The way itemization works there is only a little bit of room for RNG and that has already been mentioned by Steveo..
There will be enchanting, sockets and so on. Enchanting can fail if i remember correctly.
That being said, adding RNG success rate to item recipes will be quite bad for the game since most items will come from crafting in any stage of the user experience.
This is off topic, let me explain why. I am not suggesting to change drop tables, or item drop rates or anything else to do with itemization. Currently without RNG craft you would still need to get same resources as you would need to get for RNG craft, none of that will change, all that remains same, what I propose is to remove item decay in favour of RNG craft (where you would still need to get same items for crafts, just success rate would not be 100%)
No item decay will just leave a bunch of unused items around in the world that will have no value. It means the whole 'repair my items and need materials to do that' goes away and they have to change a lot of how the economy and crafting system and how they work. I am just saying, it won't happen.
As i said in my first reply, there is already a minimal amount of rng but it is suplementary because of how artisans are meant to interact with each other and how the developers envision the economy to work.
There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.
Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft
RNG means there is no involvement from you so why would I approach you? If you can not, I repeat, *CAN NOT* guarantee what I want then you will not be approached. I'd find other ways to achieve it.
There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.
Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft
No, you can master all professions under an Artisan Path (Gathering, Processing, Crafting). It takes a lot of time, but you can do it. That information is on the wikipedia pages for the game.
The way itemization works there is only a little bit of room for RNG and that has already been mentioned by Steveo..
There will be enchanting, sockets and so on. Enchanting can fail if i remember correctly.
That being said, adding RNG success rate to item recipes will be quite bad for the game since most items will come from crafting in any stage of the user experience.
This is off topic, let me explain why. I am not suggesting to change drop tables, or item drop rates or anything else to do with itemization. Currently without RNG craft you would still need to get same resources as you would need to get for RNG craft, none of that will change, all that remains same, what I propose is to remove item decay in favour of RNG craft (where you would still need to get same items for crafts, just success rate would not be 100%)
No item decay will just leave a bunch of unused items around in the world that will have no value. It means the whole 'repair my items and need materials to do that' goes away and they have to change a lot of how the economy and crafting system and how they work. I am just saying, it won't happen.
As i said in my first reply, there is already a minimal amount of rng but it is suplementary because of how artisans are meant to interact with each other and how the developers envision the economy to work.
Well as you level up and find / craft better gear you sell your old one in auction house. The whole grind for craft comes at the endgame, until then there is no point in crafting just go to auction house to buy someones elses stuff... Once players hit level ceiling then crafting is the next best thing. What will be next best thing currently with item decay? Constant requirement to grind to find items to fix my ever breaking items?
RNG means there is no involvement from you so why would I approach you? If you can not, I repeat, *CAN NOT* guarantee what I want then you will not be approached. I'd find other ways to achieve it.
Think about end game only, there is either 30 people raid for some epic boss to drop an item you want or there is a craft. Say boss respawn is once every 24+- 6 hours, so that's 12 hour window you need to be awake/ available and ready (with a team) to get it and then RB drop rate is not 100% either and its 29 others like you wanting same item. Crafting my friend is the way to get what you want but it must NOT be 100% chance
The way itemization works there is only a little bit of room for RNG and that has already been mentioned by Steveo..
There will be enchanting, sockets and so on. Enchanting can fail if i remember correctly.
That being said, adding RNG success rate to item recipes will be quite bad for the game since most items will come from crafting in any stage of the user experience.
This is off topic, let me explain why. I am not suggesting to change drop tables, or item drop rates or anything else to do with itemization. Currently without RNG craft you would still need to get same resources as you would need to get for RNG craft, none of that will change, all that remains same, what I propose is to remove item decay in favour of RNG craft (where you would still need to get same items for crafts, just success rate would not be 100%)
No item decay will just leave a bunch of unused items around in the world that will have no value. It means the whole 'repair my items and need materials to do that' goes away and they have to change a lot of how the economy and crafting system and how they work. I am just saying, it won't happen.
As i said in my first reply, there is already a minimal amount of rng but it is suplementary because of how artisans are meant to interact with each other and how the developers envision the economy to work.
Well as you level up and find / craft better gear you sell your old one in auction house. The whole grind for craft comes at the endgame, until then there is no point in crafting just go to auction house to buy someones elses stuff... Once players hit level ceiling then crafting is the next best thing. What will be next best thing currently with item decay? Constant requirement to grind to find items to fix my ever breaking items?
Well, yes, kinda constant grind either by you or other players to find the materials you need to repair an item. If you are a crafter you can't mine or process it and vice versa if you are one of the other 2. If the game depended on RNG to craft those items, then at some point everyone who needed those items will have them whereas with a decay system, if you can't be bothered to get those materials either by gathering or processing, you will eventually lose that item or you will be unable to use it because it's at 0 durability.
I see where you are coming from. The way they envision the economy and the game dynamic is different though, so an RNG system won't really work.
You are already dealing with the rng of drops in forms of materials and actual gear, think thats enough.
This pretty mutch.
RNG Ruined crafting for me in black desert.
I hated how mutch time i spend gathering the materials only to have them wast on some dice roll.
You are already dealing with the rng of drops in forms of materials and actual gear, think thats enough.
This pretty mutch.
RNG Ruined crafting for me in black desert.
I hated how mutch time i spend gathering the materials only to have them wast on some dice roll.
So please no RNG in crafting.
I remember trying to craft items in L2 and failing. The game being such a grind in every aspect.
0
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Don't people normally hate RNG in games?
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Well, yes, kinda constant grind either by you or other players to find the materials you need to repair an item. If you are a crafter you can't mine or process it and vice versa if you are one of the other 2. If the game depended on RNG to craft those items, then at some point everyone who needed those items will have them whereas with a decay system, if you can't be bothered to get those materials either by gathering or processing, you will eventually lose that item or you will be unable to use it because it's at 0 durability.
I see where you are coming from. The way they envision the economy and the game dynamic is different though, so an RNG system won't really work.
The rarer the item, the more the demand the more the players are interested in it the more PVP! And for open world game it could be quite the benefit really. Would be good to get an actual reply from someone from design team and share their philosophy on item decay and non rng craft and what end game will be all about. I still don't like the idea of breaking stuff to fix stuff, id much rather grind for something and fail to craft it, than to break it on purpose.
Yeah and also hate challenges and hate grind and hate pvp and hate real graphics and hate cartoony graphics, hate wow, hate l2...ah man where do even stop. One thing is for sure though devs should never try to please everyone, that is a recipe for a fail as people will always be unhappy. Me, for example, i hate the idea of decay and love idea of RNG Craft.
Yeah and also hate challenges and hate grind and hate pvp and hate real graphics and hate cartoony graphics, hate wow, hate l2...ah man where do even stop. One thing is for sure though devs should never try to please everyone, that is a recipe for a fail as people will always be unhappy. Me, for example, i hate the idea of decay and love idea of RNG Craft.
No, crafting is going to be recipe-based and have minimal RNG (currently the only RNG involved is when you start over enchanting gear).
Item decay is required to keep the crafting economy in motion. If gear never needs to be repaired or replaced, crafting becomes an unviable playstyle, and IS want it to be genuinely rewarding to master artisan classes.
0
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.
Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft
No, you can master all professions under an Artisan Path (Gathering, Processing, Crafting). It takes a lot of time, but you can do it. That information is on the wikipedia pages for the game.
Players must choose a path in the artisan skill tree for each character.[28] Within each of the three parent artisan paths (Gathering, Processing and Crafting) there are different professions. A character may only ever master one of these paths.[29][30]
Not quite
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.
Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft
No, you can master all professions under an Artisan Path (Gathering, Processing, Crafting). It takes a lot of time, but you can do it. That information is on the wikipedia pages for the game.
Players must choose a path in the artisan skill tree for each character.[28] Within each of the three parent artisan paths (Gathering, Processing and Crafting) there are different professions. A character may only ever master one of these paths.[29][30]
Not quite
Given it says directly in that quote that you can master an artisan path, I’d say you probably should read that wiki again.
Go look at the live-streams, there’s one that specifically mentioned players would be able to master the entire path given enough time and dedication. Personally I wouldn’t allow that, but I don’t get the final say there.
0
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yeah and also hate challenges and hate grind and hate pvp and hate real graphics and hate cartoony graphics, hate wow, hate l2...ah man where do even stop. One thing is for sure though devs should never try to please everyone, that is a recipe for a fail as people will always be unhappy. Me, for example, i hate the idea of decay and love idea of RNG Craft.
Mate, I play tabletop games all the time I love and hate RNG I was just commenting on peoples view
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
0
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Master 1 path not all paths. They don't want people being self sufficient. They want player interaction. Having 1 toon that can do everything would break the economy.
Item decay is designed to remove items from the game in late games stages. If you get an item and never have to replace it the crafters eventually run out of stuff to build.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.
Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft
That sounds EXACTLY like what the devs said they want to avoid. They want to increase interaction, not kill it off. I mean, there is a reason they are going without dungeon finder.
There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.
Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft
No, you can master all professions under an Artisan Path (Gathering, Processing, Crafting). It takes a lot of time, but you can do it. That information is on the wikipedia pages for the game.
"... so this post is now a pitch to replace item decay in favour of RNG craft."
Absolutely not in favour of this "pitch". In my view item decay far out weighs a RNG systems. In fact, based on my experience playing AA and AAU, such a system will kill the game.
"... so this post is now a pitch to replace item decay in favour of RNG craft."
Absolutely not in favour of this "pitch". In my view item decay far out weighs a RNG systems. In fact, based on my experience playing AA and AAU, such a system will kill the game.
Ah i see that must be why there is such opposition, you played these "AA" and "AAU" which most likely sucked and one of the aspects in there was a crafting system similar to what i pitch for and you now are writing it off as a game killing idea Well why not make a counter argument of similar level and introduce you to AO (Atlantica online) and they also have durability(decay) system and look game is unplayable mess now, must be because of this durability right
But okay silly stuff aside we really need more info on how exactly item decay will work, if it's not too intrusive then yeah whatever, but if it's literally end game content crippling where I simply cannot afford to take my epic gear out of closet then it will suck big time. I still think if you have it then its yours attitude is better. Right now end game pitch is get your epics so you can break them to repair your existing epics vs craft your epics with mostly positive outcome about 60% chance.
Ah i see that must be why there is such opposition, you played these "AA" and "AAU" which most likely sucked and one of the aspects in there was a crafting system similar to what i pitch for and you now are writing it off as a game killing idea Well why not make a counter argument of similar level and introduce you to AO (Atlantica online) and they also have durability(decay) system and look game is unplayable mess now, must be because of this durability right
But okay silly stuff aside we really need more info on how exactly item decay will work, if it's not too intrusive then yeah whatever, but if it's literally end game content crippling where I simply cannot afford to take my epic gear out of closet then it will suck big time. I still think if you have it then its yours attitude is better. Right now end game pitch is get your epics so you can break them to repair your existing epics vs craft your epics with mostly positive outcome about 60% chance.
We do have information on how items decay, through dying and through use.
It’s not going to break with one death, it won’t break after one swing, and I’m 99.99% sure there will be a durability indicator that makes it obvious how close you are to breaking the item.
RNG systems suck ass. They remove player agency.
Lack of item removal systems also sucks ass. They remove the demand for crafters and stagnate the player-economy.
Both together is a terrible idea on a terrible idea.
2
MarzzoMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
No. RNG is never fun. It is frustrating. It makes me want to quit when I worked 10x harder than someone and still get worse results.
It makes me fell bad when I work 1/10 as hard as someone and till get better results.
We already have RNG in enchanting and getting crafting supplies, that is enough for me.
I disagree completely. I think item durability is a fine system, and I'd hate RNG in crafting. I like the idea of knowing exactly what I need to gather for the item I want to make and actually getting that item, not having a chance to get a slight bastardisation of the item I really wanted that I just have to get rid of and do all the gathering of materials again.
Black Desert has RNG, and it is among the top reasons people quite the game. RNG is absolutely horrible for most game mechanics, especially crafting. If I wanted an RNG game I'd go play a casino emulator .
Also, without Item Decay the economy eventually will collapse as there has to be a method for items to leave the market. Also, I really don't like the idea of "I got the most uber best gear in the game 40 days in, I'm done forever until the next update/expansion for gear". I much rather enjoy systems where things decay and armor/weapons/items are a non-permanent item. Keeps the economy healthy.
I think decay is alright. Yes, you will have a situation where an item you own no longer will be usable because you need to repair it. However, I see something interesting in that.
Players would have to have a range of items that they use for certain occasions. Your legendary boss drops / high value craftables would be considered prized possessions, so when you see a group of people equipped with top tier stuff you know they mean business.
If it doesn't add gameplay variety I don't want more RNG. Roguelikes? More pls. MMO gear? Less please. In a world as player driven as this one I think my character can tell the blacksmith, leatherworker, etc. how to craft the gear to fit my fighting style. Way more interesting that way.
Comments
No item decay will just leave a bunch of unused items around in the world that will have no value. It means the whole 'repair my items and need materials to do that' goes away and they have to change a lot of how the economy and crafting system and how they work. I am just saying, it won't happen.
As i said in my first reply, there is already a minimal amount of rng but it is suplementary because of how artisans are meant to interact with each other and how the developers envision the economy to work.
Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft
RNG means there is no involvement from you so why would I approach you? If you can not, I repeat, *CAN NOT* guarantee what I want then you will not be approached. I'd find other ways to achieve it.
No, you can master all professions under an Artisan Path (Gathering, Processing, Crafting). It takes a lot of time, but you can do it. That information is on the wikipedia pages for the game.
Right under Artisan Mastery https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Artisan_classes
Well as you level up and find / craft better gear you sell your old one in auction house. The whole grind for craft comes at the endgame, until then there is no point in crafting just go to auction house to buy someones elses stuff... Once players hit level ceiling then crafting is the next best thing. What will be next best thing currently with item decay? Constant requirement to grind to find items to fix my ever breaking items?
Think about end game only, there is either 30 people raid for some epic boss to drop an item you want or there is a craft. Say boss respawn is once every 24+- 6 hours, so that's 12 hour window you need to be awake/ available and ready (with a team) to get it and then RB drop rate is not 100% either and its 29 others like you wanting same item. Crafting my friend is the way to get what you want but it must NOT be 100% chance
Well, yes, kinda constant grind either by you or other players to find the materials you need to repair an item. If you are a crafter you can't mine or process it and vice versa if you are one of the other 2. If the game depended on RNG to craft those items, then at some point everyone who needed those items will have them whereas with a decay system, if you can't be bothered to get those materials either by gathering or processing, you will eventually lose that item or you will be unable to use it because it's at 0 durability.
I see where you are coming from. The way they envision the economy and the game dynamic is different though, so an RNG system won't really work.
This pretty mutch.
RNG Ruined crafting for me in black desert.
I hated how mutch time i spend gathering the materials only to have them wast on some dice roll.
So please no RNG in crafting.
I remember trying to craft items in L2 and failing. The game being such a grind in every aspect.
The rarer the item, the more the demand the more the players are interested in it the more PVP! And for open world game it could be quite the benefit really. Would be good to get an actual reply from someone from design team and share their philosophy on item decay and non rng craft and what end game will be all about. I still don't like the idea of breaking stuff to fix stuff, id much rather grind for something and fail to craft it, than to break it on purpose.
Yeah and also hate challenges and hate grind and hate pvp and hate real graphics and hate cartoony graphics, hate wow, hate l2...ah man where do even stop. One thing is for sure though devs should never try to please everyone, that is a recipe for a fail as people will always be unhappy. Me, for example, i hate the idea of decay and love idea of RNG Craft.
And it seems a minority.
Item decay is required to keep the crafting economy in motion. If gear never needs to be repaired or replaced, crafting becomes an unviable playstyle, and IS want it to be genuinely rewarding to master artisan classes.
Players must choose a path in the artisan skill tree for each character.[28] Within each of the three parent artisan paths (Gathering, Processing and Crafting) there are different professions. A character may only ever master one of these paths.[29][30]
Not quite
Given it says directly in that quote that you can master an artisan path, I’d say you probably should read that wiki again.
Go look at the live-streams, there’s one that specifically mentioned players would be able to master the entire path given enough time and dedication. Personally I wouldn’t allow that, but I don’t get the final say there.
Mate, I play tabletop games all the time I love and hate RNG I was just commenting on peoples view
Item decay is designed to remove items from the game in late games stages. If you get an item and never have to replace it the crafters eventually run out of stuff to build.
That sounds EXACTLY like what the devs said they want to avoid. They want to increase interaction, not kill it off. I mean, there is a reason they are going without dungeon finder.
The link you provided literally says otherwise my man.
Edit: I misread your original quote. Yes you can master a PATH.
Absolutely not in favour of this "pitch". In my view item decay far out weighs a RNG systems. In fact, based on my experience playing AA and AAU, such a system will kill the game.
Whats AA and AAU?
But okay silly stuff aside we really need more info on how exactly item decay will work, if it's not too intrusive then yeah whatever, but if it's literally end game content crippling where I simply cannot afford to take my epic gear out of closet then it will suck big time. I still think if you have it then its yours attitude is better. Right now end game pitch is get your epics so you can break them to repair your existing epics vs craft your epics with mostly positive outcome about 60% chance.
We do have information on how items decay, through dying and through use.
It’s not going to break with one death, it won’t break after one swing, and I’m 99.99% sure there will be a durability indicator that makes it obvious how close you are to breaking the item.
RNG systems suck ass. They remove player agency.
Lack of item removal systems also sucks ass. They remove the demand for crafters and stagnate the player-economy.
Both together is a terrible idea on a terrible idea.
It makes me fell bad when I work 1/10 as hard as someone and till get better results.
We already have RNG in enchanting and getting crafting supplies, that is enough for me.
Also, without Item Decay the economy eventually will collapse as there has to be a method for items to leave the market. Also, I really don't like the idea of "I got the most uber best gear in the game 40 days in, I'm done forever until the next update/expansion for gear". I much rather enjoy systems where things decay and armor/weapons/items are a non-permanent item. Keeps the economy healthy.
Players would have to have a range of items that they use for certain occasions. Your legendary boss drops / high value craftables would be considered prized possessions, so when you see a group of people equipped with top tier stuff you know they mean business.