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No PvP gear
Marzzo
Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Currently, obtaining gear through PvP does not seem to be planned based on this quote from the wiki:
"Arena points that can be used to buy gear are not currently in the design"
But, there will be PvP gear enchantments based on your performance during a PvP season (6 months).
This means, Pure PvP gear progression, is in the form of unique PvP specific enchants instead of gear. These enchants will be awarded once every 6 months.
Gear, in AoC, broadly speaking, comes from PVE, Crafting and Quests. I will try to convince you why there should be an option to obain some gear in some form through PvP. It does not need to be full sets, nor does it have to be from only arenas.
Gear should not be exclusive to PvE content. It should be possible to aquire some gear through PvP, aswell as crafting, PvE and quests. I will list my arguments for this. Feel free to disagree and point out what I get wrong.
Arguments:
1. Some players, want to focus most of their time doing PvP. Currently, you will be punished gear wise for doing this. This system will severely handicap PvP focused players gear wise in comparison to players that focus on PvE. Since no gear comes from PvP, players that ignore PvP dont lose anything gear wise by ignoring it. In contrast to this, players who ignore PvE, won't be able to aquire gear effectivly creating an unfair situation. This will effectivly force the whole PvP community to play content they dont like. How would you feel, if the only way to get the best gear for PvE was to play PVP arenas? . Many PvP players will quit if they can't progress effectivly by doing their favourite content.
2. By not offering meaningful gear progression in PvP, people will eventually get bored and leave. I do understand that AoC offers meaningful PvP in the form of sieges, guild castles, caravans and arenas. But, if these systems don't reward you with gear, people won't care about them as much. Getting materials from caravans and sieges, is in now way a stable form of progression for most PvP players with limited time. But dungeons and raids is very viable for all types of players.
When you defeat a raid/dungeon boss, no matter how easy it is, you will be rewarded with gear and crafting materials. When you defeat the best players in the world in PvP, you only get meaningful upgrades in the form of enchants, EVERY 6 MONTHS, and crafting materials. This is not that interesting. Reaching high ranks in arenas and PvP requires insane dedication. Easility 5-8 hours a day of pure PvP. It is simply wrong to not offer a gear progression in combination with PvP gamplay that supports the way you wish to play.
3. It does not make a single difference for the game as a whole except making more people happier.
Most counter arguments say that offering gear progression in PvP will make people stay AFK queuing for arenas. This is silly. It's like saying offering PvE gear will make people AFK in instanced dungeons. To earn PvP gear in my system, you still need to play ashes exactly as intended.
Ashes has many forms of PvP that are open world, Caravans, sieges, guild wars, bounty hunting etc. All these activities ALREADY gives you PvP gear progression in the form of unique PvP enchants. The problem is, PvP enchants you get every 6 months is not meaniningful progression. It is boring.
4. By offering gear progression in PvP, you, as a PvE player, don't lose anything. PvPers will be happier, have more goals to work towards and will get rewarded for doing things they love. By not offering gear for PvP progression, PvP players, lose a lot. PVP players will still need to play PVE, and Craft! But they can also work towards a few pieces, for example a weapon or helm. Something matters. Getting rewarded with gear, is one of the most important factors in MMO:s. As with all things in life, stop thinking in black and white. Stuff is more complex than that. Instead of ONLY GEAR FROM PVE!!!. You could have a balance that we will reach with trial and error, patch after patch. We can only win from this. We can only lose from thinking black and white.
There is no reason why a player should not be able to aquire gear from PvE, PvP and crafting. Why lock every piece of gear progression behind PvE/crafting alone?
I am not saying PvP should offer best in slot in everything, but it should offer gear that is competitive with PvE/crafted gear. I don't even need for PvP gear to offer gear in every single slot, but atleast enough gear to make it feel like im doing progress doing what I love.
Solutions:
1. PvP activities should reward you atleast each and every month with different rewards as well as every 6 months for major rewards.
2. Doing PvP activity in any form should unlock recepies that can be used for gear. Especially for a weapon since that is what most people love working for.
3. Your arena rating, should either offer unlockable recepies for gear or COSMETIC variants of gear. This will visualize your progression which is EXTREMLY important for PvP players.
4. The amount of crafting materials you get from sieges, caravans and other relevant PvP activities should be fair. Dungeons and raids should not give exponatially larger amounts of resources.
Why?
A lot of players want to visualize their achivements. PvE players feel proud when they can use their
"Sword of the black dragon" they got from not standing in the fire while spamming 3 buttons and killing "The black dragon" for the 13th time this patch.
The problem comes when PvP players really cant visualize their achivments through their hard work in PvP.
Most PvP players dont want a weapon they got from killing a boss. They want a weapon they earned by being good in PvP, to show other people how far they have come in PvP. However, nothing stops a PvP player from earning weapons in PvE aswell.
Conclusion:
Since it does not harm the PvE community in any way, and since it does not change the way ashes is played in any single way. There should be a way to gain a gear recepies for specific PvP gear.
This gear should be visually different from it's PvE counterpart, and is there to reward and show your dedication to PvP, Exactly like Raid/dungeon gear is there for the same purpose.
"Arena points that can be used to buy gear are not currently in the design"
But, there will be PvP gear enchantments based on your performance during a PvP season (6 months).
This means, Pure PvP gear progression, is in the form of unique PvP specific enchants instead of gear. These enchants will be awarded once every 6 months.
Gear, in AoC, broadly speaking, comes from PVE, Crafting and Quests. I will try to convince you why there should be an option to obain some gear in some form through PvP. It does not need to be full sets, nor does it have to be from only arenas.
Gear should not be exclusive to PvE content. It should be possible to aquire some gear through PvP, aswell as crafting, PvE and quests. I will list my arguments for this. Feel free to disagree and point out what I get wrong.
Arguments:
1. Some players, want to focus most of their time doing PvP. Currently, you will be punished gear wise for doing this. This system will severely handicap PvP focused players gear wise in comparison to players that focus on PvE. Since no gear comes from PvP, players that ignore PvP dont lose anything gear wise by ignoring it. In contrast to this, players who ignore PvE, won't be able to aquire gear effectivly creating an unfair situation. This will effectivly force the whole PvP community to play content they dont like. How would you feel, if the only way to get the best gear for PvE was to play PVP arenas? . Many PvP players will quit if they can't progress effectivly by doing their favourite content.
2. By not offering meaningful gear progression in PvP, people will eventually get bored and leave. I do understand that AoC offers meaningful PvP in the form of sieges, guild castles, caravans and arenas. But, if these systems don't reward you with gear, people won't care about them as much. Getting materials from caravans and sieges, is in now way a stable form of progression for most PvP players with limited time. But dungeons and raids is very viable for all types of players.
When you defeat a raid/dungeon boss, no matter how easy it is, you will be rewarded with gear and crafting materials. When you defeat the best players in the world in PvP, you only get meaningful upgrades in the form of enchants, EVERY 6 MONTHS, and crafting materials. This is not that interesting. Reaching high ranks in arenas and PvP requires insane dedication. Easility 5-8 hours a day of pure PvP. It is simply wrong to not offer a gear progression in combination with PvP gamplay that supports the way you wish to play.
3. It does not make a single difference for the game as a whole except making more people happier.
Most counter arguments say that offering gear progression in PvP will make people stay AFK queuing for arenas. This is silly. It's like saying offering PvE gear will make people AFK in instanced dungeons. To earn PvP gear in my system, you still need to play ashes exactly as intended.
Ashes has many forms of PvP that are open world, Caravans, sieges, guild wars, bounty hunting etc. All these activities ALREADY gives you PvP gear progression in the form of unique PvP enchants. The problem is, PvP enchants you get every 6 months is not meaniningful progression. It is boring.
4. By offering gear progression in PvP, you, as a PvE player, don't lose anything. PvPers will be happier, have more goals to work towards and will get rewarded for doing things they love. By not offering gear for PvP progression, PvP players, lose a lot. PVP players will still need to play PVE, and Craft! But they can also work towards a few pieces, for example a weapon or helm. Something matters. Getting rewarded with gear, is one of the most important factors in MMO:s. As with all things in life, stop thinking in black and white. Stuff is more complex than that. Instead of ONLY GEAR FROM PVE!!!. You could have a balance that we will reach with trial and error, patch after patch. We can only win from this. We can only lose from thinking black and white.
There is no reason why a player should not be able to aquire gear from PvE, PvP and crafting. Why lock every piece of gear progression behind PvE/crafting alone?
I am not saying PvP should offer best in slot in everything, but it should offer gear that is competitive with PvE/crafted gear. I don't even need for PvP gear to offer gear in every single slot, but atleast enough gear to make it feel like im doing progress doing what I love.
Solutions:
1. PvP activities should reward you atleast each and every month with different rewards as well as every 6 months for major rewards.
2. Doing PvP activity in any form should unlock recepies that can be used for gear. Especially for a weapon since that is what most people love working for.
3. Your arena rating, should either offer unlockable recepies for gear or COSMETIC variants of gear. This will visualize your progression which is EXTREMLY important for PvP players.
4. The amount of crafting materials you get from sieges, caravans and other relevant PvP activities should be fair. Dungeons and raids should not give exponatially larger amounts of resources.
Why?
A lot of players want to visualize their achivements. PvE players feel proud when they can use their
"Sword of the black dragon" they got from not standing in the fire while spamming 3 buttons and killing "The black dragon" for the 13th time this patch.
The problem comes when PvP players really cant visualize their achivments through their hard work in PvP.
Most PvP players dont want a weapon they got from killing a boss. They want a weapon they earned by being good in PvP, to show other people how far they have come in PvP. However, nothing stops a PvP player from earning weapons in PvE aswell.
Conclusion:
Since it does not harm the PvE community in any way, and since it does not change the way ashes is played in any single way. There should be a way to gain a gear recepies for specific PvP gear.
This gear should be visually different from it's PvE counterpart, and is there to reward and show your dedication to PvP, Exactly like Raid/dungeon gear is there for the same purpose.
1
Comments
Not quite.
When you bring down a kingdom or node, you get a portion of the resources that were stored at that node. Same as when you kill a player, or sack a caravan.
You get the point. The example you quoted might happen 2-3 times in 6 months. It is not a reliable progressions path. It is actually not a progression path at all.
Killing a player or sacking a caravan might only happen 2-3 times in 6 months?
What, is the playerbase only gonna be 50 people?
There are going to be caravans literally daily on the server. Every time you succeed in taking down the caravan you get a portion of the resources. You can also get paid large sums of gold to protect the caravans. They have mentioned that crafted gear will be just as good as pve dungeon and raid gear. All you need to do is make gold and resources through the pvp options and then pay a crafter to make you stuff. Yes there is an extra step of having to work with crafters but thats the point of an MMO. Having to depend on your community to help get you to the top.
When you look at something like wow, where you can gear through bg's/arenas you are basically playing a moba at that point, just a que simulator.
With a system where gear is acquired through pve/crafting it creates an economy and a need for each other and a true community. PvE players will need us for protection etc as we will need them for crafting. I think a balanced game that encourages players to engage in so many different aspects of the game adds to much more longevity imo too.
On the point you made of taking down a kingdom and getting nothing, in the interviews Steven did with Asmongold/summit and shroud you actually take goods/materials, the same for caravan pvp ( with some sinks in both scenarios)
I love these "I HAVE SSSSSPOKEN!" Posts.
The game is set as PVX and should remain that way. They have set up that the crafters will build the best gear. Giving cosmetics seems the best answer for this type of game play. I don't think PVP even offers XP.
Currently, there is not a single possible way to obtain a single gear piece by doing PvP. That is not PvX. They have set up that crafting COMBINED with PvE will create the best gear. This is still not PvX.
Tell me, what is so hard for you when it comes to some people obtaining gear from PvE, crafting and PvP? What do we lose by offering some gear OPTIONALLY from PvP?
What do we lose from offering every thing you said, in combination with the OPTION to ALSO get some gear from PvP?
Less Community interaction
If its via pvp that require ques then less activity in the world as you just sit in a city until you get your pop.
Just two points off the top of my head.
If people can get gear from arenas then the arenas will actually get used and draw pvp away from open world. The lack of any reason to go in the arenas is clearly ment to keep people doing open world pvp.
I also hope they will give the arenas rewards to make people want to do them as I much prefer 2 groups of people wanting to fight and ready to fight over 1 group pestering the crap out of a group trying to quest.
This totally defeats the purpose of their vision and every single one of our visions for a game which encompasses all of these amazing systems. I for one am more than happy to just have some sort of cosmetic reward for placing highly in rated PvP, cosmetic rewards work in every single other game that use this reward structure and some only give you the satisfaction of being able to display the fact that you're high rated and that's enough for their players.
If you want gear by means of PvP, you can hunt corrupted players and take their equipment or destroy player caravans for gold to buy crafting reagents. This opinion is insanely single-minded and is totally the opposite of what you said, listening to this is a loss and ignoring this is a win.
That is true. But the same goes the other way around. By offering only gear in PvE/Crafting you draw people away from PvP arenas (you know, some people actually want to focus on that).
There is no reason, why open world PvP cant offer progression of some kind.
Maybe a mercenary guild that offers rewards based on caravans defended/assaulted?
My ideal system, would be that some gear alternatives could be offered in PvP in combination with the standard gear from crafting and PvE. For example, maybe 30-40% of your gear. Or maybe even just weapons, chest, shoulders and legs.
The point is, gear progression is crucial in an MMO and people love it and it motivates them. By that logic, offering some form of gear progression from PvP will increase incentives to PvP WHILE STILL NOT hurting incentives to do PvE.
This is true PvX, a system where gear comes from PvE, crafting AND PVP.
If they made the only thing you could get from it a nice weapon or coin it would do 0 of the things you are worried about and still make them fun and worth doing
Not true in a single way. I have not explained the system I have in mind. All im saying is that I want PvP gear progression in one form. Are you interested in me giving an example of how such a system could look?
Instead of pretending like you have a reasonable answer for this, to get gear from PvP progression in a world where gear is not soulbound and would diminish other gear and give you an infinite source of gold from selling on this gear then please do enlighten us.
All of the systems are connected. If you can get gear through just killing in PvP you're not feeding the wheel of AoC.
Where is your interaction coming from then? You just queue into arenas, get gear and become better?
AoC is PvX, all of the systems are interconnected.
If you want gear you need other people:
1- gear is mostly crafted, so you will need someone to craft it
2- to craft that gear someone needs to process raw materials
3- to process raw materials you need gatherers
So yeah, no pvp gear from just farming an arena
Steven has said that there will be pvp progression in terms of pvp specific gems that you can only get through gaining certain pvp ratings. So there will be pvp specific item progression. It just wont be in terms of full armor and weapon items all of which you can get a crafter to make for you. Yes there will be some items exclusive to PvE players just like there will be some gems that are exclusive to pvp players. This is how it should be because it encourages people to play all facets of the game while not forcing it. You may not be able to get the 1 cool PvE only sword that a Raider may get but instead you will have some exclusive gem effects that they will never have.
Never said the gear needs to come from arenas.
If that is the case, I rest my case. Where can I read about that?
Not to be rude, but do you really think that way of thinking isn't dumb? If you're saying that gold farmers are going to diminish everything anyway then what is the point of you even contributing or playing this game? Using that pessimistic train of thought that you're going down, you're basically just shitting on the core systems of the game.
So you effectively disagree with things not being soulbound and you disagree with the top gear being crafted.
Do you seriously think gold will have any real value in this game? Please, basic economic knowledge will give you infinite cash in an MMO. In every MMO I have ever played (rs3, wow, eso, ff) I always had enough gold to buy every single thing I wanted x10. Every serious PvE/PvP player will have millions and millions of gold.
Also, getting gear from PVP should be equaly as hard as getting gear from PVE
Then why are you complaining about not getting gear rewards in PvP if you're already going to have gold cap and have maximised gear that you've bought from other players?
In this interview at. The part about pvp gear starts at around 15:11
Nope I disagree with the only thing you need to get the best gear being gold. I am a very big beliver in earning your gear. They could easily make it to where top level gear all needs 1 piece of soul bound mat to craft it on top of the other stuff so that you must actually do something anything to earn the ability to have the rest of the pieces added to it to craft it.
This is not for me. I will have the best gear in the game anyways, since I do the hardest PvP and PvE content.
The systems I want, supports the players that love PvP and only have 1-2 hours 3-4 days a week of gameplay. These players cant play PvE. And they want to log in and do what they love. If PvP is what they love, and they cant participate in PvE (which always require mulitple 3+ hours sessions) they will have no way of competing gear wise.
Thank you
np
lets use your wow example...
1) There are so many gold farmers and people buying gold in wow its like a plague so clearly your experience there is not the standard
2) all the best stuff is BoP meaning you can't buy it with gold, if you could I can't even imagine how bad the farmers would be. (haven't been there in a few years things might have changed)