just quoted, external forces. (And thats why this game has so much fucking emergent gameplay potential <3 )


    "Divinity is not just Love, Devotion or Purpose. Divinity is the hammer which we use to crush Corruption."
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