Replace Item decay with RNG Craft

Makosi

Hiya forum

Updated! It has now became obvious that RNG craft is not beneficial to anything if there is item decay, so this post is now a pitch to replace item decay in favour of RNG craft.

All of below must be read with idea that there is no item decay and durability remains at 100%

What concerns me a little is the lack of "RNG" in crafting, let me explain my point and mayhaps you will see what I mean and even consider it being an interesting part of the game.

See currently it is said that there won't be RNG in crafting and I think it can actually be fun to have RNG in crafting, here is my vision for the grand design:

Say I decide to make my character be an artisan and say an armor smith, say there are 10 possible crafting levels, at level 1 I can craft basic gear and level 10 I can craft epic gear, so far so good right? So then say on level 1 I can craft level 1 gear (or its equivalent) with 100% chance and maybe 5% chance to have it with some sort of extra bonus like its "masterfully" crafted so i get some tiny bonus, but at same time I am able to craft level 2 gear but with 66% success rate or something like that and maybe level 3 gear with 33% success rate and 0% chance for "master craft". Now as I level up my smithing skill I get to level 2 craft and now I can craft level 2 armors and such with 90% chance of success and level 3 with 66% and level 4 with 33% chance and so on until the level 10 or whatever max level will be.

The fun part here is that at level 10 I should NOT have 100% chance to craft best gear in the game, say best gear in game is like level 12 so I should only be at around 60% chance to craft the main body of the armor and perhaps at 70% chance to craft the helm/ boots / gloves / jewels. with say 10% chance of master craft items, after all I am on top level crafting.

It is also worth pointing out that because of the drops and auction house it is likely that it will be cheaper to just buy the gear outright rather than to craft it, so for those who are not interested in this gamble there is a 100% chance to get the gear in Auction house, so implementing this system won't really take away from players who hate it.

For the rest of players who like to gamble his would do wonders - not only it's end game grind to get mats to attempt crafts but also a great money / resource sink + always ensure that top level crafters are required in community. You can be master crafter in 1 skill right, so being able to fail your crafts will keep such masters in high demand, will promote social aspect of the game, will encourage people with best gear in the game to still try to craft more for that little chance of getting the master crafted item and finally the most importantly, if this is not implemented then once players get their top gear there will be no need for the artisans again. Like if I have my dragon gods armor or, you know, something epic i don't need to craft another i don't care for crafters anymore...

I really feel that this will make the game much more epic and hey grind is already part of any mmorpg, might as well grind for the gear right? Plus obviously there is a chance that raid bosses will drop the full items as well, but again because these full items are dropped they are not master crafted so it will drive the community to attempt to craft gear even if it's not 100% chance.

I think it's a win win. Maybe this could even replace the need for the item decay system as if all the high tier craftsmen do is repair gear constantly it might get old real soon. RNG keeps things exciting.

To add some consolation for failed crafts, perhaps a portion of resources could still be salvaged or some temporary % increase for the next craft of the same item. Obviously you will iron out all the finer points but this is a high level design of how I think crafting would have been made epic!

let's discuss.

Songcaller

No. Items decay. Items break. If items also break in crafting from RNG there won't be enough items to cater to the ever increasing demand. Resources will be precious, and, a master craftsmen would very rarely destroy what they are creating. Simply put, a master craftsmen should in no way be faced with RNG.

I agree with RNG in over-enchanting. I think Magic can potentially go wrong. I don't agree with RNG in crafting.

Lincoln Hawk

RNG in gear progession is a big yikes tbh.

You are already dealing with the rng of drops in forms of materials and actual gear, think thats enough.

Winterpyre

I think between RNG drops, Item Decay, Item repair costing the resources the item was made of, artisan level requirements and facility requirements that dropping the rng in item outcome is fine.

yes, there might be potential for people being able to buy everything off the market but the price should reflect its value. People may under price their goods and you make a quick buck but there is not much to be done about that, It's just a bad/uninformed deal on the part of the selling player(s).

Also from what I've seen from the interview videos, and I may be mistaken, Artisan level in a skill is also not an easy thing to achieve.

Amel

I dont what youre proposing simply because if they add that kind of rng where it can proc with better stats, in the end game when youre trying to craft your gear, everytime you dont get the extra stats proc, you will consider it a failure and youre going to hate it.

Makosi

Ideally item decay would be removed in favour of RNG Craft. So have another look with no item decay in mind.

Songcaller

RNG is a stain. RNG is a silly mechanism. We have RNG in over-enchanting and RNG in combat (Last I heard). I think its enough RNG. Older games didn't have RNG. RNG is a false mechanism to keep markets lively. Ashes has other methods to keep markets lively.

Alizee

Agreed, you can still have RNG in crafting even if your item breaks, it's not like your item's stat lines break, also min-maxing is healthy for endgame damage scaling, or else it becomes very dull after you complete your set, it's good to know you can always improve that much more (seeing what you rolled/etc is part of what makes mmo's fun).

Makosi

Neurath wrote: »

RNG is a stain. RNG is a silly mechanism. We have RNG in over-enchanting and RNG in combat (Last I heard). I think its enough RNG. Older games didn't have RNG. RNG is a false mechanism to keep markets lively. Ashes has other methods to keep markets lively.

RNG is live, RNG is love! Without RNG is like food without flavour! Everything must be RNG, MORE RNG

HazardNumberSeven

Alizee wrote: »

Agreed, you can still have RNG in crafting even if your item breaks, it's not like your item's stat lines break, also min-maxing is healthy for endgame damage scaling, or else it becomes very dull after you complete your set, it's good to know you can always improve that much more (seeing what you rolled/etc is part of what makes mmo's fun).

"complete your set" .. ?

Alizee

hazardnumberseven wrote: »

Alizee wrote: »

Agreed, you can still have RNG in crafting even if your item breaks, it's not like your item's stat lines break, also min-maxing is healthy for endgame damage scaling, or else it becomes very dull after you complete your set, it's good to know you can always improve that much more (seeing what you rolled/etc is part of what makes mmo's fun).

"complete your set" .. ?

If it's not RNG, it will most likely be crafting sets, in other words having set stat lines on a set piece of gear that is most likely part of a complete set of armor (outside of weapons)

HazardNumberSeven

Alizee wrote: »

hazardnumberseven wrote: »

Alizee wrote: »

Agreed, you can still have RNG in crafting even if your item breaks, it's not like your item's stat lines break, also min-maxing is healthy for endgame damage scaling, or else it becomes very dull after you complete your set, it's good to know you can always improve that much more (seeing what you rolled/etc is part of what makes mmo's fun).

"complete your set" .. ?

If it's not RNG, it will most likely be crafting sets, in other words a set stat lines on a set piece of gear that is most likely part of a complete set of armor (outside of weapons)

Ah, okay. Thanks.

Chuba

I do believe that if RNG was included in the crafting system, it would make it a tad bit more fun and rewarding when you do manage to craft the item, however, it could only work if the item decay system is completely removed from the game. I'd also be fine with it as I do not lose all of my materials used for crafting. I like this idea.

Makosi

Chuba wrote: »

I do believe that if RNG was included in the crafting system, it would make it a tad bit more fun and rewarding when you do manage to craft the item, however, it could only work if the item decay system is completely removed from the game. I'd also be fine with it as I do not lose all of my materials used for crafting. I like this idea.

You get it! Yes item decay does not appeal to me as interesting mechanism at all. So you need to find gear, then break it and then fix your existing gear? Silly, silly.... Much better is to try and craft said gear without 100% chance so that it feels as achievement to get it! And once you get it, it's yours! No delays in raids to wait for everyone to fix their gear, no early quitting the siege because "ah look we are losing and i don't want to have my gear decay even more in this losing battle so i will just quit." What sense of achievement is there in maintaining your gear? Now crafting something you've been grinding for, for a week and succeeding in it, now that's an achievement!

Songcaller

RNG would make some Legendary Crafted items more Legendary than other Legendries. It is a feat to build a Legendary item in the first place. Ya'll are nuts if you want to increase the difficulty of creating Legendries with RNG. Sometimes you don't know when you've got it good. You won't be creating Legendries very often - if at all, yet you want RNG to limit it even further. Sounds like madness to me.

Makosi

Neurath wrote: »

RNG would make some Legendary Crafted items more Legendary than other Legendries. It is a feat to build a Legendary item in the first place. Ya'll are nuts if you want to increase the difficulty of creating Legendries with RNG. Sometimes you don't know when you've got it good. You won't be creating Legendries very often - if at all, yet you want RNG to limit it even further. Sounds like madness to me.

Okay you got your legendary, it has decayed to only 10 durability and you can't use it because now you need another legendary to break it, to get materials to fix your first legendary. Having a gear that you can not use is the real madness! If you achieved something then it's yours to show everyone, not to hide in closet and wear once on a special occasion...

Songcaller

Are you aware that in life, the finest crafted items were for ceremonial purposes? I mean most people used Spears and not Swords in actual combat, would you love Swords to be removed too? We don't know how difficult it is to acquire Legendary Materials, RNG would make it a nightmare, you'd be farming so much extra to find the *right* legendary to repair your legendary, because, some fool decided RNG would be a good addition to the crafting system and now your options are so narrow you'll probably not use your Legendary at all.

HazardNumberSeven

RNG sucks ogre balls.

Makosi

hazardnumberseven wrote: »

RNG sucks ogre balls.

Well so does the item decay and this guy "Neurath" with his off topic nonsense, but here we are...

Songcaller

If you love RNG, go and play BDO. Ashes is designed from old MMOs and the older MMOs were much better for crafters. It is enough for a crafter to obtain a recipe (You won't always have access to all recipes) and to find a recipe first (Own the blueprint for the recipe and get royalties), which makes RNG completely pointless. There are no benefits of RNG, except to get slapped in the face after you've done all of the *hard* work, and RNG effectively says *Computer says no*.

Makosi

Yes ofcourse you will need to find recipes first, that's self explanatory, they just shouldn't be 100% success rate is all. They should also offer a chance for a mastercraft or call it whatever you want that will increase or perhaps add some bonus to the gear and that would be good. Benefits are the resource sink and extra grind, grind is the core of all mmorpgs after all. I'll update the main post to point out that this is effectively suggestion to replace item decay with RNG craft, as indeed having both in place would be too much.

HazardNumberSeven

What if only a master had no chance of failure? Is that an acceptable compromise for people?

Not that we need one. No RNG sounds perfect to me!

Makosi

hazardnumberseven wrote: »

What if only a master had no chance of failure? Is that an acceptable compromise for people?

Not that we need one. No RNG sounds perfect to me!

yes ofcourse, no fail rate for say level 7/8ish gear on your max level crafter out of 10 (12 being epic) so that end game gear NEVER has a 100% chance of success.....

Songcaller

The main issue is Item Decay means you can't always use your best items (Unless you can repair said items). If we add in RNG and Mastercraft items without Decay then everyone will just shun the non-master crafted items and just use the ultimate items (Whatever the best RNG can be) and we'd be in a situation in which crafters would eventually be shunned. If I approach a crafter and say 'I want The Sword of Jeff - What do I need to collect?' then I collect the resources and approach the crafter, if the crafter then makes me 'The Sword of Shame' and not 'The Sword of Jeff' I'd be completely unhappy and would expect my money returned. If you want to be an 'unreliable' crafter then fine, most crafters however will want to earn money, not refund money.

phdmonster

The way itemization works there is only a little bit of room for RNG and that has already been mentioned by Steveo..

There will be enchanting, sockets and so on. Enchanting can fail if i remember correctly.

That being said, adding RNG success rate to item recipes will be quite bad for the game since most items will come from crafting in any stage of the user experience.

Makosi

Neurath wrote: »

The main issue is Item Decay means you can't always use your best items (Unless you can repair said items). If we add in RNG and Mastercraft items without Decay then everyone will just shun the non-master crafted items and just use the ultimate items (Whatever the best RNG can be) and we'd be in a situation in which crafters would eventually be shunned. If I approach a crafter and say 'I want The Sword of Jeff - What do I need to collect?' then I collect the resources and approach the crafter, if the crafter then makes me 'The Sword of Shame' and not 'The Sword of Jeff' I'd be completely unhappy and would expect my money returned. If you want to be an 'unreliable' crafter then fine, most crafters however will want to earn money, not refund money.

Dude you say good things and complete nonsense in same post it's amazing. Lets take your good bits out and ignore the rest. This is correct: The main issue is Item Decay means you can't always use your best items (Unless you can repair said items). If we add in RNG and Mastercraft items without Decay then everyone will just shun the non-master crafted items and just use the ultimate items But because the chance for master crafted item is like 10% and there is no guarantee that even normal craft will succeed, getting these mastercrafted items will be the most epic achievement, the drive behind the grind, the constant need for crafters to try and craft the "lucky" craft. There is no refund no crafting wrong thing, what are you on about. Crafter opens his store and offers to craft any of these 100 items, you come to this store and you click on what you want to craft and game decides if its fail, success or mastercrafted, nothing a crafter himself can influence. Crafter gets his money either way everything is automated and YOU make the click not the crafter does it for you and then tells it fails. Just think with your good side, don't venture into the crazy side and we will get along just fine.

HazardNumberSeven

phdmonster wrote: »

The way itemization works there is only a little bit of room for RNG and that has already been mentioned by Steveo

Songcaller

There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.

Makosi

phdmonster wrote: »

The way itemization works there is only a little bit of room for RNG and that has already been mentioned by Steveo..

There will be enchanting, sockets and so on. Enchanting can fail if i remember correctly.

That being said, adding RNG success rate to item recipes will be quite bad for the game since most items will come from crafting in any stage of the user experience.

This is off topic, let me explain why. I am not suggesting to change drop tables, or item drop rates or anything else to do with itemization. Currently without RNG craft you would still need to get same resources as you would need to get for RNG craft, none of that will change, all that remains same, what I propose is to remove item decay in favour of RNG craft (where you would still need to get same items for crafts, just success rate would not be 100%)

HazardNumberSeven

Nah, item decay sounds sick. I can't wait!

Songcaller

OMG. How are you not registering what I am saying. I would literally not go and approach a Crafter if the success rate is not 100%. There are no Auction Houses except in Economic Nodes (Two Metropolis can link). You can only open shops in Economic Nodes and places will be limited. Do you really want to be limited in such a way as the least amount of people possible will ever purchase what you create? You keep saying I'm off topic but I'm discussing the crafting elements!

RNG is not a good idea for Ashes of Creation - If it was a good idea The Devs would have probably copied the RNG Systems, they are not beyond using good ideas, therefore it becomes even clearer to me that RNG is not a good idea for ashes - not that I think its a good idea at all.